Heathrow Runway Questions???
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Heathrow Runway Questions+one more!!!
Just a question, Ive heard that they change the Runways about 1500 each day?
The Runway that runs along (Bath Road) where all the Hotels are ie, Travel Inn, Renaissance etc is there a set time daily when that one is in use for Landings?
Thanks
The Runway that runs along (Bath Road) where all the Hotels are ie, Travel Inn, Renaissance etc is there a set time daily when that one is in use for Landings?
Thanks
Last edited by J32/41; 8th Sep 2005 at 14:29.
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When Heathrow is landing towards the west, ie a/c coming from the London direction, one runway is used for landing from early morning until 3pm and the other for take-off. At 3pm they are swapped for the rest of the day. That situation exists for one week and the next week the other runway starts the day as the landing runway until 3pm, etc, etc,
When they are approaching from the opposite direction the northerly runway, alongside the A4, is always used for landings unles there are special circumstances.
When they are approaching from the opposite direction the northerly runway, alongside the A4, is always used for landings unles there are special circumstances.
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That situation exists for one week and the next week the other runway starts the day as the landing runway until 3pm, etc, etc,
Is there a quick rule of thumb for the landing runway. At 52 weeks in the year is the best rule simply odd weeks = 27L or something like that?
Understand changeover day is Thursday, when runways used the same all day long (ie departures on 27R Mon, Tue, Wed mornings, Thursday all day, Fri, Sat, Sun afternoons, etc)
Interesting to be in the Pink Elephant car park alongside the northerly runway at 1500 and see the changeover, last one landing and already a queue for departure. I have wondered if there are ever any left in the queue for departure when the landers start (not wishing to imply that HD would ever have got it wrong !). Do they have to then trundle over to the other runway and join the queue again ?
Interesting to be in the Pink Elephant car park alongside the northerly runway at 1500 and see the changeover, last one landing and already a queue for departure. I have wondered if there are ever any left in the queue for departure when the landers start (not wishing to imply that HD would ever have got it wrong !). Do they have to then trundle over to the other runway and join the queue again ?
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The changeover occurs each Monday morning, not Thursday. This week the morning landing runway is 27R (the northern runway) and at 3pm it changes to 27L. Next Monday morning (12th Sept) the landing runway will be 27L, changing to 27R at 3pm, etc. The programme can be forecast months in advance. However, a variety of things may occur to disrupt the alternation but they don't happen too often. There is also a procedure when long delays build up to use both runways for landing.
On no day does the procedure call for the same runway to be used for landings all day but situations may arise when the alternation procedure is disrupted, perhaps for days at a time, but when everything is operating normally the programme will be adhered to.
Remember that on "easterlies" - when landing from the west - the landing runway will always be 09L, except under certain conditions (runway closed, etc).
Runway alternation is no big deal and is usually achieved on time. However, do remember that a huge operation like Heathrow can have a million things go wrong, but I never recall having to send departures from one holding point to the other.
On no day does the procedure call for the same runway to be used for landings all day but situations may arise when the alternation procedure is disrupted, perhaps for days at a time, but when everything is operating normally the programme will be adhered to.
Remember that on "easterlies" - when landing from the west - the landing runway will always be 09L, except under certain conditions (runway closed, etc).
Runway alternation is no big deal and is usually achieved on time. However, do remember that a huge operation like Heathrow can have a million things go wrong, but I never recall having to send departures from one holding point to the other.
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Always meant to ask, why is there no alternation between 09L and 09R?
I've taken off from 09L twice in three years due to WIP or a blocked 09R but it is an unusual occurence. I have landed on 09R a few times early in the morning (usually by asking nicely) but it's not regular.
I've taken off from 09L twice in three years due to WIP or a blocked 09R but it is an unusual occurence. I have landed on 09R a few times early in the morning (usually by asking nicely) but it's not regular.
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The use of 09L for departures is covered by an agreement called the 'Cranford Agreement'
Due to the close proximity of housing at the eastern end of the runway it is considered that departing traffic from 09L would create an intolerable level of noise for local residents when on Easterly operations.
Therefore, 09L is only used for arrivals unless there are exceptional circumstances; I believe one such instance happened recently following overnight work on 09R that resulted in the runway being unusable for departures for a period.
Although as the link below indicates, there may be some discussion about this.
Recent Dft letter regarding Cranford Agreement
Due to the close proximity of housing at the eastern end of the runway it is considered that departing traffic from 09L would create an intolerable level of noise for local residents when on Easterly operations.
Therefore, 09L is only used for arrivals unless there are exceptional circumstances; I believe one such instance happened recently following overnight work on 09R that resulted in the runway being unusable for departures for a period.
