What would you say to Air Defence Fighter Controllers?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: North of Birmingham by a lot
What would you say to Air Defence Fighter Controllers?
Following on from the 'Radar Service into NCL'post.
Myself and Avoiding Action will (so long as no one here objects) be briefing the Air Defence world on your inputs and points on how we, often unwittingly, manage to ruin your (Civil ATCOs) day.
So.... (God I'm feeling brave tonight!!).. let's have it then.
In addition to the Radar Service into NCL posts, how could we help you? What specifically, about our own particular approach to control might you consider to be reckless or even dangerous? Any (in your opinion) particularly unco-operative AD controllers around at the moment? etc, etc,...
We would really appreciate any posts serious,humorous, sarcastic or otherwise! It seems as though perhaps this may be a better forum to obtain honest 'shopfloor' opinion rather than the occasional liaison visit or formal management meetings?
As I said, if any one objects then the posts go no further than these pages. But this is a genuine, open and honest request for constructive information or just straight forward abuse!! (Why am I doing this?!!!)
and I think that guys like Bexil 160 will be able to certify that we are who we say we are.
Going to duck behind the parapet now...incoming!!
Cheers ADIS
Myself and Avoiding Action will (so long as no one here objects) be briefing the Air Defence world on your inputs and points on how we, often unwittingly, manage to ruin your (Civil ATCOs) day.
So.... (God I'm feeling brave tonight!!).. let's have it then.
In addition to the Radar Service into NCL posts, how could we help you? What specifically, about our own particular approach to control might you consider to be reckless or even dangerous? Any (in your opinion) particularly unco-operative AD controllers around at the moment? etc, etc,...
We would really appreciate any posts serious,humorous, sarcastic or otherwise! It seems as though perhaps this may be a better forum to obtain honest 'shopfloor' opinion rather than the occasional liaison visit or formal management meetings?
As I said, if any one objects then the posts go no further than these pages. But this is a genuine, open and honest request for constructive information or just straight forward abuse!! (Why am I doing this?!!!)
and I think that guys like Bexil 160 will be able to certify that we are who we say we are.
Going to duck behind the parapet now...incoming!!
Cheers ADIS
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 153
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From: England
ADIS my dear chap,firstly, may I say how brave it is of you to pop the question .
I've often wondered what went on in the dark world of "fighter control", but the one time I asked to visit, I was told it was ever so top secret and it would take clearance from a series of very important neddies to make it so, so I never pursued it.
My neck of the woods and particularly our customers are extremely vunerable to the aircraft you "control".
Basically, we're not all that far away from the North Sea, and a lot of our traffic routes east bound into Holland, Germany, Scandinavia.
If the pilots are really lucky, they'll be going to southern Europe and be able to join CAS via the London TMA.
Otherwise, it's over the North Sea, to do battle with the FIR. Even if they are going above the "middle air", they still have to climb through the FIR, and if they're really unlucky, they'll be going to EHAM and have to stay below F245.
I'll trust you'll not insult us all by suggesting that everyone should route via CAS, (one of your colleagues did suggest it one day :rolleyes
.
To put it in a nutshell, when there is military activity going on which involves fighter control squawks, we know that we're in for a very hard time. Avoiding action is given on numerous occassions, and even though our aircraft are squawking and readilly indentifiable, you never coordinate, and getting through to you is very difficult.
Even when we can get through, we never get put through to the correct "controller" in time, and we just have to avoid.
It my be worth pointing out to your colleagues that our aircraft are, for the most part, large passenger carrying aeroplanes, which are not particularly manouverable in a small envelope of airspace, and were certainly were not designed to be thrown around the sky pulling 6G,(it also pisses off the passengers somewhat).
All I can say is, thank God for London Mil', who do an excellent job in maintaining a sembelence of order in the FIR at these levels.
Rant over.
.I've often wondered what went on in the dark world of "fighter control", but the one time I asked to visit, I was told it was ever so top secret and it would take clearance from a series of very important neddies to make it so, so I never pursued it.
