Short cuts: What's in it for me?
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Join Date: Feb 2001
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Short cuts: What's in it for me?
Could someone tell me who I should go and see to claim my free upgrades, free tickets etc, because I have saved "XYZ" airline a fortune by giving short cuts every day?
It seems odd (but feel free to give your tuppence worth) that I am expected to work harder (coordinating, scan for extra conflicts, pass revisions, anticipate new climb and descent profiles...) just so that an aircraft can "catch up because we're running late, today" (same as yesterday and the day before...)
Yet any time that I queried about an upgrade, or fam flight, or concession....Sorry, we're not allowed to do that!; It's up to the FSD/ CSD / Gate supervisor/ Duty manager....
In fact everyone but the people I talk to each day when I am doing more than my jobs worth!!!
And if this isn't possible, could I arrange for a percentage of the bonus pilots get for saving fuel by hassling controllers?
Honestly, you would think it was your own money you were spending, the way you can bombard an overworked controller by "Can we route direct...", "Can we fly to ...", stamping on other calls, interfering with readbacks...
There's usually a very good reason why we, as controllers don't give you short cuts! It's called "other aircraft"!!!
You do realise that there is more than one of you out there don't you? Honest?
Well, could you please remember that next time?
Regards,
IF2
It seems odd (but feel free to give your tuppence worth) that I am expected to work harder (coordinating, scan for extra conflicts, pass revisions, anticipate new climb and descent profiles...) just so that an aircraft can "catch up because we're running late, today" (same as yesterday and the day before...)
Yet any time that I queried about an upgrade, or fam flight, or concession....Sorry, we're not allowed to do that!; It's up to the FSD/ CSD / Gate supervisor/ Duty manager....
In fact everyone but the people I talk to each day when I am doing more than my jobs worth!!!
And if this isn't possible, could I arrange for a percentage of the bonus pilots get for saving fuel by hassling controllers?
Honestly, you would think it was your own money you were spending, the way you can bombard an overworked controller by "Can we route direct...", "Can we fly to ...", stamping on other calls, interfering with readbacks...
There's usually a very good reason why we, as controllers don't give you short cuts! It's called "other aircraft"!!!
You do realise that there is more than one of you out there don't you? Honest?
Well, could you please remember that next time?
Regards,
IF2
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carnage Matey...
Think you're barking up the wrong tree with that one!
Firstly, I personally think that "expedite" should be removed from ICAO phraseology. It means absolutely nothing!
Previous rate of climb...100ft per min.
expedite...new rate of climb 101ft per min...
Secondly, by obeying an ATC instruction, you are helping yourself and other aircraft out...not the controllers!
You think we get bonuses for vectoring aircraft or number of transmissions we can make?
Methinks you are one of them people I was reffering to...???
(Spot on Del Prado!!!)
regards,
IF2
Think you're barking up the wrong tree with that one!
Firstly, I personally think that "expedite" should be removed from ICAO phraseology. It means absolutely nothing!
Previous rate of climb...100ft per min.
expedite...new rate of climb 101ft per min...
Secondly, by obeying an ATC instruction, you are helping yourself and other aircraft out...not the controllers!
You think we get bonuses for vectoring aircraft or number of transmissions we can make?
Methinks you are one of them people I was reffering to...???
(Spot on Del Prado!!!)
regards,
IF2
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As a pilot, yes I'm asking for shortcuts. Even if I'm already on overtime.
Means, I'm working against my purse.
So what? It's for the benefit of our passengers (most of the time we are late, aren't we?) and my company (fuel, blocktime).
regards
Means, I'm working against my purse.
So what? It's for the benefit of our passengers (most of the time we are late, aren't we?) and my company (fuel, blocktime).
regards
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
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I work on the principle that if a short-cut is available, then generally I'll get it. However, to ask is demeaning and rankles with the controllers.
