BMA bus drivers with an ATC ticket!

[chillin_with_a_bud]

Seems like a can of worms on my first Post! oppps.
As an added extra I took the time to look at the radar replay and RT transcript and its interesting.
Due to the conplexity of the situation and numbers of aircraft the R/T from my side was pretty standard and concise until the Midland pilots "chat". His awareness seems to be because the E145 was transferred first, it was ahead on his TCAS where as it was actually behind by 5 miles and 20kts slower! Thye one in front was 8 miles in the lead and 20kts faster, seems like streaming to me. The reason for the order of transfer is that the SID from EGPH cons into conflict with traffic fro EGPF if they do not make levels by Lanak(which this BMA pilot did but its better to wait and confirm).



Some of the comments to this line seem a bit far. We all work hard and my understanding of the complexities of flying a passenger aircraft are far lower than they should be in a perfect world and I would willingly spend my days off to learn more but you must trust us to do our job. This kind of second guessing will, not might, cause a serious problem at some time or other.


if it helps others, this is my action. I have watched and listened to the occurance in the cold light of day.
1. Chirp report filed and transcripts held
2. My supervisor is trying to locate the Liason Officer to have a chat and perhaps offer my reasoning for my actions.
3. Go back to doing my job.
There is no need for officaldom as I believe we all have good and not so good days. But, pilots out there, we love to see you in our place and I beleive we can supply you with canteen food(new chefs pretty good!) In return, get your companies to return to fam flights or even something similar to the BA course that used to be run.

i am prouud to be in this industry and as far as I am concerned it is one of the most proffesional in the world, lets keep it that way!!!!!!!

[javelin]

Chillin - this is the way forward !

I have visited MAN, LBA and NCL on several occasions, I have taken them flying, I have watched them work. Despite all the post 9/11 stuff, we can still offer you Fam Flights so please do take advantage and come out and see what we mean. Every ATC person I have taken flying has gone away with a positive and different view, likewise I learned a lot from visiting the radar rooms

I should add that in all the forums on Pprune, you do tend to get a better standard of conversation here, despite the lack of pilots

[Mahaba]

Not wishing to stir up this can of worms any further than has been done already but...as a valid MAN radar controller often finding myself in the position described; as far as we're concerned we have NO flexibility or mandate to disregard the southbound speed trial with regard to positioning of traffic or speeds flown on traffic presented to LONDON/LACC. As far as most of us are concerned however (with much appreciated exceptions) when it comes to the northbound flow into MACC we 'get what we're given'. Our comments book is full of our concerns regarding presentation and speeds assigned to aircraft presented to us.
Your position in traffic changes regardless of assigned headings and speeds due to factors largely unknown to the LACC controller when he makes his 'plan' and positions you into a stream which you interpret as 1,2,3. These include Birmingham departures, East Midlands departures, EGCC runway in use, Joining traffic at TNT, EGNM inbound traffic, EGGP inbound traffic, EGNR inbound traffic, EGNX inbound traffic from the north etc. In a perfect world where you are the only stream of a/c in the sky, the LACC controllers plan would work, no doubt. It is not a perfect world. Once you arrive on 134.42/133.4 we are vectoring and streaming according to factors unknown to LACC and to a situation which can be so fluid and rapidly developing that it actually changes as you fly through our airspace on the short run into Dayne. It can change to the point that we do not know even if you can expect to hold until you are very close to Dayne and that decision can be based on your rate or descent which can be greatly reduced by any speed restrictions which we have to apply. Wether you agree or not does not change the fact that we do not have what we want, more airspace, less chance of holding, less crowded TMA's etc but despite our restrictions we do the best we can with what we have in the safest, fastest and most professional manner that we can, and I believe that we do ourselves proud, I'd be dissappointed if you boys with wings thought otherwise.

[Tarten Army]

I do realize, javelin, that it has two A's but a more literate country man of mine had nabbed it before me. As for ganging up, we wouldn't do that, just trying to get the banter going.
Though it does amaze me how many pilots think that having a good old moan will do them any good, cos it does just the opposite. If you do have a genuine complaint get on the phone to the watch supervisor afterwards, though i doubt he would consider your idea of queue jumping alarming enough to take his feet off the desk and eyes off the newspaper.

[javelin]

Tarten, Probably right, bit like me taking my feet off the footrests just before the outer marker !

Good to vent the spleen now and again though

Mahaba, You are right, I don\'t have any gripes with MAN controllers, you all do a great job with limited sky. We always end up a touch high on 24 but we know that is because of terrain, 06 can be variable and you will try and fetch us southside in the middle of the night. Fam Flights are available if you want.

Must apologise to the original thread starter as this has been hijacked a bit but it is still sort of on subject.

[king eric]

I think maybe we need to be educated about speed control, because I just don't get it! If I ask a pilot to fly at 250kts at margo fl 260 he moans, but if at fl 260 at margo I inform the pilot he might hold he offers to reduce to 210kts!!!

The TMA's are getting busier all the time, and speed control is becoming essential to prevent holding. Hate to say it but it's no longer sleepy scotland!

