Changing between RAS, RIS and FIS
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Changing between RAS, RIS and FIS
Yesterday I was IFR at FL40 bumbling my way across the countryside in my C150 outside controlled airspace. I got a RAS from the local Air Traffic unit because I was in IMC. Twenty minutes later I popper out of the cloud and was in good VMC and I could tell I would be for the next 15 minutes. So, I asked for a FIS thinking that it would cut down the controllers workload. 15 minutes later I was about to enter IMC again so I asked for RAS.
My question is, was this a sensible thing to do? Does it cut down on controller workload or was the ATC chap cursing me the other side of the PPT button thinking "I wish he would make up his mind!"
My question is, was this a sensible thing to do? Does it cut down on controller workload or was the ATC chap cursing me the other side of the PPT button thinking "I wish he would make up his mind!"
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Request the service you need at the time.....end of broadcast!
I wish more pilots would do the same instead of blindly asking for RAS when it's gin clear.
I know it's company policy for certain airlines to request a RAS, however, if you are given avoiding action whilst you are still serving pudding.....you are responsible for getting the trifle out of the carpet....not me!
I wish more pilots would do the same instead of blindly asking for RAS when it's gin clear.
I know it's company policy for certain airlines to request a RAS, however, if you are given avoiding action whilst you are still serving pudding.....you are responsible for getting the trifle out of the carpet....not me!
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Well done. Sounds like you applied your thought process in a most sensible manner. I wish all aviators applied the same upgrade/downgrade thought-process (althouth you obviously don't have to miss out the request for RIS if you want that extra bit of 'security').
Ask for what you want and then and, provided that the controller and you are able to meet the relevant responsibilities, that is what you will get - that is what ATSOCAS is all about.
Ask for what you want and then and, provided that the controller and you are able to meet the relevant responsibilities, that is what you will get - that is what ATSOCAS is all about.
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Agree with all the above... definitely, whats the price of a bit of biro refill these days?
One more thing, which many GA pilots taking LARS seem to forget is that under RAS you have the option of noting the traffic info... but NOT taking the avoiding action.... if you are happy to continue.
(be warned though, You do then become responsible for separation against that traffic)
One more thing, which many GA pilots taking LARS seem to forget is that under RAS you have the option of noting the traffic info... but NOT taking the avoiding action.... if you are happy to continue.
(be warned though, You do then become responsible for separation against that traffic)
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It's difficult to guess what's happening on the ATC side of the radio and a busy frequency isn't the place to ask! So, thanks for the advice, everyone - I'll make sure I do the same thing next time.
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It might have been, JF! You can't get away with anything these days 
. Yes, they did a splendid job.
I'm quite new to this IFR stuff - only my second trip out in the fluffy stuff by myself and the first time I've ever had a RAS. I'm just getting the hang of it on pretty gentle days like last Sunday.
Both Waddington and E. Mids looked after me very well and I hope I didn't sound too much like an amature!
. Yes, they did a splendid job.I'm quite new to this IFR stuff - only my second trip out in the fluffy stuff by myself and the first time I've ever had a RAS. I'm just getting the hang of it on pretty gentle days like last Sunday.
Both Waddington and E. Mids looked after me very well and I hope I didn't sound too much like an amature!
Blimey, Jay Foe you've reappeared, although I know that you've moved on a little since giving yourself the moniker and I gave you the armband!!
RR, I might have been tempted to change to a RIS as you can then guarantee that the controller will maintain track ident on you thereby making the upgrade to RAS that you thought you might need 15 minutes down the line that bit easier. However, I'm playing devil's advocate, as there is nothing whatsoever wrong with what you did. You're better off staying VFR and getting a FIS anyway if Jay Foe's on watch!!!
( and yes, I'm joking!!)
RR, I might have been tempted to change to a RIS as you can then guarantee that the controller will maintain track ident on you thereby making the upgrade to RAS that you thought you might need 15 minutes down the line that bit easier. However, I'm playing devil's advocate, as there is nothing whatsoever wrong with what you did. You're better off staying VFR and getting a FIS anyway if Jay Foe's on watch!!!
( and yes, I'm joking!!)
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RR no need to be so guarded
As you may have guessed from WWW's message I may have been the strange nagging voice in your headset as you trundled South.
It's always best to ask for the service you need at the time, if you can't see anything out of the cockpit then that's what we're there for. All I would ask is that especially at the weekend around our neck of the woods it can get busy (WWW you wouldn't know anything being busy
) and as soon as you no longer need Radar Advisory downgrade to a FIS or RIS as you did. This allows us to move some of the attention we're paying to you to someone else.