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Makes me laugh! Coming out of TFS all the Jetsets etc pleading for short cuts, saves at least 5 mins on their return flight. Chill out you lot!! Who are you trying to save money for? The management who would shaft you at the drop of a hat aren't worth it. Bimble home at ECON speed, save the planet and reduce your blood presure.
G+20. How right you are!
G+20. How right you are!
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ItchyFeet, I am one guilty of asking for 'direct' etc when possible, provided the distance shortened and the change in groundspeed are favourable. At 60$ a barrel for oil, I am probably more often looking for the shortcuts...what til the doomsday sayers are proved correct and oil goes up even higher...I'll be even more of a pain in the...
I've taken to telling my First Officers of late that my justification for the increase in radio traffic by doing so, is that (atleast here in Canada) the Air Navigation system is a 'user (the Airline) pay' system. Therefore, for our company's money spent, I want a high level of service. As well, I like to mention that one of the prime movers in switching to RVSM (and the risk associated with decreased separation), was the increase of direct routings etc, thereby saving the airline industry, and hence the travelling public more money and time. I like to avail myself of those benefits...
I'll have to be honest that at the outfit I work at, we gain monetarily from our company's financial fortunes, so I might have a stronger motive than some. The reality is though, that as PROFESSIONAL pilots, part our profession is to be efficient as possible, within the guidelines of something we call airmanship.
Some might even defend decreased fuel burnt with decreased hydrocarbons deposited in the atmosphere. Some might, but I won't for now.
I might add that there is a time and place for everything, and experience continues to educate me when that right time to make requests is. The controllers here are generally quite helpful when they can be. Most of the time I actually feel like a part of a large team when integrating my own flight within the big ATC system.
Anyway Itchy, those our my two cents. Hope this helped clarify part of the issue.
JD
I've taken to telling my First Officers of late that my justification for the increase in radio traffic by doing so, is that (atleast here in Canada) the Air Navigation system is a 'user (the Airline) pay' system. Therefore, for our company's money spent, I want a high level of service. As well, I like to mention that one of the prime movers in switching to RVSM (and the risk associated with decreased separation), was the increase of direct routings etc, thereby saving the airline industry, and hence the travelling public more money and time. I like to avail myself of those benefits...
I'll have to be honest that at the outfit I work at, we gain monetarily from our company's financial fortunes, so I might have a stronger motive than some. The reality is though, that as PROFESSIONAL pilots, part our profession is to be efficient as possible, within the guidelines of something we call airmanship.
Some might even defend decreased fuel burnt with decreased hydrocarbons deposited in the atmosphere. Some might, but I won't for now.
I might add that there is a time and place for everything, and experience continues to educate me when that right time to make requests is. The controllers here are generally quite helpful when they can be. Most of the time I actually feel like a part of a large team when integrating my own flight within the big ATC system.
Anyway Itchy, those our my two cents. Hope this helped clarify part of the issue.
JD
There was a time when a great deal more social contact existed between ATC, airline ops management and aircrews. They visited us, we visited them. We used to get free (yes FREE) flights and jump seats to boot. On the longer flights it gave both parties ample opportunity to exchange information and discuss their respective operational constraints. Much was learned by both sides. Today it’s virtually all gone. Itchy has a point, why bother anymore. Just do the job you’re paid for Itchy. Do it well but don’t stretch yourself beyond the call of duty. Neither airline managers nor your own ATC managers will thank you or reward you for it. This is the new world we work in, thanks to idiotic restrictions invented by morons in the name of security, and thanks to narrow minded beancounters running airlines and ATC. 
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did a deal a few months ago where london ATC offered to get me direct to the IAF in germany if I'd buy his mum and dad (who were in the back) a Gin and Tonic each!!!
best fiver I ever spent.
I tend not to ask for them too much as I think most UK ATCOs will try and do it anyway.
en-route short cuts are a great help and hugely appreciated. If we don't sound too greatful when we get them it's because we don't want to take up the airwaves sounding like a teenager saying thanks.....
as for upgrades I can't even get them
best fiver I ever spent.
