London ACC Swanwick night closed
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Age: 67
Posts: 867
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would agree entirely with Bexil. The only problem I have with overtime is that it encourages the management to believe that everything has its price ie:Pension guarantees, stable roster, standby duties, etc and from previous submissions they may be right. I have no problem with the general principle, but please wait a couple of years until I have claimed my pension and retired and then you can all work as much as you like and get "loads of dosh", be on call H24, and do standby duties, if fact why dont we do away with salaries and just get paid by the hour that you work on the sector. I for one will laugh when in a few years you all come whinging in here about how hard you work, but you may as well make the "dosh" now as I am sure in a few years with the advent of "Free Flight", TCAS, and other goodies there may be no requirement for ATCOs anyway.
Last edited by DC10RealMan; 14th Feb 2005 at 15:28.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southampton
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It has long been said that an ATCO will only strike over two things - Leave and Pensions. I suspect that this is still true despite the greedy money grubbing profession we have become
. Up to that line, I would agree that everything else has its price.
I suspect this is less of a generational thing than an attitude towards work in general. The job for life is a thing of the past in almost all areas of employment; no wonder employees may prefer instant reward to possible long term benefit. ATCOs, as members of society in general, are unlikely to be much different. As I have said previously, a lot of the changes management would like to make will be within their rights - individual rosters particularly- so it really depends upon us to get the best deal we can for working them.
As for AVAAs, the whole pay case last time round was underpinned by the need for an AVAA agreement. Management would not have offered anything like the levels of pay increases if they hadn't had to guarantee the acceptance of the AVAAs.
I do AVAAs. I didn't the first time around because I didn't like the scheme as it was and I felt I was getting nothing for my extra effort. This time I have agreed to do some because the agreement is different and I know that my pay rise (and yours) was enhanced by the need for them. Does this make me greedy? Or a company man? Neither I hope, or perhaps a bit of both. Eventually our management will try to negotiate away some of the fundamental benefits of this job. I don’t think my colleagues will fall for it, or be bought. But in the meantime we will get pretty close to the line.
. Up to that line, I would agree that everything else has its price. I suspect this is less of a generational thing than an attitude towards work in general. The job for life is a thing of the past in almost all areas of employment; no wonder employees may prefer instant reward to possible long term benefit. ATCOs, as members of society in general, are unlikely to be much different. As I have said previously, a lot of the changes management would like to make will be within their rights - individual rosters particularly- so it really depends upon us to get the best deal we can for working them.
As for AVAAs, the whole pay case last time round was underpinned by the need for an AVAA agreement. Management would not have offered anything like the levels of pay increases if they hadn't had to guarantee the acceptance of the AVAAs.
I do AVAAs. I didn't the first time around because I didn't like the scheme as it was and I felt I was getting nothing for my extra effort. This time I have agreed to do some because the agreement is different and I know that my pay rise (and yours) was enhanced by the need for them. Does this make me greedy? Or a company man? Neither I hope, or perhaps a bit of both. Eventually our management will try to negotiate away some of the fundamental benefits of this job. I don’t think my colleagues will fall for it, or be bought. But in the meantime we will get pretty close to the line.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: hampshire
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There have been a number of posts on this thread implying that if you do AAVAs you're a greedy b'stard with no respect for your own or anybody else's personal life. I beg to differ. My motivation for doing them is purely family based. I can earn as much in one shift doing something that I enjoy, as it would take my wife to earn doing three extremely ****ty shifts working in the NHS where you really know what it's like to work short staffed.
Please, let's try and maintain a sense of reality of what it's like to work both inside and outside ATC.
Please, let's try and maintain a sense of reality of what it's like to work both inside and outside ATC.
Last edited by Slippers; 15th Feb 2005 at 06:18.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: hampshire
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roger,
My point was a simple one but it appears to have been lost on you so i'll explain.
Me doing the odd AAVA on a fairly regular basis reduces the the need for my wife to do anything other than a bit of part time work, thereby enabling the family to spend more time together and negating the need to put any of the kids into child care. Obviously it would be nice if she didn't have to work at all but sadly my salary alone doesn't stretch to the £300K+ that I need to buy a 4 bed house.
So as you say, it is indeed surreal because it appears we have found two people who like spending time with their family
My point was a simple one but it appears to have been lost on you so i'll explain.
