NATS to provide at Lulsgate
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A lively debate although maybe slightly off topic now! Not sure about NATS at Bristol but the current setup seems extremely professional and well run at the moment.
Flower: I'm guessing that the 5 airfields in the area you refer to are Cardiff, Bristol, Filton Gloucester and ?, I think the point that Easy Life was making is that Bristol contributes more to the number of movements than the others combined and so it would be suggested that they should work most of the traffic (as with Manchester in the Manchester TMA) I happen to know that Bristol have more up to date equipment as well. Good pilots listen to transmissions and get a mental picture of who is where in the sequence and where traffic effecting their flight is and what it's doing.
Chilli Monster: Should one company have a monopoly in the free market that is modern European ATC? Single European Skys and all that... As far as I know the radar and radios at Bristol belong to Bristol International. Cardiff maybe centrally positioned to the delegated airspace but by that hypothesis airways for England and Wales should be controlled from somewhere between Birmingham and Manchester instead of Swanwick. You can do radar from anywhere nowadays.
Easy Life - Go and visit ATC in Bristol and/or Cardiff if you havent done so, Im sure they'd make you welcome and answer your questions. It's always good to see things from the other side.
Flower: I'm guessing that the 5 airfields in the area you refer to are Cardiff, Bristol, Filton Gloucester and ?, I think the point that Easy Life was making is that Bristol contributes more to the number of movements than the others combined and so it would be suggested that they should work most of the traffic (as with Manchester in the Manchester TMA) I happen to know that Bristol have more up to date equipment as well. Good pilots listen to transmissions and get a mental picture of who is where in the sequence and where traffic effecting their flight is and what it's doing.
Chilli Monster: Should one company have a monopoly in the free market that is modern European ATC? Single European Skys and all that... As far as I know the radar and radios at Bristol belong to Bristol International. Cardiff maybe centrally positioned to the delegated airspace but by that hypothesis airways for England and Wales should be controlled from somewhere between Birmingham and Manchester instead of Swanwick. You can do radar from anywhere nowadays.
Easy Life - Go and visit ATC in Bristol and/or Cardiff if you havent done so, Im sure they'd make you welcome and answer your questions. It's always good to see things from the other side.
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Cardiff maybe centrally positioned to the delegated airspace but by that hypothesis airways for England and Wales should be controlled from somewhere between Birmingham and Manchester instead of Swanwick. You can do radar from anywhere nowadays.
As for the other things - hey, if I had my way (and would be better for the customer) I would not have any radar services supplied by any airfield. I'm not saying it happens but what's to stop one airfield which has airspace delegated to it, giving priority to its own traffic against a nearby airfields that has to join that delegated airspace. A far better solution would have been to have one provider, from various 'mini centres' supplying radar service on an equal basis in a re-sector'd country (and I'm referring to civil and military here) rather than the divide between the sctorised en-rte and the fragmented terminal services we have in the UK at the moment. Seems to work in the US - why can't we manage it here?
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So would a NATS takeover of Bristol ATC be a good or bad thing for either the end user (pilots/airlines), airport company or the ATCOs that work there?
What has been the experience of ATCOs at the few airfields that have been taken over by NATS? What do the members of Bristol ATC think.
My experience has been local authority/quasi-military and transport companies fancying their chances at a bit of transport integration before changing their minds, has NATS yet shaken off the civil service type bureaucracy?
I have it on excellent authority that NATS wish to take over Bristol ATC because they would like a combined radar unit for that part of the world to be there, why are they going down the subcentre route there when they seem to have done a U-turn at Manchester?
What has been the experience of ATCOs at the few airfields that have been taken over by NATS? What do the members of Bristol ATC think.
My experience has been local authority/quasi-military and transport companies fancying their chances at a bit of transport integration before changing their minds, has NATS yet shaken off the civil service type bureaucracy?
I have it on excellent authority that NATS wish to take over Bristol ATC because they would like a combined radar unit for that part of the world to be there, why are they going down the subcentre route there when they seem to have done a U-turn at Manchester?
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Floating harbour, yes pilots pick up a mental picture of traffic on their frequency but there is more than one frequency operating within the same airspace by co located controllers.
Bristol were the ones who said they couldn't work the traffic that we do in the delegated function, thus should we experience Radar failure the airspace reverts to LACC and Bristol doesn't take the traffic on.
It is very simplistic to say well Bristol has the majority of aircraft movements thus it should have the airspace, Bristol however hasn't always had the majority of traffic and what if that situation should change.
The airspace provider and who it is delegated to isn't going to change so why even debate the point. We also work traffic currently well outside the Bristol 40 mile limit but as Chilli said we are centrally located within the airways system.
Bristol do not suffer because NATS manage the airspace in that area, I wish people would stop thinking of it as Cardiff doing the traffic and consider exactly what it is a delegated function ie London airspace.
As for Bristol having more up to date equipment, well they have just had a new tower and radar room so yes it is more up to date but our equipment is hardly out of the ark ( except for our headsets but that will changing we are assured soon) We also have the benefit of Cardiff radar which has excellent low level coverage in that area, something which Clee Hill doesn't.
