CLN COA routings
Thread Starter
CLN COA routings
A couple of times in recent months when I've filed CLN L608 SASKI L179 COA at FL90, a routing accepted by IFPS/CFMU. Approaching CLN I've been told to route to REDFA, and when I've queried this, a routing via SASKI as planned is given, presumably after conversation with Brussels.
What's the reason for the confusion here? Is the route only available at lower levels hence traffic usually goes via REDFA? Or something else? Does the FPL route show up on ATC's display?
Worth noting that, as has been previously discussed at length on this forum, because of the possibility of comms failure, I cannot accept a clearance that takes me away from my flight planned route without an onward routing that takes me back to it at some point.
What's the reason for the confusion here? Is the route only available at lower levels hence traffic usually goes via REDFA? Or something else? Does the FPL route show up on ATC's display?
Worth noting that, as has been previously discussed at length on this forum, because of the possibility of comms failure, I cannot accept a clearance that takes me away from my flight planned route without an onward routing that takes me back to it at some point.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Hants, UK
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The answer might be quite simple:
99.9% of the traffic going eastbound through the sector you are talking to goes to REDFA or SOMVA. Very rarely does anything turn right at CLN and go towards COA. So unless the controller is on the ball, he/she might not notice your planned route and automatically send you to REFDA. It is only when you query the clearance that the penny drops.
By the way, the airways are shown on the controller's strips, but there are so many different combinations that it is not always obvious which way the aircraft will go in practice.
We also have exit codes on the radar which show us where to point the aircraft. Via REDFA is it AM (for Amsterdam control), but I can't remember which it is via COA (AS or EB depending on destination?).
99.9% of the traffic going eastbound through the sector you are talking to goes to REDFA or SOMVA. Very rarely does anything turn right at CLN and go towards COA. So unless the controller is on the ball, he/she might not notice your planned route and automatically send you to REFDA. It is only when you query the clearance that the penny drops.
By the way, the airways are shown on the controller's strips, but there are so many different combinations that it is not always obvious which way the aircraft will go in practice.
We also have exit codes on the radar which show us where to point the aircraft. Via REDFA is it AM (for Amsterdam control), but I can't remember which it is via COA (AS or EB depending on destination?).
Thread Starter
What is your destination ??
99.9% of the traffic going eastbound through the sector you are talking to goes to REDFA or SOMVA.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: london
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
L179 eastbound via Saski is available to traffic as long as it files FL 110 or below but only if you are inbound to a handful of destinations (cant remember what they are off hand there is about six or so in the brussels area). They will show a C3 exit code on the TC radars, if you dont meet these criteria it will throw out a route via redfa normally with a AM code on the radar.
So the controllers will route you according to what in fo they have. If you meet all the parameters no coord with brussels is required if you dont its not impossible but we have to check its ok with Brussels.
Clear as mud.......
probably...
So the controllers will route you according to what in fo they have. If you meet all the parameters no coord with brussels is required if you dont its not impossible but we have to check its ok with Brussels.
Clear as mud.......
probably...
Thread Starter
Regarding CLN L608 SUMUM L179 COA...
The UK AIP gives
For flight planning purposes AWY L608 above FL 110, is
for westbound flights only, exceptionally ATC may clear
tfc eastbound.
The UK RAD has no eastbound restrictions.
The Dutch AIP gives:
Flights intending to follow L179 eastbound will have to acquire prior permission from Brussels ACC to fly above FL 110.
L179 is not AVBL for traffic with DEST EGKK, EGHH or EGHI. This traffic shall route via L610.
though strangely it does give a minimum flight altitude of FL100, even though the airway base is FL55.
The Dutch RAD has:
L179 SASKI-NIK Not available for traffic Dest. EBBRTMA (EH**2007)
The Belgian AIP is silent, and its RAD has no eastbound restrictions.
The CFMU Environment section on the CIA gives L179 available FL55 to FL195, but L608 only FL55 to FL115.
IFPUV seems to permit eastbound flights up to FL110, and indeed my FPL was accepted at FL090 and CFMU's flight route was CLN LOGAN SUMUM SASKI COA.
So I think, LG52TYT, you're either mistaken about the Brussels area destinations, or your computers are inconsistent with CFMU's and the RADs.
The UK AIP gives
For flight planning purposes AWY L608 above FL 110, is
for westbound flights only, exceptionally ATC may clear
tfc eastbound.
The UK RAD has no eastbound restrictions.
The Dutch AIP gives:
Flights intending to follow L179 eastbound will have to acquire prior permission from Brussels ACC to fly above FL 110.
L179 is not AVBL for traffic with DEST EGKK, EGHH or EGHI. This traffic shall route via L610.
though strangely it does give a minimum flight altitude of FL100, even though the airway base is FL55.
The Dutch RAD has:
L179 SASKI-NIK Not available for traffic Dest. EBBRTMA (EH**2007)
The Belgian AIP is silent, and its RAD has no eastbound restrictions.
The CFMU Environment section on the CIA gives L179 available FL55 to FL195, but L608 only FL55 to FL115.
IFPUV seems to permit eastbound flights up to FL110, and indeed my FPL was accepted at FL090 and CFMU's flight route was CLN LOGAN SUMUM SASKI COA.
So I think, LG52TYT, you're either mistaken about the Brussels area destinations, or your computers are inconsistent with CFMU's and the RADs.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: london
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i Work the sector your flight would route through so i can assure you we do get aircraft filing via saski at 110 and below and provided it meets the requirements of our instructions the appropriate strips and radar display will be produced. However for whatever reasons best known to others sometimes a perfectly good flight plan will give us strips and radar info via redfa?? go figure.
If everything is ok the flight data is sent straight to brussels and we transfer you without the need for co ordination. (the initial part of the airways at saski etc east of the fir boundary although in brussels and dutch airspace are delegated back to certain london sectors)
If everything is ok the flight data is sent straight to brussels and we transfer you without the need for co ordination. (the initial part of the airways at saski etc east of the fir boundary although in brussels and dutch airspace are delegated back to certain london sectors)
Thread Starter
Thanks LG52TYT.
So, any idea who I should talk to to get this fixed?
However for whatever reasons best known to others sometimes a perfectly good flight plan will give us strips and radar info via redfa??
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: london
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i guess you could speak to london flight planning people and see if they can check that when the plan is in that the computer hasnt rerouted it for any reason. We can even have problems rerouting it when its active. I am no expert on how that part of the system works but can see if anyone else has any ideas.
Sorry all i can do is explain what happens and not offer a solution.
Sorry all i can do is explain what happens and not offer a solution.