My neck of the woods and particularly our customers are extremely vunerable to the aircraft you "control".
Basically, we're not all that far away from the North Sea, and a lot of our traffic routes east bound into Holland, Germany, Scandinavia.
If the pilots are really lucky, they'll be going to southern Europe and be able to join CAS via the London TMA.
Otherwise, it's over the North Sea, to do battle with the FIR. Even if they are going above the "middle air", they still have to climb through the FIR, and if they're really unlucky, they'll be going to EHAM and have to stay below F245.
I'll trust you'll not insult us all by suggesting that everyone should route via CAS, (one of your colleagues did suggest it one day :rolleyes
.To put it in a nutshell, when there is military activity going on which involves fighter control squawks, we know that we're in for a very hard time. Avoiding action is given on numerous occassions, and even though our aircraft are squawking and readilly indentifiable, you never coordinate, and getting through to you is very difficult.
Even when we can get through, we never get put through to the correct "controller" in time, and we just have to avoid.
It my be worth pointing out to your colleagues that our aircraft are, for the most part, large passenger carrying aeroplanes, which are not particularly manouverable in a small envelope of airspace, and were certainly were not designed to be thrown around the sky pulling 6G,(it also pisses off the passengers somewhat).
All I can say is, thank God for London Mil', who do an excellent job in maintaining a sembelence of order in the FIR at these levels.
Rant over.
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Spoonbill;
Just to really tick you off <G>, they let this unimportant yank into the mil area to sit and chat with the military folks for a while and watch them ply their trade... Of course at the time, I was still in the military reserves, but they didn't know that at the time <G>.
ADIS... Just out of curiousity, why does the military still control all of the mil ops that is flying about? We've controlled all of the IFR / VFR mil ops here for quite a while. In fact we even control a LOT of the Special Use Airspace here. The mil does do all of the large ops and HUGE military complexes still though... But those areas we keep civil aircraft out of...
regards
Just to really tick you off <G>, they let this unimportant yank into the mil area to sit and chat with the military folks for a while and watch them ply their trade... Of course at the time, I was still in the military reserves, but they didn't know that at the time <G>.
ADIS... Just out of curiousity, why does the military still control all of the mil ops that is flying about? We've controlled all of the IFR / VFR mil ops here for quite a while. In fact we even control a LOT of the Special Use Airspace here. The mil does do all of the large ops and HUGE military complexes still though... But those areas we keep civil aircraft out of...
regards
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Hello again ADIS,
This is the IDEAL location for info swapping, as my dear colleague Spoons has shown above. Any exchange of info is gonna a be a good thing, as in my experience problems often arise when one side or the other doesn't appreciate what "the other guy" is trying to do, what limitations he is working under, and what is possible.
Your posts about the NSEA are really valuable and the openess you've shown in trying to encourage dialogue is to be applauded. Now, if only we can get more people read this!
For my own part, are there any current Yeovilton people out there? It would be really useful to have some contact with what used to be (still is??) the D school. I'm sure we can ALL be a bit more flexible down in the SW if we understand a bit more about what you're doing and you people can see what the civil side of the coin is. I've got a reasonable idea, but things have changed a lot in 20 years and we need more dialogue. Both ways.
Thanks again ADIS
Rgds
BEX
P.S. Is "Flight Deck" still going, and can I get a sub(scription)?
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: BEXIL160 ]
This is the IDEAL location for info swapping, as my dear colleague Spoons has shown above. Any exchange of info is gonna a be a good thing, as in my experience problems often arise when one side or the other doesn't appreciate what "the other guy" is trying to do, what limitations he is working under, and what is possible.
Your posts about the NSEA are really valuable and the openess you've shown in trying to encourage dialogue is to be applauded. Now, if only we can get more people read this!
