Short cuts: What's in it for me?
"Are the 20 miles saved worth it???"
20 miles, likely about two to three minutes saved. Consider larger airlines have a thousand to a couple of thousand departures a day. If even 25% save 2 to 3 minutes each flight, over the course of a year its going to save a lot of fuel/money. We are very careful about even running the APU let alone one of the engines when not needed. So, thanks for making all the calls to the other sectors along with all the other stuff needed to get a short cut, its appreciated.
20 miles, likely about two to three minutes saved. Consider larger airlines have a thousand to a couple of thousand departures a day. If even 25% save 2 to 3 minutes each flight, over the course of a year its going to save a lot of fuel/money. We are very careful about even running the APU let alone one of the engines when not needed. So, thanks for making all the calls to the other sectors along with all the other stuff needed to get a short cut, its appreciated.
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It's a shame you feel that way, IF2.
Not sure what centre you work at, but I feel your pain.
I work at Swanwick Centre in England, and control on two northern sectors. I regularly try and get a/c directs even if they don't ask, generally coz it means they're on my frequency for a shorter period of time. It benefits them, and me. It's a win-win situation.
I don't remember ever having any problems, or being over-loaded because of this. I certainly don't remember seeing an a/c change his climb rate because he's going direct. Maybe I'm not paying enough attention.
It's a real shame that you're only prepared to make those 8 second phone calls if there's something in it for you. I guess 70 grand a year isn't enough.
Not sure what centre you work at, but I feel your pain.
I work at Swanwick Centre in England, and control on two northern sectors. I regularly try and get a/c directs even if they don't ask, generally coz it means they're on my frequency for a shorter period of time. It benefits them, and me. It's a win-win situation.
I don't remember ever having any problems, or being over-loaded because of this. I certainly don't remember seeing an a/c change his climb rate because he's going direct. Maybe I'm not paying enough attention.
It's a real shame that you're only prepared to make those 8 second phone calls if there's something in it for you. I guess 70 grand a year isn't enough.
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Vasa
Seventy grand....you having a laugh?
What currency are you talking about?
One of the main gripes that pilots have about controllers is that controllers give instructions at the wrong time, and aren't aware of the workload of the pilots.
I must say, I completely agree with this statement!
The only way to solve this is for fam flights, where ATC actually see what pilots are doing during the different phases of flight!
These have long since gone and everyone thinks this is wrong, both pilots and ATC. But is anyone actually complaining to management about it?
Next time ATC does something you don't agree with, instead of giving out on freq, or muttering to fellow crew later...why not go to your ops department and arrange for your local ATC unit to have fam flights?
In the same way, most pilots I've talked to think it's a great idea to visit ATC units, to see what we are doing. To see why asking us for short cuts can be a right hassle.
But how many have actually done that? Very very few in my experience!
In a nut shell, unless ATC and flight crew know what is required from each other (and what not to ask for!!), the situation will get worse and worse!
Regards,
IF2
Seventy grand....you having a laugh?
What currency are you talking about?
One of the main gripes that pilots have about controllers is that controllers give instructions at the wrong time, and aren't aware of the workload of the pilots.
I must say, I completely agree with this statement!
The only way to solve this is for fam flights, where ATC actually see what pilots are doing during the different phases of flight!
These have long since gone and everyone thinks this is wrong, both pilots and ATC. But is anyone actually complaining to management about it?
Next time ATC does something you don't agree with, instead of giving out on freq, or muttering to fellow crew later...why not go to your ops department and arrange for your local ATC unit to have fam flights?
In the same way, most pilots I've talked to think it's a great idea to visit ATC units, to see what we are doing. To see why asking us for short cuts can be a right hassle.
But how many have actually done that? Very very few in my experience!
In a nut shell, unless ATC and flight crew know what is required from each other (and what not to ask for!!), the situation will get worse and worse!
Regards,
IF2
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Saddens me a bit, this thread. I spent my whole working life trying to provide the best service to aircraft, irrespective of the airline, because that was part of my job (Safe and EXPEDITIOUS flow of traffic it used to say).
As for cheapy flights - I got one freebie from South African Airways when they had that special deal for ATCOs many years ago... and have had one paid-for flight through UKATTS. For those I am eternally grateful, but didn't look on either as something I deserved. Oh yes.. a Concorde Captain bunged us a bottle of fizz when I gave him a fighter circuit at Heathrow one evening..
Methinks things are a-changing...
As for cheapy flights - I got one freebie from South African Airways when they had that special deal for ATCOs many years ago... and have had one paid-for flight through UKATTS. For those I am eternally grateful, but didn't look on either as something I deserved. Oh yes.. a Concorde Captain bunged us a bottle of fizz when I gave him a fighter circuit at Heathrow one evening..
Methinks things are a-changing...