[Mahaba]

Javelin

A couple of points;
1. With regard to you being a touch high, we all I think fully accept that this can be the case and we also know that its not ideal when we have already reduced your speed then asked you for a good rate of descent, it's even embarrassing to ask you for it sometimes. The problems we have with 24 can occur because when you are streamed over the LESTA side of the TMA the base is quite high, if we then try to get you a base leg we often find ourselves stuck at 70 'till you pass Camphill which we have to consider active. We also don't get airborne times any more from BB deps climbing north so we must allow for them getting airborne at a bad time against your descent. On 06 we do try to cut you across if we can but that gets you snarled up with BB/NX drops from the north. As we all get busy I'm afraid there's very often something in the way there.
2. Fam flights. This may be slightly contentious but if my info is correct MACC was the only centre which lost all of its Fam flights after 9/11. Even now though they are trickling back they are very restricted, considering our numbers and even more restricted on the amount of airlines/destinations available. By the time we have meandered through the minefield of paperwork for the flight for weeks in advance, our rosters may have changed (we get them on the 20th at the latest for the next month). This may be one of the reasons for the lack of response on that front. Long haul fam flights are unavailable at MACC. I believe the other units may still do them. Too political to get into for this thread but rest assured we know your concerns and we do try to give you as much as we safely can to help your times and fuel concerns etc. Remember when we all enjoyed these jobs? seems to be drifting further away each day.

[b mi baby]

ATC Fam Flights

For information only, here is a quote from a company memo which reflects the DOT position with respect to flight deck access and ATC Officers...

The Department considers the following to be acceptable as persons having an operational need (“permitted persons”) to enter, or to enter and remain on, the flight deck:

(vi) Air Traffic Control officers on official business;

[Barry Cuda]

b mi baby, thanks for that, if only I had known that last week...

I was flying back from Teesside to Heathrow so decided to ask the Midland Ops a few days before if it would be possible to get the jump seat (I had already payed for my ticket so I wasn't trying to defraud them!!!). The guy on the other end said that wasn't possible and offered no explanation!!!

Still, the cabin crew managed to get me an upgrade when I said I was ATC... Once again its management 0, workers 1!!!!

[Yellow Sun]

Barry Cuda

I was flying back from Teesside to Heathrow so decided to ask the Midland Ops a few days before if it would be possible to get the jump seat (I had already payed for my ticket so I wasn't trying to defraud them!!!).

Problem is the paragraph:

(vi) Air Traffic Control officers on official business;

Is interpreted as being on the flight for that specific purpose, not "travelling on official business" (which may or may not have been the case) The Dft are not liberal in their interpretation of the rules and we have to live with them. It's not that we don't want you, but the procedures laid down by the Dft have to be followed, there are just no shortcuts. May I suggest that you contact the company ATC liaison manager and discuss the matter with him. If he can help he will.

PS Barry C - see your PMs

Rgds
YS

[atcea.com]

I'VE GOT THE FLICK - DO YOU?

Jav, in the U.S. at a number of airports the controllers "meter" arrivals. How that works: when an aircraft crosses a circle 150 miles from the destination airport, the computer - based on airport acceptance rate, winds, etc. - calculates a time for the plane to cross the 75 mile ring. Controllers will use speed control and vectors (or holding, if necessary) to meet those times.

For example, you leave Boston for Denver and over upstate New York you fall 10 miles in trail of another Denver arrival. Later, he crosses the 150 ring from Denver, then an aircraft from the southeast, then one from the northeast, then one from the southwest, then you.

You just went from being number two to being number five in line. If you ask the controller, "Where's my traffic?" he may well reply "twelve o'clock, 300 miles."

TCAS doesn't really give you the whole picture, does it?

[Scott Voigt]

I always find it quite fun to show pilots (I am one by the way) how we do things from this end of the mic and why... Classroom is half a day and then we let them sit with a controller for a while and then put them on the simulator for bit trying to separate some aircraft. It is interesting to hear the comments after the days session. The enlightenment is HUGE and they all have a much better understanding of why it all happens the way it does. In my opinion, EVERY pilot should be REQUIRED to spend a day in class going over what happens in the airspace and why. It does NOT need to be taught by a pilot telling other pilots all that they THINK that they know about the current ATC system. It is usually not complete and full of myth... It needs to be taught by current controllers who are still working full time...

regards

Scott

[javelin]

atcea & Scott.

I do fly over your side and we get in trail spacing vectors and speed control when we plough down to Florida along the eastern seaboard (A330). It works well, the only snag is that we sometimes get very early descents into the area - 250 miles out is not uncommon - there goes another half tonne of fuel !

I have also spent time at our local area radar and played on their simulator - very interesting ! It took me about 5 minutes to degenerate to all domestic carriers go to the centre fix - all foreign carriers hold and await further instructions !

I agree that we need more knowledge of each other's particular skills, oh to have that level of cooperation and time available.

[Shiny side down]

I was flying south some months back in our little slug, When ATC (french female with a deep dusky voice) asked our speed in descent.
275 indicated!
Keep 300 she asked.
Sorry, 275 max.

Then to my (and the skippers eternal embarrasment), each a/c in sequence behind was given instruction to maintain 275 max in descent.

Shrank in me seat until the cheeky BM behind said to atc he could give her 320 if that would get him by us.

Next moment, we are being vectored out of the way and every bugger behind seemed to be sailing by.

Several things come from this.

1. I appreciate and expect ATC will sequence things as appropriate as the picture develops.

2. We (in our slugs) also expend extra fuel when things do not go as expected.

3. The extra time in my log book was much appreciated (about 10 minutes in the end) Moves me closer to the day when I can say I can give you 320kts if it will get me around the slow thing in front.


I have spent a few observation days with controllers, and still find it incredible that they get things tidied up so well. I did comment on what seemed like rough justice to a few B757 who got sequenced as one once, until the controller clarified the big picture.

I believe that ATC keep an appreciation of what we are trying to do as much as we appreciate their efforts.