For my own part, are there any current Yeovilton people out there? It would be really useful to have some contact with what used to be (still is??) the D school. I'm sure we can ALL be a bit more flexible down in the SW if we understand a bit more about what you're doing and you people can see what the civil side of the coin is. I've got a reasonable idea, but things have changed a lot in 20 years and we need more dialogue. Both ways.
Thanks again ADIS
Rgds
BEX
P.S. Is "Flight Deck" still going, and can I get a sub(scription)?
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: BEXIL160 ]
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 110
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From: North of the Wall
Bexil,
On the case for you this coming week with the D school - can't guarantee results, but you never know....
Spoonbill,
Could you give us some specific examples of the trouble we've caused - it'll mean more to the chaps we'll be talking to. Ta very much in advance.
I too give avoiding actions - I didn't get this name from a cornflake packet!
AA
On the case for you this coming week with the D school - can't guarantee results, but you never know....
Spoonbill,
Could you give us some specific examples of the trouble we've caused - it'll mean more to the chaps we'll be talking to. Ta very much in advance.
I too give avoiding actions - I didn't get this name from a cornflake packet!
AA
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Moon
I do not know what your telephone system is like but if somebody from Scottish calls you does it display the actual sector or just a generic ScACC name.If the line rings you can bet it is for Controller to Controller coordination regarding a scenario that is changing very quickly so us civvies get a bit
agitated/piss*d off when we are told to "Standby for Controller" by you Mil chappies.
AyrTC.
agitated/piss*d off when we are told to "Standby for Controller" by you Mil chappies.
AyrTC.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6
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From: Scotland
Sorry AyrTC but when you ring us it should always be answered by our Fighter Marshall who only knows the site that is ringing and not the exact console. After he's spoken to you he still has to pass it to the correct console without being able to explain who is calling and weather it is for info or co-ord. And i bet the time you need to talk is the time the controllers busy so the assistant is sure to answer. 
Sorry it's a slow system but it's all we've got.
Sorry it's a slow system but it's all we've got.
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 324
Likes: 1
From: Near VTUU or EGPX
Here's my contribution for what it's worth.
I am valid on both sectors that operate over the North Sea in ScATCC's airspace.
1.It's the Montrose controller who is responsible for answering the phones to AD units, so if you require co-ordination at FL260 or above you've got the right person, if it's FL250 or below please ask for Tay (vertical split is at FL255 !) and as they sit within 6 feet we will get them to pick up the shared line.
2.I don't know if you've got all the Upper Air Routes and Conditional Routes on your video maps, but if we are obviously staying "on-route", it we be much more helpful if you would just avoid us by the requisite 5 miles or 2000 feet rather than wasting a phonecall to tell us that is exactly what you plan to do anyway. We get a lot of this type of call........
3. Below FL245, assume that the civil traffic is receiving Radar Information Service, and only attempt co-ordination if it's absolutely necessary, the Tay controller is busy enough !!
I hope we can keep the dialogue going, we can all learn from this,
Regards,
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: The Fat Controller ]
I am valid on both sectors that operate over the North Sea in ScATCC's airspace.
1.It's the Montrose controller who is responsible for answering the phones to AD units, so if you require co-ordination at FL260 or above you've got the right person, if it's FL250 or below please ask for Tay (vertical split is at FL255 !) and as they sit within 6 feet we will get them to pick up the shared line.
2.I don't know if you've got all the Upper Air Routes and Conditional Routes on your video maps, but if we are obviously staying "on-route", it we be much more helpful if you would just avoid us by the requisite 5 miles or 2000 feet rather than wasting a phonecall to tell us that is exactly what you plan to do anyway. We get a lot of this type of call........
3. Below FL245, assume that the civil traffic is receiving Radar Information Service, and only attempt co-ordination if it's absolutely necessary, the Tay controller is busy enough !!
I hope we can keep the dialogue going, we can all learn from this,
Regards,
[ 22 July 2001: Message edited by: The Fat Controller ]
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
Silva..
Your AD colleagues have made a brave and indeed very welcome attempt to establish some dialogue between all users of what you deem "Open FIR".
