Altitude restrictions

[gaga1976]

LOLEVEL,
What if, before reaching POINT you give me "Maintain present hdg". I'm still gonna overfly POINT but technically I'm not on STAR.
Or "Direct XYZ". POINT goes out of my FMC and putting it back (abeam) takes few strokes.

PPRuNeTower, is there a piece of paper that I can quote to my Captain next time on UK Star

P.S. Last time when I said CaptPPRuNe, I meant PPRuNe Tower. Sorry

[PPRuNe Radar]

gaga1976

The instruction for controllers is found in the Manual of Air Traffic Services (MATS) Part 1 (CAP493). I don't have one to hand to give the exact reference but will advise shortly. Unless of course one of my learned colleagues jumps in first. In the meantime, any UK AIP published STAR will provide the Captain with the following:

DESCENT PLANNING

Pilots should plan for possible descent clearance as detailed in the table below. ACTUAL DESCENT CLEARANCE WILL BE AS DIRECTED BY ATC

For example, Bovingdon STARs to Heathrow

http://www.ais.org.uk/uk_aip/pdf/ad/32LL0702.pdf


There is no corresponding entry in the UK AIP that I can see to relate to the MATS entry, nor is it repeated in the ICAO documents. However it does also appear in the US ATC manual, which is available on the web from the FAA site. I don't have a CAP413 (RT Manual) to hand either to check that, but will in a day or so.

Perhaps it would be prudent for the CAA to put the text from the MATS Part 1 in the AIP and then it is clear for all to see on both sides of the mike........in UK airspace at least.

PS PPRuNe Towers is not Captain PPRuNe but nor is he PPRuNe Radar. I'm the one they keep down below in the darkened room.

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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Radar (edited 09 September 2000).]

[gaga1976]

PPRuNe Radar,
Operationally it doesn't make much difference that this Altitude Restriction is only for planing purposes since it can be issued any time during descent and you have to be able to make it, preferably without extending gear or speedbrake (I've heard they call it 'shamestick' in Australia).
Yesterday I flew to LGW and we had to descent to be FL160 by BEXIL even before the actual clearance was given to be able to make it when the clearance was given.
Also would like to hear your opinion about
"Descent FL160 be level at BEXIL" compared with
"Descent FL160 by BEXIL" (as in UK STARs)
Is it same thing?

[PPRuNe Radar]

gaga1976

Most ATC'ers have a fair idea of the normal profiles generally flown in order to meet restrictions. So in the main, descent clearances will be given in sufficient time to make good any ATC imposed restriction. This can either be by ATC instructing you to descend now, based on their knowledge of profiles, or as a 'descend when ready' instruction which leaves it up to you to make the move at the right time.

The BEXIL instruction you quote is the same. One is a written version, the other is the RT phraseology required to say the same thing. There are 2 phrases which can be used on the RT.

Descend FL160 to be level by BEXIL, or,
Descend FL160, cross BEXIL level.

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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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[PPRuNe Radar]

gaga1976,

There is no entry in the CAP 413 (RTF Manual) regarding reclearances and previous restrictions.

The MATS Part 1 (CAP493) quote for your Captain is from Page 1-27 Para 6 which says:

AMENDMENTS TO CLEARANCES

When an amendment is made to a clearance the new clearance shall be read in full to the pilot and shall automatically cancel any previous clearance. Controllers must be aware, therefore, that if the original clearance included a restriction, e.g 'cross ABC FL150 or below' then the issue of a revised clearance automatically cancels the earlier restriction unless it is reiterated in the revised clearance'

Anyone out there with contacts in SRG Flight Ops who could ask what they think ??

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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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[karrank]

For GAGA1976:

Multiple requirements do have a place apparently, I've never tried though, If I have more than one I would usually do them one at a time while assigning an intermediate level, but it is in our manual.

If STAR = Reach FL180 by PRANG (60NM from IMPACT)

"Track direct AUGER, descend FL140, reach FL180 by 60 miles from IMPACT."

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"Station calling Centre, grow a head..."

