Red Stop Bars
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Wales
Red Stop Bars
You are just leaving stand and cleared to taxi ( or proceed; this applies to vehicle drivers too) to a runway hold. For argument sake we'll call it "hold A1" any airfield that uses this as a runway hold I apologise ( I can think of 1 ) but there is a stop bar illuminated at hold "A 2".
Do you
a) Stop at A2 and say nothing?
b) Taxi to A1, realise the ATC error and continue so you don't upset anyone?
c) Query the stop bar as you approach A2 - with the intention of stopping at A2 if no reclearance received?
d) Query the stop bar as you PASS A2 routing to A1.
I hope i know what the answers will be here but I am intrigued to know the answers that everyone passes. I think that anyone on the site who knows who I am will be able to make an educated guess at what I am getting at - But please do not give me away!!
Regards
TIO
Do you
a) Stop at A2 and say nothing?
b) Taxi to A1, realise the ATC error and continue so you don't upset anyone?
c) Query the stop bar as you approach A2 - with the intention of stopping at A2 if no reclearance received?
d) Query the stop bar as you PASS A2 routing to A1.
I hope i know what the answers will be here but I am intrigued to know the answers that everyone passes. I think that anyone on the site who knows who I am will be able to make an educated guess at what I am getting at - But please do not give me away!!
Regards
TIO
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 388
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From: The World, although sometimes I wonder
Dont have my copy of the latest ICAO ATM manual avail, but it says quite cleary there that you may not cross a stop bar under any circumstances, unless the ATC says there is a fault with it and you may disregard it. In all other circumstances, pilots must obey the stop bars and request further insructions.
Where the stop bar is faulty, there should be a vehicle avail to assist you to cross it, as well
Where the stop bar is faulty, there should be a vehicle avail to assist you to cross it, as well
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Absolutely 'C', no question about it. Especially since this is essentially a runway stop bar.
We have an Alpha 1, 2 & 3 as well. I suspect there might be quite a few about.
At least the failure in this case is fail-safe. The fail-hard case is where the bar disappears and pilots think it's OK to proceed. Any UK system should give a back-indication to the controller as to the corrct status of the bar, even if there's been a control failure.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
We have an Alpha 1, 2 & 3 as well. I suspect there might be quite a few about.
At least the failure in this case is fail-safe. The fail-hard case is where the bar disappears and pilots think it's OK to proceed. Any UK system should give a back-indication to the controller as to the corrct status of the bar, even if there's been a control failure.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 385
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From: The Mysterious East
Diverging slightly, hypothetical question:
How about a simple red / green traffic light at a runway holding point for control of non-radio vehicles.
If a vehicle is given a positive clearance to cross an active runway at one of these holds on the RT, would you still select the traffic lights to green while they crossed?
Would it be a bit OTT to have to give them a clearance on the RT, then switch the lights to green and then have to watch them until they're past the lights so you can put them on red again.
or
Would it be bad form to instruct a vehicle to go through a red light?
Discuss
LXGB
How about a simple red / green traffic light at a runway holding point for control of non-radio vehicles.
If a vehicle is given a positive clearance to cross an active runway at one of these holds on the RT, would you still select the traffic lights to green while they crossed?
Would it be a bit OTT to have to give them a clearance on the RT, then switch the lights to green and then have to watch them until they're past the lights so you can put them on red again.
or
Would it be bad form to instruct a vehicle to go through a red light?
Discuss
LXGB
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 30
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From: UK
It's very simple NEVER cross a red stopbar unless specifically instructed by ATC. The amount of times crews cross a red stop-bar when given a line-up instruction and the controller does not inmediately drops the stop-bar is shocking. If you are given a line-up instruction and the stop bar stays illuminated question the stop-bar. There could be a fault with it that we ATC don't know about. If we drop it and it stays on and a plane crosses it, how are we suppossed to know the thing is broken?
