London ACC Swanwick night closed
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London ACC Swanwick night closed
hey friends!
Again I see night time sector closures. I saw again last week also.
http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/chmi...m&aim=00072960
No staff like all in Europe? Single sector ops? Don't do it please.
Eury.
Again I see night time sector closures. I saw again last week also.
http://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/chmi...m&aim=00072960
No staff like all in Europe? Single sector ops? Don't do it please.
Eury.
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"Don't worry - we'll have enough staff by 2007 !"
The "destination" in question doesn't mention the number of staff. Our new management do seem to have done their sums and recognise that they can't do anything about the numbers in such a short time scale. They are not talking about more resources, they're talking about using the resources they have differently. Individual rosters, standby duties, rostered overtime, flexible shift times ...............any more for any more?
The "destination" in question doesn't mention the number of staff. Our new management do seem to have done their sums and recognise that they can't do anything about the numbers in such a short time scale. They are not talking about more resources, they're talking about using the resources they have differently. Individual rosters, standby duties, rostered overtime, flexible shift times ...............any more for any more?
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<<Our new management do seem to have done their sums and recognise that they can't do anything about the numbers in such a short time scale.>>
"Old" management weren't much cop either... :-)
"Old" management weren't much cop either... :-)
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Arkady refers to individual rosters, compulsory overtime, standby duties etc and I have to agree with him. We could on the other hand stand up for ourselves and refuse. We could start by being less greedy and not clamouring to do AAVAs.
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what would we gain by "standing up for ourselves". It would result in more delays and not increase staff numbers. I thought we were moving away from the attitude of previous years and towards a more enlightened view of what we are all trying to achieve.
If some people feel able to work a little more by doing AAVA's then why not trust their judgement as fellow professionals rather than making condescending remarks about their choice to do them.
If some people feel able to work a little more by doing AAVA's then why not trust their judgement as fellow professionals rather than making condescending remarks about their choice to do them.
Last edited by ifaxu; 13th Feb 2005 at 19:49.
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I don't think professionalism comes into it, ifaxu. Way back in the days of Long Hours Gratuity for weekend working there were always the greedy guys who would volunteer to work weekends like they were going out of fashion. More sensible people, like me, used to queue up to give them their extra work (and money!).
Management ALWAYS wins in ATC... always have done, do now, and always will do UNTIL the ATCOs say enough is enough..
Management ALWAYS wins in ATC... always have done, do now, and always will do UNTIL the ATCOs say enough is enough..
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excellent a condescending reply to my post. It surely is not about winning or losing but doing the best job we can now with limited resources whilst still making sure we strive to improve the staffing situation.
Last edited by ifaxu; 13th Feb 2005 at 19:47.
AAVA (OVERTIME !!)
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ifaxu... Nothing condescending (note the cunning correct spelling!) about my reply.. I was a coalface worker all my life. No smart suit here, as you would well know if you'd worked with me.
<<whilst still making sure we strive to improve the staffing situation.>>
How much striving does it take to fix a problem that has existed for over 30 years to my knowledge.
<<whilst still making sure we strive to improve the staffing situation.>>
How much striving does it take to fix a problem that has existed for over 30 years to my knowledge.
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What are you doing on this forum if you worked down the mines?
I do apologise for my spelling but then I am just a humble Atco(oxymoron?) Just because you failed to improve the system in 143 years as an Atco does not mean we should stop trying now.
I do apologise for my spelling but then I am just a humble Atco(oxymoron?) Just because you failed to improve the system in 143 years as an Atco does not mean we should stop trying now.
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"Why dont we call it OVERTIME like every other company?"
"Overtime" in NATS is different to an AVAA. If you work overtime you are subject to the Green Book T & Cs. If you work an AVAA you are subjuct to the T & Cs of the AVAA agreement in the last pay round. Call it enhanced overtime if you like.
"We could on the other hand stand up for ourselves and refuse."
Refuse to do what? If we are asked to work in a manner that is compliant with the Staff Handbook and SCATCOH we can't refuse.
Our management don't want a fight or bad feeling, they'll offer cash at the next pay round to accept a deal that they could probably force on us if we say no.
They may want to get us to accept changes to our T & Cs that they couldn't force upon us, that'll be another wedge of cash.
As HD has pointed out there will always be an ATCO willing to take the extra cash. Actually, it's probably a majority of ATCOs now, judging by the last pay round.
"Overtime" in NATS is different to an AVAA. If you work overtime you are subject to the Green Book T & Cs. If you work an AVAA you are subjuct to the T & Cs of the AVAA agreement in the last pay round. Call it enhanced overtime if you like.
"We could on the other hand stand up for ourselves and refuse."
Refuse to do what? If we are asked to work in a manner that is compliant with the Staff Handbook and SCATCOH we can't refuse.
Our management don't want a fight or bad feeling, they'll offer cash at the next pay round to accept a deal that they could probably force on us if we say no.
They may want to get us to accept changes to our T & Cs that they couldn't force upon us, that'll be another wedge of cash.
As HD has pointed out there will always be an ATCO willing to take the extra cash. Actually, it's probably a majority of ATCOs now, judging by the last pay round.
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That is exactly my point. There will always be ATC staff ready and willing to do overtime or AAVA call it what you will. We should be more "unenlightened" and refuse to do things a little more. In years to come when you have lost your index linked pension, you are all on individual rosters, on call at home, compulsory overtime, etc, there will be no one to blame but yourselves. I understand that all this downgrading of your personal lives will be OK providing you all get "loads of cash". All of which brings me back to greed. I think that it may be a "generational thing" as both HD and I are of similar vintage, ie being older and wiser.