[Eric T Cartman]

Along the same lines as the above, would someone care to offer an opinion on the following for me, as an Approach man who hasn't done Area Radar for 26 years & who has already had several conflicting answers!
Traffic inbound to VOR XYZ on Radar Release/Handover, descending to min stack e.g. FL70. Centre gives handover, saying traffic descending to FL70, to be level 10 miles before XYZ.
(Perhaps to deconflict traffic inbound XYZ from a different direction allocated FL80, or standard practice anyway ?)
On first contact, I descend the aircraft to 6000ft altitude. If I have not been given any information on conflicting traffic can I & / or the pilot assume that the restriction is now cancelled, or, as PPrune Radar quotes from MATS Pt.1, should the clearance now be "descend to altitude 6000ft, to be FL70 or below 10 miles before XYZ" ?

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Damn, I got old quick !

[This message has been edited by Eric T Cartman (edited 14 September 2000).]

[PPRuNe Radar]

ETC,

If you accept the handover with a restriction, then you must ensure that the restriction is met. So according to MATS Part 1, you need to repeat that restriction if you issue a reclearance. If you don't then there is nothing to prevent the pilot ignoring it.

However, in practice, what you might do is assess that the aircraft will comply by default when you issue the new clearance and so not bother.....but be aware that the responsibility for making sure the pilot does meet the restriction will be yours !!

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PPRuNe Radar
ATC Forum Moderator
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[Eric T Cartman]

PPRuNE Radar
Thanks for the above.
I understand what you're saying about a radar handover but as our traffic is always on a "radar release", MATS Pt.1 requires that conflicting aircraft are either transferred to me or identified, according to my decision. So, if no confliction is notified to me, I wonder why the level restrictions are imposed in the first place?
Also, once the aircraft hes been released to me, if no confliction is notified, I may vector it away from XYZ towards final approach & it would therefore be impossible to comply with the "level 10 before" restriction !

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Damn, I got old quick !

[gaga1976]

PPRuNe Radar,
Thanks for the answer. Only Hard Evidence matters when you have disagreement in cockpit.
It is my opinion that knowledge about this got lost in everyday operation. Pilots are doing original restrictions even when it's not repeated because they are not quite sure, and since they always do, ATC slowly forgot it needs to repeat it. And as we all know not many people bothers to go through books again from time to time. Especially if the things are going well.
I think thing are clear for UK airspace. Is there anybody from other European ATC who would like to comment?

[gaga1976]

Are forementioned documents (CAP & MATS) by any chance available online?

[StopStart]

Stumbled in here after following a link from the Tech Log - lots of good gen here.
Grandad Flyer asked a question a few days ago re: "Charlie Charlie" instead of "affirm"; I've been told by various old and bolds that it dates back to the days of the early days of HF radios. I certainly use it a fair bit (RAF I'm afraid) in the Middle East and Africa - controllers 'round those parts will often say "Is that Charlie?" (instead of "Is that correct?") the reply to which is "Charlie Charlie". Hmmm.

[10W]

Been following this one closely. I've spoken to some people in SRG who are going to get back to me with where it appears in UK pilot documentation. I suggested it should maybe be in the UK AIP, so who knows !! Watch this space.

Sorry gaga, don't think the documents are available online yet, but again there is progress being made by the CAA to come into the 21st Century and maybe one day they will be there for all.

In the meantime I'm sure some of us here can forward photocopies of extracts to those who need them.

Cheers

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10 West
UK ATC'er
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[Sink Rate]

I need them 10W!

I'll be very interested in what SRG will have to say. This is certainly not something that is covered clearly in any one publication that I am aware of. It's an important issue, and one that I'm sure we would all like to see resolved in official documentation.

I appreciate that many of you guys know the rules, mostly learned at CATC, but to have it in a quotable written form would be invaluable.

[10W]

Sink Rate,

Drop me your e-mail address and I'll send you a PDF of the relevant bit.

Cheers

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10 West
UK ATC'er
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[Chatterbox]

I just hope that no one flying out of LHR on the BPK sid decides that when they are cleared to FL130 thinks they can ignore the min alt restrictions on the sid. If they do it's all gonna get a bit messy around CHT when ya meet the NHT outbound. Surely unless told otherwise any level restriction, be it "level by" or "at or above" etc will be ignored without at least queerying it.

[On the air]

Hello!

In Germany we do it in this way:
If we gave you a level combined with a restriction then comply with it until we call you: disregard the restriction
To stay with the example
cleared level 180 to be at PRANG
if you get the reclearance : descend fl 140
then comply with the previous restriction until we call you: disregard
if you get the clearance: descend Fl180 with 2000ft/min which would make you to cross PRANG at Fl180 then the restriction is not further mandatory when recleared to FL140
unless I call you to keep the rate of descent

in general: if there is a restriction made with a point or FL then comply with it unless we say disregard (even if you are sent to another frequency).
If we clear a FL with rate of descend/climb then you can disregard the rate as soon you get a new FL.
Comply with restrictions of STARs/SIDs . If it is not possible (only due to aircraft/weather reasons) to comply with, inform us . Our clearances normally take care on the restrictions on the chart.
restrictions in STAR/SID are made for noise abatement and for radio com failure only!

[10W]

Sink Rate,

Copy of UK ATC instructions in the e-mail for you.

The US ATC manual and other FAA Air Traffic publications can be found here:

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/default.htm

or to quote direct from the FAA Manual Doc 7110.65 Chapter 4 Section 2 Para 4.2.5:

b. When route or altitude in a previously issued clearance is amended, restate all applicable altitude restrictions.

EXAMPLE-
(A departing aircraft is cleared to cross Ollis intersection at or above 3,000; Gordonsville VOR at or above 12,000; maintain FL 200. Shortly after departure the altitude to be maintained is changed to FL 240. Because altitude restrictions remain in effect, the controller issues an amended clearance as follows):

"Amend altitude. Cross Ollis intersection at or above Three Thousand; cross Gordonsville V-O-R at or above One Two Thousand; maintain Flight Level Two Four Zero."

(Shortly after departure, altitude restrictions are no longer applicable, the controller issues an amended clearance as follows):

"Climb and maintain Flight Level Two Four Zero."

NOTE-
Restating previously issued altitude to "maintain" is an amended clearance. If altitude to "maintain" is changed or restated, whether prior to departure or while airborne, and previously issued altitude restrictions are omitted, altitude restrictions are canceled, including DP/FMSP/STAR altitude restrictions if any.

The US pilots guidance, contained in the Aeronautical Information Manual states:

Chapter 4 Section 4 Para 4.4.4

g. The guiding principle is that the last ATC clearance has precedence over the previous ATC clearance. When the route or altitude in a previously issued clearance is amended, the controller will restate applicable altitude restrictions. If altitude to maintain is changed or restated, whether prior to departure or while airborne, and previously issued altitude restrictions are omitted, those altitude restrictions are canceled, including departure procedures and STAR altitude restrictions.

EXAMPLE-
1. A departure flight receives a clearance to destination airport to maintain FL 290. The clearance incorporates a DP which has certain altitude crossing restrictions. Shortly after takeoff, the flight receives a new clearance changing the maintaining FL from 290 to 250. If the altitude restrictions are still applicable, the controller restates them.

2. A departing aircraft is cleared to cross Fluky Intersection at or above 3,000 feet, Gordonville VOR at or above 12,000 feet, maintain FL 200. Shortly after departure, the altitude to be maintained is changed to FL 240. If the altitude restrictions are still applicable, the controller issues an amended clearance as follows: "cross Fluky Intersection at or above three thousand, cross Gordonville V-O-R at or above one two thousand, maintain Flight Level two four zero."

3. An arriving aircraft is cleared to the destination airport via V45 Delta VOR direct; the aircraft is cleared to cross Delta VOR at 10,000 feet, and then to maintain 6,000 feet. Prior to Delta VOR, the controller issues an amended clearance as follows: "turn right heading one eight zero for vector to runway three six I-L-S approach, maintain six thousand."

NOTE-
Because the altitude restriction "cross Delta V-O-R at 10,000 feet" was omitted from the amended clearance, it is no longer in effect.

ICAO does not appear to have any such guidance, maybe its time it did ??



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10 West
UK ATC'er
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