Radar / Tower
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Radar / Tower
Quick question...
Are there any Airports in the uk and beyond who have Tower and Approach Radar combined in the VCR worked by the same ATCO? I know Procedural Approach and Tower are combined in alot of smaller fields. If so..is it just Primary or Primary/SSR? Are they also Ground? Is it difficult looking out the window controlling the circuit one minute and looking at a screen vectoring aircraft for approach the next?
Ok so thats about 4 quick questions...just curious!!
Are there any Airports in the uk and beyond who have Tower and Approach Radar combined in the VCR worked by the same ATCO? I know Procedural Approach and Tower are combined in alot of smaller fields. If so..is it just Primary or Primary/SSR? Are they also Ground? Is it difficult looking out the window controlling the circuit one minute and looking at a screen vectoring aircraft for approach the next?
Ok so thats about 4 quick questions...just curious!!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You What is slightly incorrect.
In the UK it's illegal to provide approach radar services whilst providing aerodrome control - it has to be two separate people.
However - there is a tower where the two are in the same room - Norwich when Coltishall is closed (Approach Radar normally being provided from a console there).
In the UK it's illegal to provide approach radar services whilst providing aerodrome control - it has to be two separate people.
However - there is a tower where the two are in the same room - Norwich when Coltishall is closed (Approach Radar normally being provided from a console there).
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However - there is a tower where the two are in the same room - Norwich when Coltishall is closed (Approach Radar normally being provided from a console there).
Until last year (or year before that), Southend had a similar situation with radar in the tower (albeit behind a curtain) but had to re-locate it downstairs.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: OK (it's okay)
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Kwajalein Control Facility says on its website: KWA was the first radar facility to combine tower, approach and center operations, where one controller works all three radar specialties at the same time.
ATC 24/7
ATC 24/7
niknak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but the CAA have issued a requirement to have it relocated
Whilst it is true that there are two radar positions within the radar room at Norwich, they are rarely used mainly 'cos coordination is a lot easier if you are sitting next to someone as opposed to talking via an intercom.
The radar position in the VCR is the same as those downstairs, (fully functional colour radar with SSR) and SRG approved for use day and night both as an ATM and a radar.
No one has issued any request or requirement to move it.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wales
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cardiff Has seperate ACR and VCR positions. The radar is closed at night (check the aip for times) so tower does an approach function also.
If it works with Scratcoh then an approach radar service will be supplied to inbound / outbound aircraft.
If it works with Scratcoh then an approach radar service will be supplied to inbound / outbound aircraft.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Oz, the RAAF have some airfields with a Tower and also a radar approach unit. During quiet periods, eg. Sundays, (noone ever attacks on Sundays, just ask the yanks), radar approach is performed by a suitably rated Tower controller from the Tower.
This isn't done at any civilian airfields in Oz.
This isn't done at any civilian airfields in Oz.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California USA
Posts: 719
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not uncommon at all in the US in "upstairs/downstairs" FAA facilities. Sometimes the TRACON is open, and other times radar is combined at the local control position, depending upon traffic/shift/etc. I always felt the worst part of this arrangement was loss of the BRITE for the close-in guys. When you crank the BRITE out to 60 miles to run approaches, the display provides no help at all for the pattern.
As for Kwaj... When last I saw that operation it was run off of separate displays (enroute and tracon) and the displays themselves didn't inspire me. That two-scope methodolgy is bad enough in a reguar CERAP. To toss tower into the mix is, in my opinion, a bit much, even if it is with the kinds of traffic counts and predictable movements Kwaj enjoys...
I note that, from a mil tower/TRACON controller standpoint (LONG time ago!) lack of atc staffing wouldn't be problematic shoud an attack come to pass on a Sunday. In my experience, those boys and girls in the g-suits are going to depart and go where they go, regardless of your level of cooperation in the tower...
As for Kwaj... When last I saw that operation it was run off of separate displays (enroute and tracon) and the displays themselves didn't inspire me. That two-scope methodolgy is bad enough in a reguar CERAP. To toss tower into the mix is, in my opinion, a bit much, even if it is with the kinds of traffic counts and predictable movements Kwaj enjoys...
I note that, from a mil tower/TRACON controller standpoint (LONG time ago!) lack of atc staffing wouldn't be problematic shoud an attack come to pass on a Sunday. In my experience, those boys and girls in the g-suits are going to depart and go where they go, regardless of your level of cooperation in the tower...
ATC
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Age: 55
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Faro - FAO / LPFR
Funchal - FNC / LPMA
Porto - OPO / LPPR
Controllers at these TWR are all rated TWR and APP Radar
Aerodrome position and App Radar Position are side by side.
Funchal - FNC / LPMA
Porto - OPO / LPPR
Controllers at these TWR are all rated TWR and APP Radar
Aerodrome position and App Radar Position are side by side.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gloucester does, indeed, provide Aerodrome and Approach Radar from the VCR. The ATCO's sit about 4 feet apart at an L-shaped desk. 20" PC monitor in front of the Approach person, and a 14" ATM next to Tower...looks like PC World!!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here in Sweden we have many towers with just one position handling both the Approach and the Tower (and ground).
Most towers have PSR and SSR.
And no I dont find it difficult to switch between looking out the window and to look at the radar.
Most towers have PSR and SSR.
And no I dont find it difficult to switch between looking out the window and to look at the radar.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
Posts: 1,032
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same in Norway, no problem as long as you don't vector from the TWR position if you have any other tasks/traffic.
But...in Norway (and Sweden, if nothing has changed in the last 3 years), all ATC units have CAS (CTR&TMA) that give IFR traffic the ability to fly from a controlled to a controlled airport without leaving class D/C (Even the ones without pressurized cabins)
We don't have the RIS/RAS in class G to contend with. The fact that there is a requirement to carry a working SSR in CAS allso helps. (No PSR tracks to babysit)
And frankly, the old matra that radar is not helpful when working TWR only, is ridiculous. (Sure, the Mk.1 eyball is still the most important, but everything that increases SA is good in my opinion)
(Give me a hint to where you work MSI, I might know you!
)
But...in Norway (and Sweden, if nothing has changed in the last 3 years), all ATC units have CAS (CTR&TMA) that give IFR traffic the ability to fly from a controlled to a controlled airport without leaving class D/C (Even the ones without pressurized cabins)
We don't have the RIS/RAS in class G to contend with. The fact that there is a requirement to carry a working SSR in CAS allso helps. (No PSR tracks to babysit)
And frankly, the old matra that radar is not helpful when working TWR only, is ridiculous. (Sure, the Mk.1 eyball is still the most important, but everything that increases SA is good in my opinion)
(Give me a hint to where you work MSI, I might know you!
)
