Good or Bad airmanship??
Mint with a Hole
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Good or Bad airmanship??
Guys and Girls,
Just a quick question..
I'm a Fighter Controller(please dont lynch me just yet) and I have a quick query...
Aside from the rules and regs of flight safety is it considered bad airmanship to allow an aircraft to freecall another agency if their IFF is U/S?
Thoughts and comments would be appreciated.
Polo
Just a quick question..
I'm a Fighter Controller(please dont lynch me just yet) and I have a quick query...
Aside from the rules and regs of flight safety is it considered bad airmanship to allow an aircraft to freecall another agency if their IFF is U/S?
Thoughts and comments would be appreciated.
Polo
'...allow an aircraft to freecall another agency...' can you prevent a pilot from freecalling? As long as you follow the rules (give the pilot his position; frequency and c/s of the next agency) I don't see any great dramas.
Unless you know otherwise?
edited to turn it into slightly better English
Unless you know otherwise?
edited to turn it into slightly better English
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I would say that in our line of business it’s not a black and white situation and more info on the scenario is required!
However, as a ‘starter for 10’, if you had the facilities and capacity to affect a radar handover then, with a jet with u/s IFF (I’m assuming no Mode 3/A or C?), you should have attempted to do so. Also, unless the transponder went u/s immediately before he was about to leave your freq, you shouldn’t really find yourself in that situation as if you don’t have time to sort out the issues, give him to the FM. (Or were you the FM?!!) However, if you couldn’t get through to the other agency, you and the FM were maxxed with other ac, your ac with the u/s IFF wasn’t hurtling towards other agencies’ traffic and the traffic situation in the vicinity was quiet, (a lot of proviso’s there!); then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Generally, if you would have been happy on the receiving end of that free-call then that’s probably a good indication of whether it’s good airmanship or not. Overall, without the full scenario, I’m thinking that it’s potentially not the best of airmanship given the environment we work in.
There you are, just what you didn’t want, another smart assed FC answering your question!
Regards, ADIS
However, as a ‘starter for 10’, if you had the facilities and capacity to affect a radar handover then, with a jet with u/s IFF (I’m assuming no Mode 3/A or C?), you should have attempted to do so. Also, unless the transponder went u/s immediately before he was about to leave your freq, you shouldn’t really find yourself in that situation as if you don’t have time to sort out the issues, give him to the FM. (Or were you the FM?!!) However, if you couldn’t get through to the other agency, you and the FM were maxxed with other ac, your ac with the u/s IFF wasn’t hurtling towards other agencies’ traffic and the traffic situation in the vicinity was quiet, (a lot of proviso’s there!); then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Generally, if you would have been happy on the receiving end of that free-call then that’s probably a good indication of whether it’s good airmanship or not. Overall, without the full scenario, I’m thinking that it’s potentially not the best of airmanship given the environment we work in.
There you are, just what you didn’t want, another smart assed FC answering your question!
Regards, ADIS
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As a pilot - freecall is just that - freecall - no coordination has been effected and no handover given and no details passed.
If you had told us that our transponder/IFF was u/s then on our initial freecall we would pass that info on..........eg no mode C because readout incorrect!
If you told us to continue on a 0000 code then that should tell the story anyway!
Freecall as far as I am aware can only happen in class G and in that airspace I am entitled to initiate that so you may not have time anyway!
Regards,
DFC
If you had told us that our transponder/IFF was u/s then on our initial freecall we would pass that info on..........eg no mode C because readout incorrect!
If you told us to continue on a 0000 code then that should tell the story anyway!
Freecall as far as I am aware can only happen in class G and in that airspace I am entitled to initiate that so you may not have time anyway!
Regards,
DFC
Mint with a Hole
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Ok all good points so far..
However..scenario was..
F3 was u/s IFF and the realeasing agency was aware of this fact. The F3 was at FL240 and requested to freecall the next agency as he was 10 miles from his start point for the exercise. The releasing agency told him to maintain FL240 and cleared him to freecall.(yes I know if an aircraft wants to go en route in class G then there is not a lot to stop him). Nearest stranger was approx west 10 maintaining FL145 so not a priority confliction had the F3 maintained FL240. The releasing agency recommened maintaining FL240 although the stranger WAS NOT called in.
F3 mate goes on route and decsends and pitches up on next agencies freq with no Mode 3 and in confliction. Obviously all the controller can do is ask for Hgt and identify him though by this time it was to late and the 2 a/c merged co-lvl (although it later emerged neither were visual.
Obviously there is not a lot of blame to be passed here(and that is most certainly what i'm not trying to do) as all agencies followed correct procedure.