What you did was perfectly OK, in fact feel free to do it again this weekend especially as I'm not working
WWW yes I have indeed crawled back out of the woodwork. Glad to see you still add your two-pennorth to PP!
Also thought you might like to know that the Family Car is now being used properly! Sleep Deprivations great!
As you may have guessed from WWW's message I may have been the strange nagging voice in your headset as you trundled South.
It's always best to ask for the service you need at the time, if you can't see anything out of the cockpit then that's what we're there for. All I would ask is that especially at the weekend around our neck of the woods it can get busy (WWW you wouldn't know anything being busy
) and as soon as you no longer need Radar Advisory downgrade to a FIS or RIS as you did. This allows us to move some of the attention we're paying to you to someone else. What you did was perfectly OK, in fact feel free to do it again this weekend especially as I'm not working
WWW yes I have indeed crawled back out of the woodwork. Glad to see you still add your two-pennorth to PP!
Also thought you might like to know that the Family Car is now being used properly! Sleep Deprivations great!
One more thing, which many GA pilots taking LARS seem to forget is that under RAS you have the option of noting the traffic info... but NOT taking the avoiding action.... if you are happy to continue.
(be warned though, You do then become responsible for separation against that traffic)
(be warned though, You do then become responsible for separation against that traffic)
I can't say "traffic in sight" because it's not. And I don't want to take the vector. So how do I respond to "Traffic ... if not sighted turn left heading 123"?
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As controllers, we assume that you are 'happy to continue' against the other traffic because your flight conditions must be good enough to give you time to avoid conflictions.
Of course if the flight conditions were that good you would downgrade to RIS but we recognise it might not be Company policy etc.
Therefore I would suggest telling the controller either 'Happy to continue' or 'VMC happy to continue'
Hope that helps.
Of course if the flight conditions were that good you would downgrade to RIS but we recognise it might not be Company policy etc.
Therefore I would suggest telling the controller either 'Happy to continue' or 'VMC happy to continue'
Hope that helps.
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w3
I don't think that it is unique to KLM. I realize that company policy for many airlines in Class G is use RAS (on their terms).
However, I remember another airline operating in the middle air across the North Sea. One crew under a RAS from me elected not to take the turn offered to them with traffic info that I issued on a pair of F15s doing intercepts off the Norfolk coast. The traffic turned towards them and started to descend; with the a loss of warm fuzzy feeling and the fact that said airline pilot had not yet called visual, I re-issued traffic information. This time the pilot did call visual with the F15 at a range of about 10-15 miles. Both ac continued on their flight profiles and the F15 overflew the civvy with a couple of hundred feet separation.
You can probably guess the outcome. Airmiss (it was a few years ago!) filed by the airliner. How to shoot yourself in the foot eh!
I don't think that it is unique to KLM. I realize that company policy for many airlines in Class G is use RAS (on their terms).
However, I remember another airline operating in the middle air across the North Sea. One crew under a RAS from me elected not to take the turn offered to them with traffic info that I issued on a pair of F15s doing intercepts off the Norfolk coast. The traffic turned towards them and started to descend; with the a loss of warm fuzzy feeling and the fact that said airline pilot had not yet called visual, I re-issued traffic information. This time the pilot did call visual with the F15 at a range of about 10-15 miles. Both ac continued on their flight profiles and the F15 overflew the civvy with a couple of hundred feet separation.
You can probably guess the outcome. Airmiss (it was a few years ago!) filed by the airliner. How to shoot yourself in the foot eh!
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One explanation I've heard for commercials taking RAS in Class G,
irrespective of weather/flight conditions aside from the "duty of care" arguement... i.e. taking the best service available, is that the initial "if not sighted" avoiding action can be a normally rate turn possibly even 1/2 rate made on autopilot? (a practice frowned upon by the CAA, but allegedly widespread)...
Whereas taking RIS and trusting to spotting the conflictor, with the inherent risk of late sighting, may require more agressive avoiding action (See earlier F15 story). Any pilots wish to comment on this?
irrespective of weather/flight conditions aside from the "duty of care" arguement... i.e. taking the best service available, is that the initial "if not sighted" avoiding action can be a normally rate turn possibly even 1/2 rate made on autopilot? (a practice frowned upon by the CAA, but allegedly widespread)...
Whereas taking RIS and trusting to spotting the conflictor, with the inherent risk of late sighting, may require more agressive avoiding action (See earlier F15 story). Any pilots wish to comment on this?