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Quote from ifaxu >>
"Oh how charming! A poor person frequenting our jolly little forum. Now be a good fellow and fetch me my headset, I have AAVA's to attend to. " unquote. <
I am actually a £ millionaire , and dont need to work my b---s off
You " ifaxu "obviously are not , that is why I guess you do all that "overtime", er sorry AAVA
And well said DC10RealMan
"Oh how charming! A poor person frequenting our jolly little forum. Now be a good fellow and fetch me my headset, I have AAVA's to attend to. " unquote. <
I am actually a £ millionaire , and dont need to work my b---s off
You " ifaxu "obviously are not , that is why I guess you do all that "overtime", er sorry AAVA
And well said DC10RealMan
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DC10 or HD have still failed to come up with exactly how we would benefit from digging our heels in. I think the halcyon days of air traffic that you both remember(as do I to a lesser extent having been an atco for 20 years) are behind us. We need to look to the future now and with a strong but realistic union approach do what is best for the membership. If that membership thinks that money is a good enough motivator for the extra tasks they are asked to perform who are we (yes I include myself as someone who is not motivated by more money as I have more than I need at present) to shout them down. A union is about democracy, and unpalatable as it may be to some the membership has proved that it is motivated by cash! So lets stop hiding behind moral indignation and elevating our job to something it is not and negotiate from a representative position.
Airfarce 0ne I do no overtime at all and my response to your earlier post was meant as mildly ironic. No offense meant.
I am a $millionare if that is helpful.
Airfarce 0ne I do no overtime at all and my response to your earlier post was meant as mildly ironic. No offense meant.
I am a $millionare if that is helpful.
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ifaxu its strikes me that management have two choices. They can either try to get staffing levels up to where they should be, OR they can pay AAVAs and not have to increase numbers. If staff refused to do AAVAs then management would HAVE to do something about staffing levels....
So, more staff, or more money for the existing staff? And there lies the issue of greed....
(yes, I know that numbers can't be raised that quickly, but you see where I am coming from...)
So, more staff, or more money for the existing staff? And there lies the issue of greed....
(yes, I know that numbers can't be raised that quickly, but you see where I am coming from...)
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mR CHIPS EXCELLENT RESPONSE. i AGREE ENTIRELY WITH WHAT YOU SAY. BUT, THE LIMITATIONS THAT WE WORK WITH ARE THAT WE DO HAVE A LOT OF STAFF WHO ARE MOTIVATED BY HARD CASH. WE CAN NO LONGER CONTINUE TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS A MINORITY OF PEOPLE WHO FEEL THIS WAY AS PAY ROUND AFTER PAY ROUND IS VOTED IN ON THE BASIS OF HOW MUCH MONEY WE ARE OFFERED RATHER THAN QUALITY OF CONDITIONS.
I have switched off "caps lock" now! DOH
I have switched off "caps lock" now! DOH
Last edited by ifaxu; 16th Feb 2005 at 10:59.
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Why all the shouting?
The UK staffing situation has been brought about by years of crass management. A simple fact.
A simple fact that no manager has admitted is true. Perhaps if they did so they might have more credibility? After all if an ATCO makes a bit of an error, he / she is usually suspended and then offered some retraining (community service). I do not recall ONE manager ever being suspended or offered re training. Why not? Or are they all error free? I do not think so.
"Destinations" and "buy in" are just the latest buzz words from somesuch business school. Been there, seen it all before, as have most of us. It doesn't actually change anything.
It's not the staff attitudes that need tweaking, it's the managements. An example? In reply to peoples unease with the statement that "NATS will not tollerate SSE1/2s by 2007", the manager responsible refused to do the simple thing and change the wording, choosing instead to defend it.
Now when you've made an error, the best way out is to admit it and learn from it. It's what most aviation professionals do, including most ATCOs. It is therefore a great pity that the management cannot "manage" in the same professional manner.
There was a time when I might get all worked up over this. In common with many, I just don't care anymore. I love my job, but am heartily sick of the way it is being mis-managed. "Get involved" you may say. Been there, tried that. Waste of time. Virtually all the people I had to deal with outside the Ops room had no idea about ATC or safety,and nor did they want to know. Office jobs are about maintaining empires, not about ATC.
rgds BEX
The UK staffing situation has been brought about by years of crass management. A simple fact.
A simple fact that no manager has admitted is true. Perhaps if they did so they might have more credibility? After all if an ATCO makes a bit of an error, he / she is usually suspended and then offered some retraining (community service). I do not recall ONE manager ever being suspended or offered re training. Why not? Or are they all error free? I do not think so.
"Destinations" and "buy in" are just the latest buzz words from somesuch business school. Been there, seen it all before, as have most of us. It doesn't actually change anything.
It's not the staff attitudes that need tweaking, it's the managements. An example? In reply to peoples unease with the statement that "NATS will not tollerate SSE1/2s by 2007", the manager responsible refused to do the simple thing and change the wording, choosing instead to defend it.
Now when you've made an error, the best way out is to admit it and learn from it. It's what most aviation professionals do, including most ATCOs. It is therefore a great pity that the management cannot "manage" in the same professional manner.
There was a time when I might get all worked up over this. In common with many, I just don't care anymore. I love my job, but am heartily sick of the way it is being mis-managed. "Get involved" you may say. Been there, tried that. Waste of time. Virtually all the people I had to deal with outside the Ops room had no idea about ATC or safety,and nor did they want to know. Office jobs are about maintaining empires, not about ATC.
rgds BEX