Was just after thoughts/comments on this situation which unfortunatley could have been far worse!!
Appreciate comments so far and have taken on board!
Polo
And just as an add on...
DFC pilot was aware his IFF was u/s
and
ADIS5k we were the receiving agancy...
Ta
Polo
However..scenario was..
F3 was u/s IFF and the realeasing agency was aware of this fact. The F3 was at FL240 and requested to freecall the next agency as he was 10 miles from his start point for the exercise. The releasing agency told him to maintain FL240 and cleared him to freecall.(yes I know if an aircraft wants to go en route in class G then there is not a lot to stop him). Nearest stranger was approx west 10 maintaining FL145 so not a priority confliction had the F3 maintained FL240. The releasing agency recommened maintaining FL240 although the stranger WAS NOT called in.
F3 mate goes on route and decsends and pitches up on next agencies freq with no Mode 3 and in confliction. Obviously all the controller can do is ask for Hgt and identify him though by this time it was to late and the 2 a/c merged co-lvl (although it later emerged neither were visual.
Obviously there is not a lot of blame to be passed here(and that is most certainly what i'm not trying to do) as all agencies followed correct procedure.
Was just after thoughts/comments on this situation which unfortunatley could have been far worse!!
Appreciate comments so far and have taken on board!
Polo
And just as an add on...
DFC pilot was aware his IFF was u/s
and
ADIS5k we were the receiving agancy...
Ta
Polo
yes I know if an aircraft wants to go en route in class G then there is not a lot to stop him
Within Class G airspace seperation is not your responsibility.
In fact, seperation doesn't theoretically exist in Class G.
Sorry. Appreciate it's not the answer you're after...
Mint with a Hole
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Paddy..
Yes I know the the responsibity rests with the pilot but i'm (for lack of a better word)questioning the previous actions prior to freecall.
Polo
Yes I know the the responsibity rests with the pilot but i'm (for lack of a better word)questioning the previous actions prior to freecall.
Polo
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The releasing agency told him to maintain FL240 and cleared him to freecall.(yes I know if an aircraft wants to go en route in class G then there is not a lot to stop him
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Polo,
Firstly, is anyone filing on anyone else here? If so, it’s probably not really appropriate to debate the in’s and out’s here. (Discuss)
Secondly, assuming that it was a mil agency that released the aforementioned F3, then they should be aware that a F3 at FL240 with a u/s transponder and just about to start his mission is only likely to do one thing, and that is descend! Therefore, surely the stranger West 10 could have been called in, which would probably have resulted in the F3 not merging co-level? Isn’t hindsight a great thing! Agree though that it sounds like everyone adhered to the letter of the law. But I bet you that we’d call that stranger in if we were in a similar scenario now? I think it comes down to what FCs have always been taught – keep the crews’ SA as high as possible and don’t sit on information that you have which could benefit the crews. Any thoughts?
Mr Moderator
Wise words. I think we’d all agree with you there. For starters, here’s one incident that would probably have been avoided.
Regards, ADIS
Firstly, is anyone filing on anyone else here? If so, it’s probably not really appropriate to debate the in’s and out’s here. (Discuss)
Secondly, assuming that it was a mil agency that released the aforementioned F3, then they should be aware that a F3 at FL240 with a u/s transponder and just about to start his mission is only likely to do one thing, and that is descend! Therefore, surely the stranger West 10 could have been called in, which would probably have resulted in the F3 not merging co-level? Isn’t hindsight a great thing! Agree though that it sounds like everyone adhered to the letter of the law. But I bet you that we’d call that stranger in if we were in a similar scenario now? I think it comes down to what FCs have always been taught – keep the crews’ SA as high as possible and don’t sit on information that you have which could benefit the crews. Any thoughts?
Mr Moderator
Wise words. I think we’d all agree with you there. For starters, here’s one incident that would probably have been avoided.
Regards, ADIS
Mint with a Hole
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Thanks all for your comments. I was just curious.
ADIS5k...No, no-one was filed against and as you correctly point out I certainly have enough discretion not to have posted this thread otherwise! Calling in the stranger...Talking to most collegues they would have called the stranger in but the releasing agency had NO obligation to do so..however I do agree with the SA comment..
And yes Mr Mod absolutley agree with you too.
Regards,
Polo
ADIS5k...No, no-one was filed against and as you correctly point out I certainly have enough discretion not to have posted this thread otherwise! Calling in the stranger...Talking to most collegues they would have called the stranger in but the releasing agency had NO obligation to do so..however I do agree with the SA comment..
And yes Mr Mod absolutley agree with you too.
Regards,
Polo