C
C
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,212
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From: Anywhere
Niknak/VATCO
Before running down LXGB's post bear in mind his scenario will, 99% of the time, concern a Military airfield, with Military Lighting set ups, where the stop bar that we're familiar with is non-existant.
Example:
Lights are red to prevent vehicles crossing runway/taxiway/ any other area protected as such. However, you need an airfield vehicle (ATC landrover for example) to enter the runway to remove some FOD. What you DON'T want is the queue of vehicles at the lights to cross the runway, therefore blocking it for the aircraft you know to be on final.
So - lights stay red for non-R/T equipped vehicles, but R/T equipped vehicle is allowed through the red on a specific clearance. It does happen, and sometimes has to happen.
Think out of the box (and outside your own world) occasionally guys.
LXGB - time you got out of the environment son and came to work in the real world
Before running down LXGB's post bear in mind his scenario will, 99% of the time, concern a Military airfield, with Military Lighting set ups, where the stop bar that we're familiar with is non-existant.
Example:
Lights are red to prevent vehicles crossing runway/taxiway/ any other area protected as such. However, you need an airfield vehicle (ATC landrover for example) to enter the runway to remove some FOD. What you DON'T want is the queue of vehicles at the lights to cross the runway, therefore blocking it for the aircraft you know to be on final.
So - lights stay red for non-R/T equipped vehicles, but R/T equipped vehicle is allowed through the red on a specific clearance. It does happen, and sometimes has to happen.
Think out of the box (and outside your own world) occasionally guys.
LXGB - time you got out of the environment son and came to work in the real world
Forewarned is Forearmed
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 227
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From: uk
I had to cross a red stop bar tonight at work twice in LVPS tonight, permission was given over the RT as follows... "Ranger cross the red stop bar at D-1, I say again cross the red stop bar at D-1 & report Runway 27 vacated at Hotel Over " Message read back & Affirm received from ATC before moving off.
Non Radio vehicles & non essential are not permitted on the manoevring area unless under escort at all times.
Non Radio vehicles & non essential are not permitted on the manoevring area unless under escort at all times.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Wales
No Musket 90, they shouldn't ever cross a red stop bar even if instructed to do so
If the above conditions do not exist then a follow me vehicle is required to escort the aircraft passed the stop bar. (CAP168 Appendix 2B - I think)
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: UK
Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1:
At aerodromes where taxiway stop-bars are used to protect taxiway routes and
runways from inadvertent incursions controllers are not to clear aircraft to cross an
illuminated stop-bar. The inoperable taxiway stop-bar and its associated taxiway
should be withdrawn from service and an alternative routing used. On the occasions
when this is not possible an aircraft may be cleared to cross such an illuminated
taxiway stop-bar subject to the following conditions:
a) The stop-bar cannot be suppressed.
b) The stop-bar and aircraft affected are visible to the aerodrome controller.
c) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot in no doubt that the clearance applies
only to the faulty stop-bar.
d) In the case of illuminated stop-bars protecting the runway aircraft may not be
cleared to cross without the assistance of an aerodrome operations vehicle.
NOTE: The requirement at b) above may be satisfied by the use of an SMR which
has been approved by the CAA for this purpose.
At aerodromes where taxiway stop-bars are used to protect taxiway routes and
runways from inadvertent incursions controllers are not to clear aircraft to cross an
illuminated stop-bar. The inoperable taxiway stop-bar and its associated taxiway
should be withdrawn from service and an alternative routing used. On the occasions
when this is not possible an aircraft may be cleared to cross such an illuminated
taxiway stop-bar subject to the following conditions:
a) The stop-bar cannot be suppressed.
b) The stop-bar and aircraft affected are visible to the aerodrome controller.
c) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot in no doubt that the clearance applies
only to the faulty stop-bar.
d) In the case of illuminated stop-bars protecting the runway aircraft may not be
cleared to cross without the assistance of an aerodrome operations vehicle.
NOTE: The requirement at b) above may be satisfied by the use of an SMR which
has been approved by the CAA for this purpose.