ATC myths and misconceptions.
Guest
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ATC myths and misconceptions.
Dear All,
Thought it might be worth exploding a few myths about the dark world of ATC for our pilot colleagues. Came up with these, perhaps you can add some more gems of enlightenment?:
1) There are NO Approach Radar controllers actually at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton. It's all done from TC at West Drayton. (Thames Radar and SVFR excepted, they ARE at EGLL)
2) Just 'cos you've been issued with a squawk, you aren't necesarily getting a RADAR service.
3) NERC (Swanwick Centre) will provide a 30% capcity increase....errrr, NO. It won't.
4)When ATC say "NO DELAY", what they mean is that that possible delay is less than 20 minutes. Honest. This could mean FOUR times around the hold. EATs will be usually be available if the *average* delay gets above 20 mins.
I'm sure you can add to this short list, which is a result of a brief CRM training session (in the bar, where all the BEST CRM training is done).
Rgds
BEX
Thought it might be worth exploding a few myths about the dark world of ATC for our pilot colleagues. Came up with these, perhaps you can add some more gems of enlightenment?:
1) There are NO Approach Radar controllers actually at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and Luton. It's all done from TC at West Drayton. (Thames Radar and SVFR excepted, they ARE at EGLL)
2) Just 'cos you've been issued with a squawk, you aren't necesarily getting a RADAR service.
3) NERC (Swanwick Centre) will provide a 30% capcity increase....errrr, NO. It won't.
4)When ATC say "NO DELAY", what they mean is that that possible delay is less than 20 minutes. Honest. This could mean FOUR times around the hold. EATs will be usually be available if the *average* delay gets above 20 mins.
I'm sure you can add to this short list, which is a result of a brief CRM training session (in the bar, where all the BEST CRM training is done).
Rgds
BEX
Guest
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I would only comment on (4) by saying that at Heathrow Approach we try to give a more realistic estimate of delays, eg "5 minutes" or "five-ten minutes", etc. If I personally say "no delay" to a pilot it means precisely that and no holding will be incurred.
Guest
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Agree with you in the main, but on the subject of delays,assuming you are in AC, when do you ever give "no delay". Surely you use "less than 10mins", "10-15 mins","15-20 mins". The info is there and available so use it as much as you can to give the crews a bit of an inkling.
Guest
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Of course we will try and give a sensible estimate of delay, and further than that, if we can see the stacks on radar and think the delay is Nil when the CCTV says 'Less than 10' then we will say so. However, officially less than 20 minutes is No Delay. Heathrow Director started a thread on R&N regarding BMI Fuel policy which touches on the issue of JAR requiring flight into congested airspace to take on extra fuel for just this reason. It makes interesting reading.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
Guest
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Just want to add a bit about Item 3......
30% increase in capacity ? NO !!!!! as you rightly say.......
And what on earth happens when there's weather about, because the new system will be FAR less flexible that the existing one !!
And......last but by NO means least.......where's all the staff coming from ???????????????????
30% increase in capacity ? NO !!!!! as you rightly say.......
And what on earth happens when there's weather about, because the new system will be FAR less flexible that the existing one !!
And......last but by NO means least.......where's all the staff coming from ???????????????????
Guest
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I guess the Airline Group are just beginning to realise they've been led up the garden path over NERC etc, just as the staff have over the "achievable" bonuses.
We recently had an overwhelming vote in favour of action over PPP, maybe it's time for a quick consultative ballot over the bonuses. I guess the result would be fairly similar.
We recently had an overwhelming vote in favour of action over PPP, maybe it's time for a quick consultative ballot over the bonuses. I guess the result would be fairly similar.
Guest
Posts: n/a
ref "No Delay"...
Yes, you are all correct of course. I (and any U/T that I train) try to give a more realistic estimate of the possible hold. Just look at the stack (either on the radar or CCTV).
The point I was trying to make (badly, by admission) is that EATs don't get issued to a/c until the delay reaches 20 mins. (Yeah, I KNOW that they're sometimes availble when the delay is less, it depends on the TTC).
BTW Stack TV isn't available in AC LATCC, and when NERC opens Depature CCTV will also not be available either. Progress???? I think not.
The original reason for starting this thread was that it seemed to me that many aircrew seem at best a little ignorant of ATC practices. As ATCO's we are rightly encouraged to see things from a pilots point of view. All well and good, but how often have seen a line pilot visit your unit to find out the other side of the coin?? Not very often I'll bet.
To make TRM / CRM work really effectively we need regular (rostered and paid for) Fam flights, AND our Pilot colleagues need to pull a few shifts in ATC. Regularly. (Open can of worms and stand well back........)
Discuss...
rgds
BEX
Yes, you are all correct of course. I (and any U/T that I train) try to give a more realistic estimate of the possible hold. Just look at the stack (either on the radar or CCTV).
The point I was trying to make (badly, by admission) is that EATs don't get issued to a/c until the delay reaches 20 mins. (Yeah, I KNOW that they're sometimes availble when the delay is less, it depends on the TTC).
BTW Stack TV isn't available in AC LATCC, and when NERC opens Depature CCTV will also not be available either. Progress???? I think not.
The original reason for starting this thread was that it seemed to me that many aircrew seem at best a little ignorant of ATC practices. As ATCO's we are rightly encouraged to see things from a pilots point of view. All well and good, but how often have seen a line pilot visit your unit to find out the other side of the coin?? Not very often I'll bet.
To make TRM / CRM work really effectively we need regular (rostered and paid for) Fam flights, AND our Pilot colleagues need to pull a few shifts in ATC. Regularly. (Open can of worms and stand well back........)
Discuss...
rgds
BEX
Guest
Posts: n/a
Another misconception about to go up in smoke:
ATCOs have NO direct control over slot delays, particularly en-route ones, so don't give us a hard time if you've held on the ground for an hour and then get airborne holding as well.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
ATCOs have NO direct control over slot delays, particularly en-route ones, so don't give us a hard time if you've held on the ground for an hour and then get airborne holding as well.
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
Guest
Posts: n/a
One I think should be added, as seen today - YOUR ops file your route, YOUR ops file the levels. Getting airbourne and asking for the direct route and preferred cruise level does NOT mean we'll give it to you, so Brum to Paris via KOKSY at FL230 is what you get and tough if you dont like it. PS dont ever moan at the ATCo who has to tell you or they'll file too.
