My ATC's better (spit & scratchfest)
Suave yet Shallow
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I'm sure your company heard nothing back because the situation you described is perfectly legal in the U.S
Just to have the incident disappear into a black hole neither educates the company concerned into US Ops nor solves any potential safety issues arising from it.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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I'm very concerned about MaxAlt's statement " ...any RA....lead to injuries...".
How on earth do they teach you, old chap? What software version are you using? Surely you don't fly your RA responses so aggressively that you injure people? I always stress smoothness and follow the commands. Nothing more. Anything else could lead to far greater problems, such as loss of control.
I'm not happy with the VFR traffic situation in class B, but as posted earlier, its legal. It's just different from the UK, where light aircraft flying has been all but neutered. In the US, it's a powerful lobby. In addition, terrain constraints affect many areas in the US most populous areas, such as SOCAL, where some form of VFR north-south solution had to be found.
I find it strange your mate didn't get a mental picture of the Cherokee's intentions and whereabouts from a listening watch on the radio. I do believe the PA-28 would be on the same freq in the same part of the class B, thus giving one a mental 'heads-up'.
A good lookout is still a potential lifesaver, something I think many of us have let slip in the modern age.
How on earth do they teach you, old chap? What software version are you using? Surely you don't fly your RA responses so aggressively that you injure people? I always stress smoothness and follow the commands. Nothing more. Anything else could lead to far greater problems, such as loss of control.
I'm not happy with the VFR traffic situation in class B, but as posted earlier, its legal. It's just different from the UK, where light aircraft flying has been all but neutered. In the US, it's a powerful lobby. In addition, terrain constraints affect many areas in the US most populous areas, such as SOCAL, where some form of VFR north-south solution had to be found.
I find it strange your mate didn't get a mental picture of the Cherokee's intentions and whereabouts from a listening watch on the radio. I do believe the PA-28 would be on the same freq in the same part of the class B, thus giving one a mental 'heads-up'.
A good lookout is still a potential lifesaver, something I think many of us have let slip in the modern age.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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In some parts of the USA the R/T is like an international rap contest. At places like LAX you can find yourself vectored to any one of four parallel runways from 25+ miles out, positioned high and fast, with closing heavy traffic in close proximity whilst trying to reprogram the FMC after a runway change and configure and decellerate the aircraft, all after an 11 hour flight at 4am on the body clock time. Trying to pick out a small light aircraft on the overloaded R/T or visually acquire some fairly low intensity strobe lighting against a busy city background adds a whole lot of workload at an already busy phase of flight. It's an unnnecessary distraction that could lead to a major, and wholly avoidable incident.
"I will ask drivers a simple question"
Would I prefer am approach with severe clear wx, no conflicting traffic, long runway served by an ILS. Everyonce in awhile I do manage to get that. Other times I as a professional pilot have to deal with a busy approach in a busy terminal area. Sometimes you do need your A game, sometimes you don't. Its part of the challenge of flying professionally in the busiest airspace in the world.
Would I prefer am approach with severe clear wx, no conflicting traffic, long runway served by an ILS. Everyonce in awhile I do manage to get that. Other times I as a professional pilot have to deal with a busy approach in a busy terminal area. Sometimes you do need your A game, sometimes you don't. Its part of the challenge of flying professionally in the busiest airspace in the world.
Apologies.
If your looking for a response to the scenario, no of course I'd like to pass. Just not an option in the busier terminal environments however. Planes are not going to stop flying because I want a nice straight in to a 10,000 ft runway with no challenges.
If your looking for a response to the scenario, no of course I'd like to pass. Just not an option in the busier terminal environments however. Planes are not going to stop flying because I want a nice straight in to a 10,000 ft runway with no challenges.
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Ah, but mate it is an option. Heathrow can achieve a landing rate of 43+ arrivals per hour using one arrival runway with a mix of heavy and medium traffic, everything being vectored to the ILS (no visual sight and follows) in that stupid little chunk of airspace they have, and that is exactly the service every single approaching aircraft is given. Not sure of the exact movement rate, but Gatwick is exactly the same.
Not trying to stir sh*t, just stating a fact.
Not trying to stir sh*t, just stating a fact.
Differing approach, no pun intended.
The closest thing off the top of my head to LHR is PHX, until recently it had two runways, a baotload of GA of differing categories and is a hub for two major airlines. It was a breeze to go in and out of. Little hassle from the controllers. Of course the WX is usually better. As busy as it is, its nothing as compared to the hyper busy airports that are at the end of every other leg (hub and spoke). The fixes you seem to hint at are waaay above our paygrade. We control and fly, not allocate money for new airports, new equipment, massive changes to airline schedules.
Bear in mind places like ORD and ATL are pushing a million takeoffs and landings a year. Would I love to see ORD as a couple of parallel runways, sure but it isn't going to happen. Winds shift frequently and the need for crossing runways exists.