I tend not to ask for them too much as I think most UK ATCOs will try and do it anyway.
en-route short cuts are a great help and hugely appreciated. If we don't sound too greatful when we get them it's because we don't want to take up the airwaves sounding like a teenager saying thanks.....
as for upgrades I can't even get them
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Maxy - Professionals - yes, and bloody proud of that. It is not, however, our job to provide direct routeings and shortcuts - no matter the reason for them being requested. come and take a visit one day and see how much is involved in your shortcut - the telephonecalls to co-ordinate (with usually more than 1 sector), the extra r/t that can be involved, sometimes re-routes and new strips are involved. All this while trying to keep a sector running as normal. Are the 20 miles saved worth it???
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Aye scotsman
Even freight takes priority over staff, who are on discounted tickets not freebes anymore. Third class seat if your not working your passage.
Directs are aways appreciated, but please wait to be offered don't harasse. Good r/t listen out etc and london atc please take a breath let us get a call in
Even freight takes priority over staff, who are on discounted tickets not freebes anymore. Third class seat if your not working your passage.
Directs are aways appreciated, but please wait to be offered don't harasse. Good r/t listen out etc and london atc please take a breath let us get a call in
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Seeing as ATC charges are usually based on aircraft weight, not distance flown or time in sector, by asking for direct we are actually costing our airline more in ATC charges due to burning off less fuel, generating more income for your employer, securing your job and giving you a better chance of a wage rise next year
IF2, I'm guessing you've had a hard day and just wanted to vent some steam, and we can all understand that. If we're asking for direct routings because we're running late or whatever it's because we want to get our passengers where they want to go with the minimum of inconvenience. They are the customer and they pay ALL our wages.
IF2, I'm guessing you've had a hard day and just wanted to vent some steam, and we can all understand that. If we're asking for direct routings because we're running late or whatever it's because we want to get our passengers where they want to go with the minimum of inconvenience. They are the customer and they pay ALL our wages.
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ItchyFeet2
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Yet any time that I queried about an upgrade, or fam flight, or concession....Sorry, we're not allowed to do that!; It's up to the FSD/ CSD / Gate supervisor/ Duty manager....
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Don’t worry we pilots don’t get anything from the airline either……
You have to be in management to get the little bonuses… But direct routings do get us home quicker… and we thank you all for that…Then we can knock off.
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Yet any time that I queried about an upgrade, or fam flight, or concession....Sorry, we're not allowed to do that!; It's up to the FSD/ CSD / Gate supervisor/ Duty manager....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don’t worry we pilots don’t get anything from the airline either……
You have to be in management to get the little bonuses… But direct routings do get us home quicker… and we thank you all for that…Then we can knock off.
Humus Motor
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Sorry to disillusion you - management don't get the perks either unless you are a CEO.
But the guy has a point - we don't liaise like we used to and we understand less and less about what each other is doing. I had the terrific experience of sitting next to a London TMA controller once - and I was utterly stunned at the pressure this lady was under - and completely in awe of how well she finessed it all. Since then I give a little brief-ette on how things are in the ATCC when my trainee asks for higher or a direct. Similarly, a controller on the jump seat once said to me that he was stunned to find out that my primary function wasn't just sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for his next call - I actually was quite busy, and he saw how calls could be missed.
If I had my way you'd tavel First every time - except hardly any of us have 'First' any more!
But the guy has a point - we don't liaise like we used to and we understand less and less about what each other is doing. I had the terrific experience of sitting next to a London TMA controller once - and I was utterly stunned at the pressure this lady was under - and completely in awe of how well she finessed it all. Since then I give a little brief-ette on how things are in the ATCC when my trainee asks for higher or a direct. Similarly, a controller on the jump seat once said to me that he was stunned to find out that my primary function wasn't just sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for his next call - I actually was quite busy, and he saw how calls could be missed.
If I had my way you'd tavel First every time - except hardly any of us have 'First' any more!