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Personally, I very rarely ask for a short cut. The one situation when I will is if I am weather avoiding and the waypoint in question is a convenient way of describing where I want to go - e.g. "request right 15 for weather or direct XYZ would keep us clear".
I figure ATC know their chunk of the sky better than I do and will give me a direct when its possible and practical. Inevitably though you end up flying with people who are never happy unless they are badgering ATC for shortcuts, and you then spend a fair chunk of time reining them in - often because the proposed shortcut is clearly impractical, or the extra RT on a busy sector is clearly inappropriate.
I can understand why they feel that way though - because one often hears people requesting a direct and getting it. To the ATCers, I have to say though there is an element of making a rod for your own backs here - if lots of people in your sector are asking for directs and you are granting them, it kind of means you've lost the initiative in who is running your chunk of airspace. A few 'negatives' might put the ball back in your court.
Personally, the one piece of RT that just makes my eyes roll is "we're running late, any chance of direct XYZ?". Its either available or it isn't. Who cares if you're late - normally we all are! Or do they expect ATC to shove people out of the way?
Let the controllers do their jobs with as little hassle as possible. Thats my policy. Seems to work, most of the routes I fly on a regular basis I know well, and the directs generally come at the same point whether we ask or not.
CPB
I figure ATC know their chunk of the sky better than I do and will give me a direct when its possible and practical. Inevitably though you end up flying with people who are never happy unless they are badgering ATC for shortcuts, and you then spend a fair chunk of time reining them in - often because the proposed shortcut is clearly impractical, or the extra RT on a busy sector is clearly inappropriate.
I can understand why they feel that way though - because one often hears people requesting a direct and getting it. To the ATCers, I have to say though there is an element of making a rod for your own backs here - if lots of people in your sector are asking for directs and you are granting them, it kind of means you've lost the initiative in who is running your chunk of airspace. A few 'negatives' might put the ball back in your court.
Personally, the one piece of RT that just makes my eyes roll is "we're running late, any chance of direct XYZ?". Its either available or it isn't. Who cares if you're late - normally we all are! Or do they expect ATC to shove people out of the way?
Let the controllers do their jobs with as little hassle as possible. Thats my policy. Seems to work, most of the routes I fly on a regular basis I know well, and the directs generally come at the same point whether we ask or not.
CPB
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Fam flights have not long gone - they just require a few more phone calls/e-mails than in the good old days. Personal contact makes all the difference, you can't just wait for your line manager to do it on your behalf anymore.
I don't like asking for directs much - after years flying up and down europe one knows where the shortcuts are likely to appear, and where they are not. When asked to request a direct by P2, we often have a quick discussion about the airspace, R/T workload any other things, and if the request was just because he's
After several visits to LTCC and LACC I appreciate the workload often undergone by controllers, but sometimes if the frequency is quiet and a shortcut is suggesting itself (maybe late at night, or Wx on track) I will make a request for a direct routing.
And it is just that - a request. I have no knowledge at that time of all the factors affecting the possibility of being granted the direct or not - if I did have such a crystal ball, we wouldn't need ATCOs in the first place! So until I ask I don't really know what the chances are. If you can't do it, for reasons including, but not limited to, workload, danger areas, other traffic, etc etc, then say "Negative". That's all I require.
I believe it is in fact an indication of the professionalism of the majority of ATCOs out there, that they feel obliged to explain why they can't grant a direct. Any stress they feel resulting from these denied requests could quite possibly stem from the feeling that they have been unable to complete the 'task' to as high a standard as they would like (known as the "Zeigarnik effect", I think).
Same (to a certain extent) with wx avoidance. We ask, you say No, we have to think of Plan B. If things are that desperate that there is no Plan B - we'll tell you so, or divert. Not convenient, but hopefully never unsafe.
Unlike asking for credit at my local, a refusal never offends. Though neither should the request.
I don't like asking for directs much - after years flying up and down europe one knows where the shortcuts are likely to appear, and where they are not. When asked to request a direct by P2, we often have a quick discussion about the airspace, R/T workload any other things, and if the request was just because he's
After several visits to LTCC and LACC I appreciate the workload often undergone by controllers, but sometimes if the frequency is quiet and a shortcut is suggesting itself (maybe late at night, or Wx on track) I will make a request for a direct routing.
And it is just that - a request. I have no knowledge at that time of all the factors affecting the possibility of being granted the direct or not - if I did have such a crystal ball, we wouldn't need ATCOs in the first place! So until I ask I don't really know what the chances are. If you can't do it, for reasons including, but not limited to, workload, danger areas, other traffic, etc etc, then say "Negative". That's all I require.