GA exists in a huge way here and is essential. People have to meet connecting flights within the bank, etc.
As a very average line pilot with average skills who flies into the busiest of the busiest airports, I enjoy the challenge.
Your argument comes down to holding up LHR as the model airport for comparison to all others, no matter others being a helluva lot busier and complex. When I do compare airports that are roughly as busy, I find them pleasant and easy to operate at.
The closest thing off the top of my head to LHR is PHX, until recently it had two runways, a baotload of GA of differing categories and is a hub for two major airlines. It was a breeze to go in and out of. Little hassle from the controllers. Of course the WX is usually better. As busy as it is, its nothing as compared to the hyper busy airports that are at the end of every other leg (hub and spoke). The fixes you seem to hint at are waaay above our paygrade. We control and fly, not allocate money for new airports, new equipment, massive changes to airline schedules.
Bear in mind places like ORD and ATL are pushing a million takeoffs and landings a year. Would I love to see ORD as a couple of parallel runways, sure but it isn't going to happen. Winds shift frequently and the need for crossing runways exists.
GA exists in a huge way here and is essential. People have to meet connecting flights within the bank, etc.
As a very average line pilot with average skills who flies into the busiest of the busiest airports, I enjoy the challenge.
Your argument comes down to holding up LHR as the model airport for comparison to all others, no matter others being a helluva lot busier and complex. When I do compare airports that are roughly as busy, I find them pleasant and easy to operate at.
Ohcirrej
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Um, you're putting word in my mouth a little there Westy.
No, no I'm not. I am saying as a place that shifts a great deal of traffic, it provides a service as I have described.....BUT as I have mentioned on that "other" thread, core aircraft movements are NOT an indication as to how busy or complex an airfield or airspace is, (remember, the UK is just a small island, and you run out of room to play in VERY easily, both approach and enroute specialities) combined with noise abatement, curfews and the mix of traffic . And that is exactly why I pay very little creedence to stats regarding "passengers per year" and "movements per year".
As I also said elsewhere, Mr ATC sitting in his tower in Bumfuk, Nowhere with a circuit humming with first timers, zone crossers, joiners and alike could be a great deal busier that ANYONE sitting in a TRACON or Terminal unit anywhere else in the world, and trying to give the best damn service he can. And it is at this point I would like to draw a line for anybody who wishes to disparage ANY controller anywhere in the world.
(And as to using LHR as a model for anything, it would be how not to develop a country's major international airport)
Your argument comes down to holding up LHR as the model airport for comparison to all others
As I also said elsewhere, Mr ATC sitting in his tower in Bumfuk, Nowhere with a circuit humming with first timers, zone crossers, joiners and alike could be a great deal busier that ANYONE sitting in a TRACON or Terminal unit anywhere else in the world, and trying to give the best damn service he can. And it is at this point I would like to draw a line for anybody who wishes to disparage ANY controller anywhere in the world.
(And as to using LHR as a model for anything, it would be how not to develop a country's major international airport)
Fair enough.
I don't believe I've dissed anyone else's system. Just don't believe US ATC to be some 3rd world system because its not the same as what's in use in Europe. Not aimed at you.
I don't believe I've dissed anyone else's system. Just don't believe US ATC to be some 3rd world system because its not the same as what's in use in Europe. Not aimed at you.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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No, no I'm not. I am saying as a place that shifts a great deal of traffic, it provides a service as I have described.....BUT as I have mentioned on that "other" thread, core aircraft movements are NOT an indication as to how busy or complex an airfield or airspace is
I agree completely. Many of the folks posting drivel here really have only half an idea of what they're talking about. I have no idea what LHR's airspace looks like, or what their traffic mix is, or what other constraints may exist, so I'd be a fool to claim they don't do a good job.
If I can point out just one example of some of the significant differences, (I think) between U.S. and European airspace. I'm somewhat familiar with DFW's operation because I fly through the area several times a year. Now some here would poo-poo DFW's operation because they have so many runways, but on the other hand, DFW approach also works traffic in and out of:
Dallas Love
Addison
Mckinney
Executive (Redbird)
Grand Prairie
Spinks
Ft. Worth NAS
Meacham
Alliance
Denton
Those are just the airports with Control Towers. There's more than two dozen other public airports in their approach airspace without Towers, and countless private strips. It's just my opinion from reading some of the posts that some of the posters here have no idea what kind of a traffic mix exists in much of the U.S. I doubt there's a controller anywhere that wouldn't consider DFW's airspace quite crowded and the operation challenging were they sitting at one of DFW's radar scopes.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Now I think you've crossed the line a step or two further than AMF. U.S. controllers did not "sleep" during 9/11, and in fact, all North American ATC was praised for the work we did that day in handling a situation not even remotely considered possible before that day.
I don't see what that has to do with anything, as I recall, the aircraft were operating under VFR flight rules and no separation was being provided. All quite "normal" for the times.