Me doing the odd AAVA on a fairly regular basis reduces the the need for my wife to do anything other than a bit of part time work, thereby enabling the family to spend more time together and negating the need to put any of the kids into child care. Obviously it would be nice if she didn't have to work at all but sadly my salary alone doesn't stretch to the £300K+ that I need to buy a 4 bed house.
So as you say, it is indeed surreal because it appears we have found two people who like spending time with their family
Join Date: May 2004
Location: alton
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What an offensive reply(since deleted) from Rogerout. There are indeed many Atco's who do the occassional AAVA so that their partner needs to work less or not at all. If this does not reflect Rogerouts situation then so be it, but for most of us the amount of time off that we have is a real plus of the job. BUT if your partner has to work fulltime to sustain a reasonable family income then that time off is less valuable to SOME people as they wish to spend time together. I know of one individual who by doing say 2 or 3 AAVA's would mean that his partner does not need to work at all thus meaning that allthough he has fewer days off those he does have are spent with the family together.
As I have said before I do not do AAVA's but defend the right of those who are not top of scale etc. to do them if in their professional judgement they are able.
Age/seniority does not always equate to wiseness. You only have to read some of the bitter, twisted posts on this forum from people who have been in the job for 30 or 40 years to realise this.
As I have said before I do not do AAVA's but defend the right of those who are not top of scale etc. to do them if in their professional judgement they are able.
Age/seniority does not always equate to wiseness. You only have to read some of the bitter, twisted posts on this forum from people who have been in the job for 30 or 40 years to realise this.
Last edited by ifaxu; 17th Feb 2005 at 11:38.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ifaxu.... A nice little post and a sentiment that I would wholeheartedly agree with.
Not an AAVA person myself, but see no reason to stop others if they so choose. I do not want to be required to do extra days in future.
The last para I have a little difficulty with
This may be just your PERCEPTION. E-mail and postings here do not tell the entire story. It might be a mistake to judge (or take too seriously) others equally valid opinions.
Bitter and twisted me? Nope, just extremely disappointed with poor management (which, BTW is no better in most ATC providers.. just ask any FAA controller).
Tell me if you really think any different? I may not agree, but that would be your opinion. How could I criticise you personally?
Rgds BEX
Not an AAVA person myself, but see no reason to stop others if they so choose. I do not want to be required to do extra days in future.
The last para I have a little difficulty with
Age/seniority does not always equate to wiseness. You only have to read some of the bitter, twisted posts on this forum from people who have been in the job for 30 or 40 years to realise this.
Bitter and twisted me? Nope, just extremely disappointed with poor management (which, BTW is no better in most ATC providers.. just ask any FAA controller).
Tell me if you really think any different? I may not agree, but that would be your opinion. How could I criticise you personally?
Rgds BEX
Join Date: May 2004
Location: alton
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bexil160--- point taken but I did not say that age/experience never equates to wiseness just not always. I quite agree that some of the posts on this and other forums from very experienced people impart a lot of knowledge. However when it comes to AAVA's, management tecniques and staff shortages, We are entering a new era with new problems and hopefully new solutions. Therefore the cynical attitude that it's managements fault so tough luck will no longer work( IMHO).
I have nothing but respect for anyone who has spent 30 or 40 years doing the job BUT times are changing and the support of these well respected individuals is far more valuable than an attitude of "it hasn't worked so far, so it will never work."
I have nothing but respect for anyone who has spent 30 or 40 years doing the job BUT times are changing and the support of these well respected individuals is far more valuable than an attitude of "it hasn't worked so far, so it will never work."
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ?
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Listen to yourselves.
"Oh, I don't want to do overtime" (have the balls to call it what it is). How many other countries around the world do have overtime and people happily stick their hand up to do it.
If you want it, do it. If not, let those that want to whore themselves.
"Oh, I don't want to do overtime" (have the balls to call it what it is). How many other countries around the world do have overtime and people happily stick their hand up to do it.
If you want it, do it. If not, let those that want to whore themselves.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: alton
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am very pleased by RO's reply. I have never before been called a delicate flower. It is nice to see my feminine side come shining through and I have pointed out RO's opinion of me to my wife who thinks somewhat differently. I hope this is the start of a beautiful relationship between myself and RO which will slowly blossom as befits my floral nature
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: solent-on-sea
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I may be losing sight of the thread here but surely the fact that LMS/LUS or whichever sector has had to be closed at night recently means people are NOT doing all the AAVAs offered.
Perhaps it's more symptomatic of running night rostering rather close to the bone (and indeed days!).
Perhaps it's more symptomatic of running night rostering rather close to the bone (and indeed days!).