Regardless of wether we wear a uniform (of any hue) or not,we are all trying to provide some sort of flexible service in Class G airspace, you seem to indicate that we shouldn't bother. Or have you some othr point to make??
Rgds BEX
Your AD colleagues have made a brave and indeed very welcome attempt to establish some dialogue between all users of what you deem "Open FIR".
Regardless of wether we wear a uniform (of any hue) or not,we are all trying to provide some sort of flexible service in Class G airspace, you seem to indicate that we shouldn't bother. Or have you some othr point to make??
Rgds BEX
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 182
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From: a fence in the sun
In strict response to the title of the thread........
I would say 'Hello Air Defense Fighter Controllers'
Seriously, this is an important issue. I just can't believe that we haven't heard from Hugmonster yet...... And when we do, it won't be pretty!
I would say 'Hello Air Defense Fighter Controllers'
Seriously, this is an important issue. I just can't believe that we haven't heard from Hugmonster yet...... And when we do, it won't be pretty!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 139
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From: North of Birmingham by a lot
Thanks all for the posts. Please keep 'em coming, u haven't hurt our feelings yet!!
SPOONBILL,
If u fancy a visit, we're not so 007ish anymore. Send me a private message or e-mail Avoiding Action and we'll arrange a visit for u and colleagues at your nearest friendly AD base!!
Apologies for our shoddy landlines, please see SMORGs comments'(who is that mysterious man??)
If u are continously (spelling?!)giving avoiding actions against us, persevere with our cruddy comms and ask to speak to the Allocator, hopefully he'll be able to improve your day. If not, tell us...we know where he lives!!
Scott, American Dude,
We control most manoeuvering (spelt Brit style!!) military ops in the UK due to our training in tactics and Air Defence Ops. Our crews feel they get more value from their trg that way. Also we don't have massive ranges such as Nellis and we therefore have to try and fit around civil flights, not ideal but there u go.
BEX, Thanx for your input again, we're chasing D School and Flight Deck. Cheers ADIS
FC,
We do have Air Routes but not CDRs on our kit. Afraid we're not allowed to take Min Sep without formal co-ordination, either on or off route. I know we're tying up your attention but we've gotta do it. (Especially when the Montrose girl with the lovely voice is on!!) Seriously though, we do have an agreement with N Sea that we give them a list of their potentially conflicting squawks, and then agree to avoid all those squawks by min sep. This speeds things up greatly, would this work for u guys?
Northern Sky,
You're a funny guy Laugh... there were ribs flying everywhere....well almost
More banter please Matron!!
Thanx all, more inputs, problems and banter please. This works for us, hope everyone else is getting something out of it.
Cheers ADIS
SPOONBILL,
If u fancy a visit, we're not so 007ish anymore. Send me a private message or e-mail Avoiding Action and we'll arrange a visit for u and colleagues at your nearest friendly AD base!!
Apologies for our shoddy landlines, please see SMORGs comments'(who is that mysterious man??)
If u are continously (spelling?!)giving avoiding actions against us, persevere with our cruddy comms and ask to speak to the Allocator, hopefully he'll be able to improve your day. If not, tell us...we know where he lives!!
Scott, American Dude,
We control most manoeuvering (spelt Brit style!!) military ops in the UK due to our training in tactics and Air Defence Ops. Our crews feel they get more value from their trg that way. Also we don't have massive ranges such as Nellis and we therefore have to try and fit around civil flights, not ideal but there u go.
BEX, Thanx for your input again, we're chasing D School and Flight Deck. Cheers ADIS
FC,
We do have Air Routes but not CDRs on our kit. Afraid we're not allowed to take Min Sep without formal co-ordination, either on or off route. I know we're tying up your attention but we've gotta do it. (Especially when the Montrose girl with the lovely voice is on!!) Seriously though, we do have an agreement with N Sea that we give them a list of their potentially conflicting squawks, and then agree to avoid all those squawks by min sep. This speeds things up greatly, would this work for u guys?
