New procedures - do you get any simulation before?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Poland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New procedures - do you get any simulation before?
My ATC environment is about to be completely changed in few months time: brand new zone (I hope that will sound the same in any ATC language - right now my airfield is in a CTR alone, with a military airfield just out of it, after the changes we'll have a CTR with a MATZ (uncontrolled) and ATZ of a flying club nearby all put together in a procedure TMA - that is all to be made radar controlled in, let's say, 1 year's time).
Following these changes there'll be completely new approach procedures: instead of a "traditional" racetrack ILS/DME with a NDB on 4NM final we'll have a choice of 2 ILS approaches for the main RWY; one without any racetrack but with a loooong 110 degrees turn for IF and final, another based on a new DVOR placed on the airfield with a racetrack. The NDB will definitely be turned off.
I must say I am a bit nervous about it, since the company is not planning to have this airspace simulated before it gets into real life traffic. Apart from many questions about our ability to separate departing and arriving traffic without any major harm to efficiency of the traffic flow I am concerned of being thrown into deep water without any preparation.
Those of you who work in ATC certainly know that it's not an easy situation.
My question is: is it normal in other countries to have such big changes introduced and having ATCOs left alone? I feel that we at least deserve any simulator session...
Following these changes there'll be completely new approach procedures: instead of a "traditional" racetrack ILS/DME with a NDB on 4NM final we'll have a choice of 2 ILS approaches for the main RWY; one without any racetrack but with a loooong 110 degrees turn for IF and final, another based on a new DVOR placed on the airfield with a racetrack. The NDB will definitely be turned off.
I must say I am a bit nervous about it, since the company is not planning to have this airspace simulated before it gets into real life traffic. Apart from many questions about our ability to separate departing and arriving traffic without any major harm to efficiency of the traffic flow I am concerned of being thrown into deep water without any preparation.
Those of you who work in ATC certainly know that it's not an easy situation.
My question is: is it normal in other countries to have such big changes introduced and having ATCOs left alone? I feel that we at least deserve any simulator session...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Costa del Hampshire
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the UK we almost always have simulations and training before major changes of airspace and/or procedures like you suggest. Some go on for several weeks and some just for a few hours depending on the complexity and number of controllers/sectors involved.
Beady Eye
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As Barry Cuda says, we do in the UK. In fact I doubt we could obtain licensing approval if we did not. Also the bonus with simulations is that you have the opportunity to fine tune or tweak the changes before they go live. Only ATCO's who are working the sectors can give you that very valuable input plus (of course) its in their interests to have the airspace/procedure made to suit how they work 
BD
BD
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frunobulax,
In Oz, any new procedure, airspace, change, whatever must always be subject to a TNA. TNA = Training Needs Analysis.
A TNA would be done to decide what training is needed by controllers to go from the old to the new.
As an ATC Instructor, looking at the brief details you have posted, I would hazard an opinion that at the very least a period of simulation would be involved especially if,
and your
.
DP
In Oz, any new procedure, airspace, change, whatever must always be subject to a TNA. TNA = Training Needs Analysis.
A TNA would be done to decide what training is needed by controllers to go from the old to the new.
As an ATC Instructor, looking at the brief details you have posted, I would hazard an opinion that at the very least a period of simulation would be involved especially if,
Following these changes there'll be completely new approach procedures
ATC environment is about to be completely changed in few months time
DP
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
in the US we "normally" do a lot of validation of any new procedures and do work with computer modeling as well as work in the ATC simulator. We also try to get it worked out in aircraft sims to see if it is flyable.
regards
Scott
regards
Scott
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: N 43° 39' 54'' E 7° 12' 53''
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[provocation mode ON]
Welcome to Europe !
A beautiful place where soon any company will be able to bid for ATC needs... With polish paid controllers, and will start tomorrow without any simulation ...
What does that tell us about the safety levels all around europe ?
[provocation mode OFF]
Sorry, I don't mean no disrespect to you Frunobulax or any of your colleagues. It seems very sensible of you to ask for simulation but the answer from you company isn't.
Welcome to Europe !
A beautiful place where soon any company will be able to bid for ATC needs... With polish paid controllers, and will start tomorrow without any simulation ...
What does that tell us about the safety levels all around europe ?
[provocation mode OFF]
Sorry, I don't mean no disrespect to you Frunobulax or any of your colleagues. It seems very sensible of you to ask for simulation but the answer from you company isn't.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hampshire UK
Age: 70
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frunobulax,
If you have safety concerns I suggest you contact EASA - European Aviation Safety Agency. It may be possible to "buy in" simulations from a foreign ATC service provider, if the Polish authorities lack the resources.
If you have safety concerns I suggest you contact EASA - European Aviation Safety Agency. It may be possible to "buy in" simulations from a foreign ATC service provider, if the Polish authorities lack the resources.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Poland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a Polish saying goes: "It's a bad bird who ****s in its own nest", so I really shouldn't make any comments on my company.
We do have resources to simulate these changes, unfortunately my unit is considered rather small by the management ( the "you only have two flights a day" kind of approach). Had it been Warsaw or ACC - the ATC staff would have been practicing few weeks before now.
I do agree that it doesn't sound very professional to admit that there are not going to be any simulation sessions. The reason for my post was that I believe that my responsibilty as an ATCO doesn't end at the end of the shift.
Don't worry about the safey level in Poland: vast majority of us have the same approach as I have; don't blame us if the system doesn't work as perfect as a dream.
We do have resources to simulate these changes, unfortunately my unit is considered rather small by the management ( the "you only have two flights a day" kind of approach). Had it been Warsaw or ACC - the ATC staff would have been practicing few weeks before now.
I do agree that it doesn't sound very professional to admit that there are not going to be any simulation sessions. The reason for my post was that I believe that my responsibilty as an ATCO doesn't end at the end of the shift.
Don't worry about the safey level in Poland: vast majority of us have the same approach as I have; don't blame us if the system doesn't work as perfect as a dream.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Poland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Last minut news for those concerned about safety in Eastern Europe:
we agreed simulator sessions with our Training Dept.
Thanks to all for giving strong examples how essential it is.
we agreed simulator sessions with our Training Dept.
Thanks to all for giving strong examples how essential it is.