This is not about one unit being better than the other, this is about hopefully Bristol coming under the NATS mantle
Bristol were the ones who said they couldn't work the traffic that we do in the delegated function, thus should we experience Radar failure the airspace reverts to LACC and Bristol doesn't take the traffic on.
It is very simplistic to say well Bristol has the majority of aircraft movements thus it should have the airspace, Bristol however hasn't always had the majority of traffic and what if that situation should change.
The airspace provider and who it is delegated to isn't going to change so why even debate the point. We also work traffic currently well outside the Bristol 40 mile limit but as Chilli said we are centrally located within the airways system.
Bristol do not suffer because NATS manage the airspace in that area, I wish people would stop thinking of it as Cardiff doing the traffic and consider exactly what it is a delegated function ie London airspace.
As for Bristol having more up to date equipment, well they have just had a new tower and radar room so yes it is more up to date but our equipment is hardly out of the ark ( except for our headsets but that will changing we are assured soon) We also have the benefit of Cardiff radar which has excellent low level coverage in that area, something which Clee Hill doesn't.
This is not about one unit being better than the other, this is about hopefully Bristol coming under the NATS mantle
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I forgot about Exeter, thought the area in question would be more centralised around the Severn Estuary but they certainly are a lot more busier than they used to be. Would a combined unit cover the whole south west area? What about the military users?
Chilli Monster: Are you suggesting Swanwick should do ALL the radar services for the whole UK including approach at the various airfields - that would be rather ambitious, remember how long it's taken to get things to where they are now!
Slotbuster: NATS are a big organisation and are bound to have more bureaucracy than a single regional airport but then that isn't a bad thing if it actually works. I would stick my neck out and say that the controllers at Bristol are actually in an excellent position to improve their lot, they just have to realise that change can be difficult - try and get involved as much as possible in the process to get your preferred result.
Chilli Monster: Are you suggesting Swanwick should do ALL the radar services for the whole UK including approach at the various airfields - that would be rather ambitious, remember how long it's taken to get things to where they are now!
Slotbuster: NATS are a big organisation and are bound to have more bureaucracy than a single regional airport but then that isn't a bad thing if it actually works. I would stick my neck out and say that the controllers at Bristol are actually in an excellent position to improve their lot, they just have to realise that change can be difficult - try and get involved as much as possible in the process to get your preferred result.
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Quite nice to let people have a brief glimpse at what we do.
We have at Cardiff a UHF frequency, this means we work quite a few Military aircraft not least the fact we are the approach unit to a Military Airfield RAF ST Athan.
Military crossers of the airways have increased quite considerably since the increased delegated function.
At the moment we are centred on 40 miles and are unable to offer a radar service outside of that, Exeter is on the edge of the 40 miles. The increase in traffic out of their has certainly increased the workload and as is always the way there are always inbound or outbound aircraft at the same time as inbounds and outbounds out of Cardiff Bristol and Filton
We have at Cardiff a UHF frequency, this means we work quite a few Military aircraft not least the fact we are the approach unit to a Military Airfield RAF ST Athan.
Military crossers of the airways have increased quite considerably since the increased delegated function.
At the moment we are centred on 40 miles and are unable to offer a radar service outside of that, Exeter is on the edge of the 40 miles. The increase in traffic out of their has certainly increased the workload and as is always the way there are always inbound or outbound aircraft at the same time as inbounds and outbounds out of Cardiff Bristol and Filton
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Are you suggesting Swanwick should do ALL the radar services for the whole UK including approach at the various airfields - that would be rather ambitious, remember how long it's taken to get things to where they are now!
Before Swanwick was built the entire ATC map and idea behind service should have been re-written on a clean sheet of paper. Don't think in terms of what we have now (Swanwick) - more like 2, 3 or 4 facilities like it for the whole country.
It works overseas - why not here? (Especially considering the sheer physical size, or lack of it, of the UK).
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Look at the trend of how NATS is going - if they get the contract, the chances are that the present controllers will be moving to the South coast (or Prestwick!?) to become TC Bristol (or TC Severn etc) .
Now.. if we could only get the airspace in and around EGDM from the military.....
WMD
Now.. if we could only get the airspace in and around EGDM from the military.....
WMD
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I take it such centralisation is perceived as a bad thing? I'm sure for a start that the staff concerned wouldn't want to relocate. I'd imagine there would be much more of a requirement for increased areas of controlled airspace which would have much opposition.
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Off topic, but isn't what chilli monster advocates similar to the environment that existed in ATC a few years back, with Eastern Radar, Penine Radar, Northern Radar etc? The authorities that be did away with that system under the auspices of improvement and modernisation.