Although as the link below indicates, there may be some discussion about this.
Recent Dft letter regarding Cranford Agreement
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HF,
Due to the Cranford agreement forcing us to use 09R for deps, you might have noticed that 09R has no high speed exit, and the exits that do exist are not optimally positioned. Therefore if we ever go single runway on 09R, we have to add a mile (or more) to each gap than if we were 27L/R single.
Mocoman,
Yes, some concrete hadn't set in time, and 09R was available for departure only from S6 on the south side, which off the top of my head gives maybe 1600m. Landings on 09L, departures that could take the reduced distance were crossing to the south side and departing 09R, and those that needed a longer TORA/ASDA were going off 09L.
Ground was fun, to say the least!
Due to the Cranford agreement forcing us to use 09R for deps, you might have noticed that 09R has no high speed exit, and the exits that do exist are not optimally positioned. Therefore if we ever go single runway on 09R, we have to add a mile (or more) to each gap than if we were 27L/R single.
Mocoman,
Yes, some concrete hadn't set in time, and 09R was available for departure only from S6 on the south side, which off the top of my head gives maybe 1600m. Landings on 09L, departures that could take the reduced distance were crossing to the south side and departing 09R, and those that needed a longer TORA/ASDA were going off 09L.
Ground was fun, to say the least!
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<<Crumbs Gonzo, you mean the turn-offs on 09L are optimised!!...?>>
If I recall correctly, Giles, the turn-offs were OK... but some of the pilots weren't optimised!!
If I recall correctly, Giles, the turn-offs were OK... but some of the pilots weren't optimised!!
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Just another question guys as Iam staying at the Renaissance tomorrow night is there anyway of finding out as early as possible if they will be using the Runway outside the Hotel for landings?
Thanks
Thanks
With regards to the question about co-ordination of the 1500 swap-over I think I'm correct in saying that it would be unlikely that departing aircraft still left in the queue would have to be sent to the other runway as there is a lull in arrivals at this time meaning that it would be possible to get the odd departure away in between arrivals.
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Well, 27R is active landing this afternoon for westerlies after 1500L so it looks like you might be lucky.
(Although they may be out of sequence for some reason; must admit I was expecting 27L for westerly afternoon landings this week)
And even if it goes back to Easterlies again you'll be on the right side as well.
(Although they may be out of sequence for some reason; must admit I was expecting 27L for westerly afternoon landings this week)
And even if it goes back to Easterlies again you'll be on the right side as well.
Last edited by mocoman; 8th Sep 2005 at 16:11.
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Doors to automatic... You are right that any remaining departures could use the runway they were holding for. However, this occurs very rarely. The radar controllers liaise with the tower controllers and advise them which will be the last lander and the first for the other runway. In the tower, the ground controllers allow enough aircraft at the holding point of the departure runway so the last one goes just before 1500. Approach Radar positions the first lander for the "new" landing runway so that it is about 3 miles out as the last departure is going..
As I said earlier, things can happen to screw the system but under normal procedures that's what happens.
As I said earlier, things can happen to screw the system but under normal procedures that's what happens.
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shurly shome mishtake 
(Cranford is at the EASTERN end of 09L/27R)
The runway alternation is not really noise limitation, rather more like noise management. Westerly operations alternate to give the folks of Cranford and other local environs a degree of respite during at least some of the time by ensuring that arrivals use the southern runway for half the day when on westerly ops.
I would be interested though to see comparative studies of sound levels produced by the air traffic of today compared to that in the past.
While the instantial sound level of each movement must surely have reduced, the frequency has certainly increased vastly. At what point would a reduced noise level be balanced by the increased frequency of events?
Maybe this kind of research might support a relaxation of the Cranford Agreement (which dates back to 1952 remember ) for some kinds of operational techniques; short-hauls allowable departing from 09L for example.
(Cranford is at the EASTERN end of 09L/27R)
The runway alternation is not really noise limitation, rather more like noise management. Westerly operations alternate to give the folks of Cranford and other local environs a degree of respite during at least some of the time by ensuring that arrivals use the southern runway for half the day when on westerly ops.
I would be interested though to see comparative studies of sound levels produced by the air traffic of today compared to that in the past.
While the instantial sound level of each movement must surely have reduced, the frequency has certainly increased vastly. At what point would a reduced noise level be balanced by the increased frequency of events?
Maybe this kind of research might support a relaxation of the Cranford Agreement (which dates back to 1952 remember
) for some kinds of operational techniques; short-hauls allowable departing from 09L for example.
Last edited by mocoman; 8th Sep 2005 at 21:19.