I believe it is in fact an indication of the professionalism of the majority of ATCOs out there, that they feel obliged to explain why they can't grant a direct. Any stress they feel resulting from these denied requests could quite possibly stem from the feeling that they have been unable to complete the 'task' to as high a standard as they would like (known as the "Zeigarnik effect", I think).
Same (to a certain extent) with wx avoidance. We ask, you say No, we have to think of Plan B. If things are that desperate that there is no Plan B - we'll tell you so, or divert. Not convenient, but hopefully never unsafe.
Unlike asking for credit at my local, a refusal never offends. Though neither should the request.
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IF2,
since top of the scale at LACC, with shift pay etc, is about £78,000, no, I'm not having a laugh.
I get the impression that you're not long valid. My point was that if giving a direct causes you a problem, just don't give it. And maybe give a reason why not, rather than just sounding obnoxious.
I'm just not sure why you're getting so worked up about a problem that's so trivial.
since top of the scale at LACC, with shift pay etc, is about £78,000, no, I'm not having a laugh.
I get the impression that you're not long valid. My point was that if giving a direct causes you a problem, just don't give it. And maybe give a reason why not, rather than just sounding obnoxious.
I'm just not sure why you're getting so worked up about a problem that's so trivial.
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I asked a controller,(london sector 290 to SFD) going into CDG "IF" he knew which runway they were using .Seemed to really hack him off.
We were out of CDG atis range and our met showed 03 kts vrb,the fo wasnt familliar with CDG and wanted to get his brief done early.I didnt want this guy to go off and find out for us a simple no would have sufficed.
Should we not ask these questions now either?
We were out of CDG atis range and our met showed 03 kts vrb,the fo wasnt familliar with CDG and wanted to get his brief done early.I didnt want this guy to go off and find out for us a simple no would have sufficed.
Should we not ask these questions now either?
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Guys,
Absolutely no problem with asking for a direct ..... but if the answer in 'negative', for goodness sake drop the conversation. Standard pactice with us is, if the airspace is ours to use, you'll get direct as a matter of course (no pun intended). We have had a couple of instances in the past two weeks of crew continuing to bitch and moan on the frequency upon refusal of a direct routeing or position in a sequence. Both involved airlines who are 'local' so to speak and should know the score as regards airspace structure and traffic demands. We don't have time for this crap. Apart from the unprofessional angle, it doesn't do much except ruin everybody's day and leave a pretty negative image of the company concerned.
Absolutely no problem with asking for a direct ..... but if the answer in 'negative', for goodness sake drop the conversation. Standard pactice with us is, if the airspace is ours to use, you'll get direct as a matter of course (no pun intended). We have had a couple of instances in the past two weeks of crew continuing to bitch and moan on the frequency upon refusal of a direct routeing or position in a sequence. Both involved airlines who are 'local' so to speak and should know the score as regards airspace structure and traffic demands. We don't have time for this crap. Apart from the unprofessional angle, it doesn't do much except ruin everybody's day and leave a pretty negative image of the company concerned.
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nitefiter:
From LACC point of view, the only runway-in-use information we have instantly available is:
EGLL
EGKK
EGSS
EGCC
EGBB
EGGW
and even the last two are not always updated very quickly.
For any others, we either:
have to look up the latest METAR on our system and make a guess based upon the wind there (but you could do that as you say) and also we do not know all the available runways and which is in use (take AMS as an example).
or:
have to phone up the relevant centre or unit and ask them. This of course takes time and could interfere with the other tasks a planner has to do. The planner then has to pass that information to the Tactical and they have to transmit it to you.
But you are of course right:"a simple no would have sufficed."
From LACC point of view, the only runway-in-use information we have instantly available is:
EGLL
EGKK
EGSS
EGCC
EGBB
EGGW
and even the last two are not always updated very quickly.
For any others, we either:
have to look up the latest METAR on our system and make a guess based upon the wind there (but you could do that as you say) and also we do not know all the available runways and which is in use (take AMS as an example).
or:
have to phone up the relevant centre or unit and ask them. This of course takes time and could interfere with the other tasks a planner has to do. The planner then has to pass that information to the Tactical and they have to transmit it to you.
But you are of course right:"a simple no would have sufficed."
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The only thing I feel entitled to after giving a direct routing, particularly one that was requested by a pilot, is a simple thank you.
Jerricho I'm afraid I disagree, it is not part of the job. It 's that little bit extra that most are willing to give, most of the time, but should not be relied on.
Jerricho I'm afraid I disagree, it is not part of the job. It 's that little bit extra that most are willing to give, most of the time, but should not be relied on.
Ohcirrej
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Actually Ark, that's a fair point. It's not actually part of the job.
However, a professional stance to a legitimate request is. What's in it for me? Satisfaction of helping a brother (or sister) out.
However, a professional stance to a legitimate request is. What's in it for me? Satisfaction of helping a brother (or sister) out.
