EDI Approaches (Split topic)
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Right
I hope this is my last word.
All I'm saying (and I know I don't know everthing thats happening), is that IF it's possible to delay the queue build up every evening, WHEN the weathers good, by offering the no.1 a visual then why not do it?
And if the no.2 can see the field and the one ahead is it really 'mission impossible' to clear him in too, 'no 2 to the one ahead'?
I know (now) that you're not permitted to offer IFR traffic a visual but saying 'advise if at any time YOU wish to continue visually' is NOT a clearance. SO do it
Would it really be so hard?
OOoh I think i've got something off my chest!
I hope this is my last word.
All I'm saying (and I know I don't know everthing thats happening), is that IF it's possible to delay the queue build up every evening, WHEN the weathers good, by offering the no.1 a visual then why not do it?
And if the no.2 can see the field and the one ahead is it really 'mission impossible' to clear him in too, 'no 2 to the one ahead'?
I know (now) that you're not permitted to offer IFR traffic a visual but saying 'advise if at any time YOU wish to continue visually' is NOT a clearance. SO do it
Would it really be so hard?
OOoh I think i've got something off my chest!
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1: I think ATC EDI is excellent. There's a tailback every now and again but nothing too drastic.
2: I live in Cramond and can categorigally state that at only a few mile out I can track and hear the guys doing a visual FAR before the vectored guys. largely because they try to dead-stick it all the way down to 500ft and then throw on the power for the 'stabilised approach ' criteria.... you may feel like chuck Yeager doing it but to anybody on the ground in the know it's annoying because you've just saved yourself the exact sum of 20 seconds and pissed off 5000 families to make your willy feel bigger......anyway many airlines (orange 737's for one) specify in SOP when you should configure making the old hot-dog visual approach a waste of time.
3. I spent some time flying in places where ATC was terrifying if they even answered you, so I for one think ATC in the UK is one of the best in the world and if they make me wait 30 seconds longer on approach than I'd have taken if I'd inverted the aircraft and worked out my own three times table then so be it. life is stressful enough, I like being confident in the ATC service i use and I think if they vectored you so tight together that several of us did have to throw away approaches you'd get the exact same neds protesting that ATC was wreckless and didn't they know basic separation minma etc.
4. BF wind your neck in.
5. ATC chaps. nice job.
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FS. Wind your own neck in!
The last 5 miles on 24 would be the same (for us) whether 'visual' or not. Certainly the stabilised approach criteria are the same. It's the bit leading up to the standard noise points that is the issue here.
Based at EDI are you? (just out of interest)
The last 5 miles on 24 would be the same (for us) whether 'visual' or not. Certainly the stabilised approach criteria are the same. It's the bit leading up to the standard noise points that is the issue here.
Based at EDI are you? (just out of interest)
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brain fade
And this might be my last post on the subject too! Although you might not believe it from some posts above, most ATCOs accept that in almost every situation, the quicker you shift a/c through your area of responsibility and onto the next frequency (or stand if they're inbound), the easier the job becomes. So for approach controllers it usually is easiest if no.1 in the sequence does go visual and keeps it tight and fast, as it also does when you want a gap behind that one for any reason. There's always the compromise, though, between landing the most a/c and getting the most airborne if you're just using the one runway. And I did one multi-sector fam flight with a 737 crew where the captain made it clear he wasn't happy with another 737 rolling ahead of us when we were at 3 mile final (turbulent wake in the flare zone, missed approach confliction etc). His preferred situation was more air holding, a slower and wider and less fraught circuit and landing, at the cost of just a couple of minutes per sector. Now I know this isn't a view shared by all or even most crews, which just proves we absolutely ain't going to please everybody!
Certain crews did seem to get frequently sh@fted, particularly twin turboprops who were capable of flying 200kts to 4 miles (company restriction, I know the plane could manage 240 and still land...) but would be behind a 73 or 757 and have to be back at 160 by 15 miles to maintain vortex spacing. But that's what happens sometimes with limited airspace and a genuinely impartial first-come, first-served ethos which is rumored not to be the case in some parts of the world...
Oh, and I'm forced to agree with L'n'L (I think) who pointed out that not everybody on a visual goes straight to min. final - I have been embarassed on more than one occasion by number one taking a wide visual base leg AND slowing down, the cad!!!
Finally I agree more visits, in both directions, including beers when possible, work wonders for exactly this sort of debate. Now, where's that ruddy picture of the ILS aerial gone to?
And this might be my last post on the subject too! Although you might not believe it from some posts above, most ATCOs accept that in almost every situation, the quicker you shift a/c through your area of responsibility and onto the next frequency (or stand if they're inbound), the easier the job becomes. So for approach controllers it usually is easiest if no.1 in the sequence does go visual and keeps it tight and fast, as it also does when you want a gap behind that one for any reason. There's always the compromise, though, between landing the most a/c and getting the most airborne if you're just using the one runway. And I did one multi-sector fam flight with a 737 crew where the captain made it clear he wasn't happy with another 737 rolling ahead of us when we were at 3 mile final (turbulent wake in the flare zone, missed approach confliction etc). His preferred situation was more air holding, a slower and wider and less fraught circuit and landing, at the cost of just a couple of minutes per sector. Now I know this isn't a view shared by all or even most crews, which just proves we absolutely ain't going to please everybody!
Certain crews did seem to get frequently sh@fted, particularly twin turboprops who were capable of flying 200kts to 4 miles (company restriction, I know the plane could manage 240 and still land...) but would be behind a 73 or 757 and have to be back at 160 by 15 miles to maintain vortex spacing. But that's what happens sometimes with limited airspace and a genuinely impartial first-come, first-served ethos which is rumored not to be the case in some parts of the world...
Oh, and I'm forced to agree with L'n'L (I think) who pointed out that not everybody on a visual goes straight to min. final - I have been embarassed on more than one occasion by number one taking a wide visual base leg AND slowing down, the cad!!!
Finally I agree more visits, in both directions, including beers when possible, work wonders for exactly this sort of debate. Now, where's that ruddy picture of the ILS aerial gone to?
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And I've seen crews embarrass themselves by coming in too tight and having to be sent around because they ended up one and a half miles behind an A320, or were far to high to make it!
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I can't speak for anybody else but when I get a visual I turn straight towards a 5 mile final. Why would anyone do otherwise
I can think of at least one company , not just one pilot within that company but all, that when cleared a visual they aim for an 8 mile final so that they dont break noise. If you are vectoring behind then it really is a pain, especially if 7 behind!
Was gonna start adding points but I see my former colleagues have already said just about everything, so I'll not pour more oil on the fire. Kinda getting bored of the whole topic now especially as everyones hands are tied on what we can and can't do. If you want things changed then talk to BAA as they are the ones who make the rules regarding things like visuals at night and 12/30 closures.
Ps L'n'L good to see your still alive and as unopinionated as ever
Babe
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Yoiks
Heard EDI ATC prompt someone to day that a 'visual' would be available 'if it suited'. And it did!
Power of Pprune or just a coincidence?
Re above comments. I've learned some stuff, so thanks
BF
Heard EDI ATC prompt someone to day that a 'visual' would be available 'if it suited'. And it did!
Power of Pprune or just a coincidence?
Re above comments. I've learned some stuff, so thanks
BF
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Well, let's face facts. Every day we get situations in which somebody will have to be screwed over. Often there is an obvious screwee, but sometimes it's down to a judgement call. Who becomes the screwee? The one who sounds like a miserable *%£&, every time!