I'll read the ICAO handbook when my employer sets it in front of me and says "Learn this".
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Yes I did, sorry! But who is to blame then? Why wasn't they scrambled in time. I read many books/reports about 9/11 and funny enough I don't believe the whole truth coming from the officiel side (Bush admin.)
US is a member of ICAO right? So why don't you follow the rules laid down by ICAO like everyone else around the globe? I still don't get it. Americans (pilot and controllers) RTF are sluppy and at times dangerous. What wrong with a standard RTF? And procedures?
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I'm on days off......... you got phone numbers?
Dave
Gentlemen,
FYI here is an address for you to inspect and hear about the life of an ATC controller at ATL Center (Centre).
It is very interesting and informative.
Enjoy.
www.avweb.com/news/columns/182633-1.html
That should get you to his first column of a few years ago, if it does not work you can get to his titled column, called Say Again
FYI here is an address for you to inspect and hear about the life of an ATC controller at ATL Center (Centre).
It is very interesting and informative.
Enjoy.
www.avweb.com/news/columns/182633-1.html
That should get you to his first column of a few years ago, if it does not work you can get to his titled column, called Say Again
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Dr Evil - why don't we Brits drive on the right? Ahhh, how dull life would be if we weren't flexible....
"...American (pilots...)...dangerous". Hmm. I manage perfectly safely over here with their system, flexibility once again. I do have the added luxury (?!) of having flown for RAF, BMA, CX, blah blah before coming over here, so am able to switch to Euro-mode with no problem when I fly trans-Atlantic, and I try to coach my fellow crew to do same, if nothing else than for their own dignity.
One possible point of discussion: there has been a massive shuffle of pilots in the US majors resulting from downsizing. A side-result is that there are many crew doing international as FO who were domestic Capts for years, etc. I know many 777 Capts who are locking-in their pension flying the most senior jet who have never done any international before, even as FO (and our Int. Course is just a paper excercise by UK standards). It's hard to learn new tricks as you get more senior. The average age of the senior line holders has shot up by over a decade in my airline alone. Wonder if this is a factor in any way? Not trying to bash the old folks, BTW (they got this far safely enough). Discuss, please....
"...American (pilots...)...dangerous". Hmm. I manage perfectly safely over here with their system, flexibility once again. I do have the added luxury (?!) of having flown for RAF, BMA, CX, blah blah before coming over here, so am able to switch to Euro-mode with no problem when I fly trans-Atlantic, and I try to coach my fellow crew to do same, if nothing else than for their own dignity.
One possible point of discussion: there has been a massive shuffle of pilots in the US majors resulting from downsizing. A side-result is that there are many crew doing international as FO who were domestic Capts for years, etc. I know many 777 Capts who are locking-in their pension flying the most senior jet who have never done any international before, even as FO (and our Int. Course is just a paper excercise by UK standards). It's hard to learn new tricks as you get more senior. The average age of the senior line holders has shot up by over a decade in my airline alone. Wonder if this is a factor in any way? Not trying to bash the old folks, BTW (they got this far safely enough). Discuss, please....
Join Date: Dec 2002
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"...American (pilots...)...dangerous". Hmm. I manage perfectly safely over here with their system, flexibility once again.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Beaverton, Oregon. More like Portland than Seattle. On the other hand, Boeing is closer to Seattle...
I had something humorous in mind when I started writing this but now it's slipped away....
I had something humorous in mind when I started writing this but now it's slipped away....
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Dr. Evil;
First be careful of your facts when you spew about the US being the only one who doesn't comply with ICAO. Take a look at how many exceptions to ICAO that the UK has. Then look at the rest of the world. We are not the only ones who have exceptions, nor do we have any other issues with it due to most of our pilots being native english speakers. That being said, I too would like to see our pilots tighten up thier phraseology it is getting horendous.
For all you US pilots out there, please use a call sign, we are getting about 10% now who like to shorten up with no call sign as if they are on the telephone... We aren't. Also when issuing an altitude or heading or speed. I would really like more then just the three numbers I have issued. I don't know if you are reading back a speed heading or altitude. Then when I clarify, most pilots have been getting huffy or condecending. We need to get a bit more professional in our radio work...
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman
First be careful of your facts when you spew about the US being the only one who doesn't comply with ICAO. Take a look at how many exceptions to ICAO that the UK has. Then look at the rest of the world. We are not the only ones who have exceptions, nor do we have any other issues with it due to most of our pilots being native english speakers. That being said, I too would like to see our pilots tighten up thier phraseology it is getting horendous.
For all you US pilots out there, please use a call sign, we are getting about 10% now who like to shorten up with no call sign as if they are on the telephone... We aren't. Also when issuing an altitude or heading or speed. I would really like more then just the three numbers I have issued. I don't know if you are reading back a speed heading or altitude. Then when I clarify, most pilots have been getting huffy or condecending. We need to get a bit more professional in our radio work...
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman