Min climb rate
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Min climb rate
Could someone please tell me what the minimum climb rate is.
I am wondering as I fly a turbo prop and on a hot day at approx 16000 ft and above we struggle to get 500 fpm climb rate out of it(sometimes we only get 300 fpm).
Your help is welcomed.
SC...........
I am wondering as I fly a turbo prop and on a hot day at approx 16000 ft and above we struggle to get 500 fpm climb rate out of it(sometimes we only get 300 fpm).
Your help is welcomed.
SC...........
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Try losing some weight, cut down your beer/food intake.
Hope that helps
Cheers
FBW
PS Hope you are keeping well and enjoying things.
[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]
Hope that helps
Cheers
FBW
PS Hope you are keeping well and enjoying things.
[ 25 July 2001: Message edited by: Flybywyre ]
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SkyCruiser;
Can't speak for the folks in Europe, but in the US our written policy for normal rate of climb is 500 fpm and you are requested to advise ATC if you can't keep up with that.
regards
Can't speak for the folks in Europe, but in the US our written policy for normal rate of climb is 500 fpm and you are requested to advise ATC if you can't keep up with that.
regards
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SkyCruiser, the UK AIP states that all aircraft are to maintain a minimum climb rate of 500fpm. If the pilot is unable to comply with this, he should let ATC know beforehand. I guess this means you tell the tower when you get start clearance. To be perfectly honest, it doesn`t make a terrific amount of difference to us ATCOs. We all like a good laugh in fact, oh will we ever have such amusement as when the Caledonian (RIP) ten-elevens used to climb out at 240fpm but `We can wind it up to 360fpm if you want, Sir`! Did they sit at Gatwick doing their checks to see if they would be able to clear the Alps??!! All the same, we all loved `em and we all miss `em. Cheers, BB.
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I remember at PATCRU, [I SAID I was a BOF!!!]
A Cambrian Ba11 off EGGP climbing at 500+fpm, and a BEA Ba11 off EGCC at 500- fpm. Same route, same flight level. As BAW lobbed off first, [by 1 min,longer route] they got the priority!
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
A Cambrian Ba11 off EGGP climbing at 500+fpm, and a BEA Ba11 off EGCC at 500- fpm. Same route, same flight level. As BAW lobbed off first, [by 1 min,longer route] they got the priority!
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
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On a parallel heading!!
I heard at work yesterday, that them-up-town are about to remove the 500fpm minimum climb/descent rate from the AIP.
Me thinks this is a bad move. Floating down like a leaf is not helpful, particularly in the stacks.
What say you all?
I heard at work yesterday, that them-up-town are about to remove the 500fpm minimum climb/descent rate from the AIP.
Me thinks this is a bad move. Floating down like a leaf is not helpful, particularly in the stacks.
What say you all?
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Me thinks this is a bad move. Floating down like a leaf is not helpful, particularly in the stacks.
On the question of descent rates, when told to expedite descent, how much do you expect?
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I would not personally use "Expedite Descent", I could only forsee 3 scenarios when it comes to level clearances.
1)'When Ready .....' with a possible requirement to be level somewhere...
2)'Descend XXX with XXXXFPM* minimum (*Insert XXXMPM when Metric)
3)'Traffic 12 o'clock 6 miles descend immediately* (*with additional - Like your life depends on it...because it does)
I see no need to say expedite descent as it far from being a POSITIVE control action and does NOT ENSURE SEPARATION.
Of course that would not preclude the use of Expedite Descent for controller amusement.
I await to be corrected by my learned freinds.
1)'When Ready .....' with a possible requirement to be level somewhere...
2)'Descend XXX with XXXXFPM* minimum (*Insert XXXMPM when Metric)
3)'Traffic 12 o'clock 6 miles descend immediately* (*with additional - Like your life depends on it...because it does)
I see no need to say expedite descent as it far from being a POSITIVE control action and does NOT ENSURE SEPARATION.
Of course that would not preclude the use of Expedite Descent for controller amusement.
I await to be corrected by my learned freinds.
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I think the word EXPEDITE quite clearly conveys the required message.
Why go to the trouble of imposing a specific climb/descent rate, unless you're doing a fancy climb under/descent on top?
"Descend immediately" - "ok" thinks pilot, "down I go immediately - at 500fpm"
"Increase your rate of descent" - from 500fpm to 510fpm????
"Expedite your descent through FLxxx" - "I require you to pass the level stated as soon as you possibly can!"
Obviously NOT TO ENSURE SEPARATION. But to get over/under another sector maybe - or in order to release on own navigation sooner? There are plenty of reasons.
Oh, and it's also STANDARD PHRASEOLOGY.
I personally would and do use it. What you do is up to you.
[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: Goldfish Watcher ]
Why go to the trouble of imposing a specific climb/descent rate, unless you're doing a fancy climb under/descent on top?
"Descend immediately" - "ok" thinks pilot, "down I go immediately - at 500fpm"
"Increase your rate of descent" - from 500fpm to 510fpm????
"Expedite your descent through FLxxx" - "I require you to pass the level stated as soon as you possibly can!"
Obviously NOT TO ENSURE SEPARATION. But to get over/under another sector maybe - or in order to release on own navigation sooner? There are plenty of reasons.
Oh, and it's also STANDARD PHRASEOLOGY.
I personally would and do use it. What you do is up to you.
[ 27 July 2001: Message edited by: Goldfish Watcher ]
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Goldfish Watcher,
It is the first time I have ever seen somebody call the use of xxxxfpm as fancy, far from it, it is a very handy tool of the trade and allows you to CONTROL the traffic as in ATC. You use EXPEDITE DESCENT to your hearts content, simply saying it is standard phraseology makes for a good defence here, but the mere fact that somebody asked what exactly it meant , or what we thought it meant reveals the true inadequacies of it. You want someone to be clear of something, give them a requirement in advance so they can plan the descent in the FMS. If you cant due traffic then tell them to expect a late descent with a high rate, or even better call the pesky high sector with no traffic and tell them this one is gonna be high, the use of ExpDes to help you meet your LOA's does seem to be a bit of overkill and wit lose its importance with crews, evry heard about the Boy Crying Wolf.
Of course we are a Team of Indivduals and Im pretty sure it says somewhere in 4444 that nothing shall preclude a controller from using judgement as necessary.......
p.s. I wouldnt take over from someone using EXPEDITE DESCENT until the RA was finished!!!
It is the first time I have ever seen somebody call the use of xxxxfpm as fancy, far from it, it is a very handy tool of the trade and allows you to CONTROL the traffic as in ATC. You use EXPEDITE DESCENT to your hearts content, simply saying it is standard phraseology makes for a good defence here, but the mere fact that somebody asked what exactly it meant , or what we thought it meant reveals the true inadequacies of it. You want someone to be clear of something, give them a requirement in advance so they can plan the descent in the FMS. If you cant due traffic then tell them to expect a late descent with a high rate, or even better call the pesky high sector with no traffic and tell them this one is gonna be high, the use of ExpDes to help you meet your LOA's does seem to be a bit of overkill and wit lose its importance with crews, evry heard about the Boy Crying Wolf.
Of course we are a Team of Indivduals and Im pretty sure it says somewhere in 4444 that nothing shall preclude a controller from using judgement as necessary.......
p.s. I wouldnt take over from someone using EXPEDITE DESCENT until the RA was finished!!!
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Actually over here we have expedite spelled out for the pilots (should have pictures though since they don't seem to get the flick <G> ). When they float down though when I tell them to expedite and it isn't working anymore then the vector comes into effect <G>. They then ask what do you need. I tell them I needed your best and I see that it wasn't good enough, don't worry about it though, we will take care of it for you.... <EG>
I have and do use the FPM stuff when I need to ensure separation though, as well as crossing restrictions. The other stuff is when you are trying to get everyone down for the sequence. Yes, I know, you use the stacks, we have a quaint method of putting them in line and handing them off to approach though <BG>..
regards
I have and do use the FPM stuff when I need to ensure separation though, as well as crossing restrictions. The other stuff is when you are trying to get everyone down for the sequence. Yes, I know, you use the stacks, we have a quaint method of putting them in line and handing them off to approach though <BG>..
regards
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Hi guys,
Here in South America we commonly use climb gradient in %, this will reflet directly in the VSI.... well, keeping it straight:
It is as normal to use a 3,3 % climb gradient as standard , it happens to find different ones as they may and alway vary according to terrain conditions alongside. That's what determines the required climb gradient for each airport.
La paz (Bolivia SLLP), Lima (SPIM), Bogotá DC (SKBO) and some others require a much higher climb gradient up to 5% or more !!
This will of course filter the number of allowable aircrafts to land those airport :-)and to tkoff due to high terrain and atmos. conditions. The airplanes will need more rwy for tkoff.
If I´m not wrong, following ICAO's climb minima, the second segment asks for 2,4% and 1,2% for the third for twin eng.
In the other hand, if impossible to comply, advise ATC, wait for another day, much colder,high pressure and more head wind, pick up your bag and sunglasses,seal the doors and go to the bar:-)
Well, to be straight :-)
Hope this help.
Here in South America we commonly use climb gradient in %, this will reflet directly in the VSI.... well, keeping it straight:
It is as normal to use a 3,3 % climb gradient as standard , it happens to find different ones as they may and alway vary according to terrain conditions alongside. That's what determines the required climb gradient for each airport.
La paz (Bolivia SLLP), Lima (SPIM), Bogotá DC (SKBO) and some others require a much higher climb gradient up to 5% or more !!
This will of course filter the number of allowable aircrafts to land those airport :-)and to tkoff due to high terrain and atmos. conditions. The airplanes will need more rwy for tkoff.
If I´m not wrong, following ICAO's climb minima, the second segment asks for 2,4% and 1,2% for the third for twin eng.
In the other hand, if impossible to comply, advise ATC, wait for another day, much colder,high pressure and more head wind, pick up your bag and sunglasses,seal the doors and go to the bar:-)
Well, to be straight :-)
Hope this help.
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Ops !
the gradients just told are minimums for the event of and one engine failure and are for the second and FOURTH segment:
2 eng 3eng 4eng
1st 2,4% 2,7% 3,0%
4th 1,2% 1,5% 1,7%
Cheers!
the gradients just told are minimums for the event of and one engine failure and are for the second and FOURTH segment:
2 eng 3eng 4eng
1st 2,4% 2,7% 3,0%
4th 1,2% 1,5% 1,7%
Cheers!
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TT
Thank you for for words of extreme wisdom.
I have heard of the boy who cried "wolf". If you are suggesting I over use "expedite" then either you've been listening in on my freqs or you're making a very large assumption from my post.
OK Hands up - fancy was probably the wrong word to use. I do think specific climb/descent rates work in the example I mentioned. Its not a technique I see used often as it still requires as much monitoring as a stepped climb/descent.
Any way - Only putting forward my point of view - no need to jump up and down about it.
Thank you for for words of extreme wisdom.
I have heard of the boy who cried "wolf". If you are suggesting I over use "expedite" then either you've been listening in on my freqs or you're making a very large assumption from my post.
OK Hands up - fancy was probably the wrong word to use. I do think specific climb/descent rates work in the example I mentioned. Its not a technique I see used often as it still requires as much monitoring as a stepped climb/descent.
Any way - Only putting forward my point of view - no need to jump up and down about it.
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Two items come to mind:
1. The US ATCO who said "Climb like your life depends on it - becuase it does".
2. And the legendary Heathrow ATCO who used to ask "What's your max rate of descent".. then add 500fpm to the reply and demand that. And he always got grateful thanks from the crews...!!
1. The US ATCO who said "Climb like your life depends on it - becuase it does".
2. And the legendary Heathrow ATCO who used to ask "What's your max rate of descent".. then add 500fpm to the reply and demand that. And he always got grateful thanks from the crews...!!
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That legendary EGLL ATCO wouldn't be the same one that kept yelling "more jets, more jets" would it?
Rumour had it that I would find you lurking on this coference, long time no speak!!!
Rumour had it that I would find you lurking on this coference, long time no speak!!!
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Guess that answers my question. We need video links to you guys on the ground, with smell-o-vision. If you ask for a descent with a white face and 'smell'. I go down, quick, no questions asked!
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Expedite is all very well, but can mean different things to different people. The Tristar example has already been given, but an A340 in the climb en route HK also springs to mind. So "Expedite" in itself does not ensure separation. I prefer to find out what rate of climb the a/c is able to give me through the relevant level and then specify that or not less than whatever I need. Then at least you are actually CONTROLLING the situation rather than relying upon some pilot (or computer) interpretation of "Expedite".