Back on subject, it's bad news for those of us outside NATS as an acceptance decision by Bristol will deny us a chance at another decent job at a regional airfield. Where's my chance of an improved job now
I'm not likely to get taken on by NATS externally am I 
Back on subject, it's bad news for those of us outside NATS as an acceptance decision by Bristol will deny us a chance at another decent job at a regional airfield. Where's my chance of an improved job now
I'm not likely to get taken on by NATS externally am I
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be interesting to know what the terms are for Bristol, provision of service by NATS is normally reckoned to be much more expensive than 'inhouse' either NATS really want the deal and think costs can be cut enough to keep the cost to Bristol within reasonable bounds or Bristol reason its the only way to guarantee continous supply of suitably qualified ATCO's
would not be suprised at all to find NATS more aggresive in applying to take on ATC at other units!
would not be suprised at all to find NATS more aggresive in applying to take on ATC at other units!
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Oh to be away for a day and miss the fun..
Eastern me old mucker, yep it appears I've walked out of the frying pan into the fire. Maybe I'll get a set of keys for the asylum after all!!
From rumours I've heard, it seems that NATS are a bit desperate to bring Brizzel into the fold. Certainly dropping the contract price by that much
would seem to indicate so.
Certain people make it sound like Cardiff is a shoe in to get a combined radar function for both units, but I'm not so sure. Let's just say I wouldn't rush down to Willy Hill's for the latest SP. There are arguments for and against both units taking the function and I'd prefer it to be here, natch. But some people make it sound as if just because Bristol is non-NATS now, that we couldn't handle a combined "doing area function as London, vectoring all the traffic in the west of Engerland and parts of the western darklands as well as Exeter etc etc blah blah......." Well I know there is a culture in NATS of "if they're non NATS then they wouldn't be able to cope", but quite frankly, most of the best ATCO's I've worked with have been non-NATS, either through choice or because they weren't very good at chatting up their OJTI's. Some of us work quieter non-NATS units and some of us work at very busy non-NATS units, but that doesn't neccessarily mean we couldn't work a very busy NATS workload. Especially for very big NATS wages!
Eastern me old mucker, yep it appears I've walked out of the frying pan into the fire. Maybe I'll get a set of keys for the asylum after all!!
From rumours I've heard, it seems that NATS are a bit desperate to bring Brizzel into the fold. Certainly dropping the contract price by that much
would seem to indicate so. Certain people make it sound like Cardiff is a shoe in to get a combined radar function for both units, but I'm not so sure. Let's just say I wouldn't rush down to Willy Hill's for the latest SP. There are arguments for and against both units taking the function and I'd prefer it to be here, natch. But some people make it sound as if just because Bristol is non-NATS now, that we couldn't handle a combined "doing area function as London, vectoring all the traffic in the west of Engerland and parts of the western darklands as well as Exeter etc etc blah blah......." Well I know there is a culture in NATS of "if they're non NATS then they wouldn't be able to cope", but quite frankly, most of the best ATCO's I've worked with have been non-NATS, either through choice or because they weren't very good at chatting up their OJTI's. Some of us work quieter non-NATS units and some of us work at very busy non-NATS units, but that doesn't neccessarily mean we couldn't work a very busy NATS workload. Especially for very big NATS wages!
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from what I've read it seems that NATS is quite desperate to get Bristol, all this talk of dropping the contract price. Either they're now leaving something out of the deal, treating the whole thing as a loss-leader or just want to show to the world that they're able to get contracts at slightly larger units. Look out Newcastle and East Mids! (Bournemouth and Norwich in the bag yet?)
I'm sure that our colleagues at Bristol could handle the traffic, they're doing a great job at the moment. ....and for our Cardiff colleagues - you do a great job as well but you have to acknowledge you owe a lot to your busy neighbour accross the Severn otherwise you'd be twiddling your thumbs most of the time!
I'm sure that our colleagues at Bristol could handle the traffic, they're doing a great job at the moment. ....and for our Cardiff colleagues - you do a great job as well but you have to acknowledge you owe a lot to your busy neighbour accross the Severn otherwise you'd be twiddling your thumbs most of the time!
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Further consideration I'm sure for Bristol is the upcoming requirements for ATS providers when 'European Single Sky' gets underway
Big headaches all round 
Bl**dy Europeans
ATC provision contracted out = pain removal without paracetamol
Big headaches all round Bl**dy Europeans ATC provision contracted out = pain removal without paracetamol
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Ah Standard back to the warm bossom of your beloved Nats. What a lovely warm feeling and you always spoke so highly of them!!
Maybe Ferrovial could do a " Buy one Get One Free " for them and we could both sort out our pensions!!
Maybe Ferrovial could do a " Buy one Get One Free " for them and we could both sort out our pensions!!
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TR - I'm not as close to my pension as you, so I'm not just as worried about my advancing years.
As for NAZI, sorry, I mean NATS, I'm not sure they want me back after the last time, I did use some colourful expressions in my time there. Still, if they give jobs to eastern & co then there may be hope for me yet.
I thought BOGOF deals were only available in Tesco, but if it helps you get to Muckamore quicker then it might not be a bad idea.
As for NAZI, sorry, I mean NATS, I'm not sure they want me back after the last time, I did use some colourful expressions in my time there. Still, if they give jobs to eastern & co then there may be hope for me yet.
I thought BOGOF deals were only available in Tesco, but if it helps you get to Muckamore quicker then it might not be a bad idea.