Northern Sky,
You're a funny guy
Laugh... there were ribs flying everywhere....well almost More banter please Matron!!
Thanx all, more inputs, problems and banter please. This works for us, hope everyone else is getting something out of it.
Cheers ADIS
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 139
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From: North of Birmingham by a lot
Rog O,
You're right, the pax aren't told at check in. But most of your traffic that we encounter is on a RIS, 'pilot responsible for separation... even if the conflicting traffic has not been called etc, etc' and they're not told that either. (Not being patronising, just making the point that the rules and procedures are established by people paid lots of dosh to ensure that the UK FIR is a safe place for all users.
However, that said, if people checking in for a flight were told, "Ladies and Gentlemen please sign this disclaimer stating that you are perfectly happy to fly through the centre of a military exercise involving 8 fast jets performing high energy manoueuvres". I think the queue at the check in desk would shorten rapidly.
I fully believe that the way we (AD Controllers) operate is safe, but until we operate in excusively 'military only' airspace we will continue to give u guys cause for concern.
ps. If u haven't already, please see the posts on 'Radar Service into NCL' from about 10 days ago.
pps. The Montrose girl ....English I think, but there's a hint of Scottish also..lovely!
ppps. Hope my verbosity hasn't aggrevated the situation!!!
BOAC,
Bet u only called 'Judy' after being rolled out in perfect position by GCI!!!! And those splash calls... "Bloody 'ell better call 'Splash' or they'll think we're faffing about up here!!
More please Mr!!!
Cheers ADIS
You're right, the pax aren't told at check in. But most of your traffic that we encounter is on a RIS, 'pilot responsible for separation... even if the conflicting traffic has not been called etc, etc' and they're not told that either. (Not being patronising, just making the point that the rules and procedures are established by people paid lots of dosh to ensure that the UK FIR is a safe place for all users.
However, that said, if people checking in for a flight were told, "Ladies and Gentlemen please sign this disclaimer stating that you are perfectly happy to fly through the centre of a military exercise involving 8 fast jets performing high energy manoueuvres". I think the queue at the check in desk would shorten rapidly.
I fully believe that the way we (AD Controllers) operate is safe, but until we operate in excusively 'military only' airspace we will continue to give u guys cause for concern.
ps. If u haven't already, please see the posts on 'Radar Service into NCL' from about 10 days ago.
pps. The Montrose girl ....English I think, but there's a hint of Scottish also..lovely!
ppps. Hope my verbosity hasn't aggrevated the situation!!!
BOAC,
Bet u only called 'Judy' after being rolled out in perfect position by GCI!!!! And those splash calls... "Bloody 'ell better call 'Splash' or they'll think we're faffing about up here!!
More please Mr!!!
Cheers ADIS
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
Likes: 4
From: UK
OK! Perfect position a many years back was to be rolled out in front of the tanker! Thank the Lord they never armed THOSE Victors!
(PS Pleasure it was working with you GCIs)
BOAC
Ex 23(F) Leuchars
(PS Pleasure it was working with you GCIs)
BOAC
Ex 23(F) Leuchars
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 5
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From: scotland
duffers; its bad m8 when all the abuse you expected comes from your own team! don't listen to mirkin, i liked you. still at b####n or did u escape?
as an afterthought does anyone else find the best bit of pruning trying to work out who's who; obviously some make it easier than others...
as an afterthought does anyone else find the best bit of pruning trying to work out who's who; obviously some make it easier than others...
Beady Eye
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,495
Likes: 1
From: UK
In my experience the worst thing is controlling over the North Sea when there are fighters about controlled by AWACS. They think its perfectly acceptable to vector onto your aircraft and turn away at 10 miles, which, whilst perfectly, makes you give avoiding action as a fighter closing on you with unknown intentions makes for a sweaty situation! Absolutely no way to co-ordinate with the AWACS either!!
