NERC.... The story so far..
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To help people who haven't had the opportunity of squinting at the NERC fonts, you can get a good approximation of what we are talking about here by going to your copy of MS Word (or Works!) and typing a few lines using the font :
Abadi MT condensed Size 8
Try something like LFPG..RATUK.L613.EGSS .Now sit back and try to count the number of dots. Did you find yourself involuntarily leaning forward and/or squinting to see better? Imagine having to try to read this font for 2 HOURS.
Okay, this isn't the exact font, but what is? What size is it and at what DPI is it displayed? Any NERC techie people care to answer?
Rgds BEX
Abadi MT condensed Size 8
Try something like LFPG..RATUK.L613.EGSS .Now sit back and try to count the number of dots. Did you find yourself involuntarily leaning forward and/or squinting to see better? Imagine having to try to read this font for 2 HOURS.
Okay, this isn't the exact font, but what is? What size is it and at what DPI is it displayed? Any NERC techie people care to answer?
Rgds BEX
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To Take3...
The TDB has THREE selectable sizes already. Small/medium/large.
How would changing the other fonts affect this? Can they be made selectable also?
BEX.
P.S. If you are worried about the increased size of the windows meaning increased Window Tax, that particular law was repealed several centuries ago. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
The TDB has THREE selectable sizes already. Small/medium/large.
How would changing the other fonts affect this? Can they be made selectable also?
BEX.
P.S. If you are worried about the increased size of the windows meaning increased Window Tax, that particular law was repealed several centuries ago. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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spot on bexil.... .that font is about the size of it.. .as an example, ever tried reading the weather from the "met summary" page (I think) - without expanding it? It must be at least 1/3 size of the list of pprune links down the left side of this page.. ....and as for the lighting... I can only think that the design brief was to produce a "cool" building rather than a decent working environment.
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Can I just point out that the reason management will be against any changes/whinges will be stated as 'contrary to surveys'. The real reason will be found in the fine print of the contract specifications ie; those specs that were made when there was no 'survey' and now require $$$ to change. Managers are averse to spending money, not fixing problems. It is a shame the two are intertwined.. .Just my experience.
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As non-ATC but someone who has always thought of Brit ATC as just about the best in the world (considering what I have heard from my many wonderful jumpseat stays over the past 20 yrs) I am totally appalled that the key senses that ATC relies on, sight and sound, have not been "provisioned" correctly.
When I saw the pic of the new Ops room my first reaction as a 'puter user, was GLARE!!! Then when I hear that not only are the headsets inadequate but the screen displays cannot let sections "enlarge" upon selection by the operator (as do dealer-desks in the City) I am stunned....saddened ... and feel very helpless. Who did the spec' for lighting, headsets and screens? I am happy folks sit in a big space with pretty pictures on the wall but if I were an ATCO (alas too old to train now dammit!) I wouldn't care too much about my environment if I had user-friendly kit! Is NERC management able to do something to make things work? upgrade equipment? or have they been so hog-tied by government or whoever that there is no discretion....geesh...guess all I can say is Good Luck and hope y'all don't get too many headaches.
When I saw the pic of the new Ops room my first reaction as a 'puter user, was GLARE!!! Then when I hear that not only are the headsets inadequate but the screen displays cannot let sections "enlarge" upon selection by the operator (as do dealer-desks in the City) I am stunned....saddened ... and feel very helpless. Who did the spec' for lighting, headsets and screens? I am happy folks sit in a big space with pretty pictures on the wall but if I were an ATCO (alas too old to train now dammit!) I wouldn't care too much about my environment if I had user-friendly kit! Is NERC management able to do something to make things work? upgrade equipment? or have they been so hog-tied by government or whoever that there is no discretion....geesh...guess all I can say is Good Luck and hope y'all don't get too many headaches.
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WHAT THE @*** !. .Bex, how can you read it. I have trouble on my TFT screen using that font!
How can you safely control?
Well if your eye sight is okayed by SRG (Which it must be) and you have an incidendent relating to the font size, could make for a very interesting court case!
Of course your management and SRG have indicated that the size of the font is acceptable for it to permit the use of the new displays and therefore MUST be safe.
BEX actually you must be joking, in this world of Corp liability, it must be your eyes to blame, I suggest you seek an SRG medical check as soon as posible! Remember SRG and your authorities do not have a problem reading the info that you have to!
How can you safely control?
Well if your eye sight is okayed by SRG (Which it must be) and you have an incidendent relating to the font size, could make for a very interesting court case!
Of course your management and SRG have indicated that the size of the font is acceptable for it to permit the use of the new displays and therefore MUST be safe.
BEX actually you must be joking, in this world of Corp liability, it must be your eyes to blame, I suggest you seek an SRG medical check as soon as posible! Remember SRG and your authorities do not have a problem reading the info that you have to!
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Sadly, I am deadly serious, as other NERC users will confirm. In fact the fonts in use at Swanwick are poorer in resolution, in my opinion.
Glare is an issue. Already on the South Sector group my colleagues try to avoid using the workstations next to the walls because of reflections from the ceiling lighting.
Despite all these handicaps the operational ATCOs and ATSAs (and whats left of our ATEs) are providing the best service possible, in some instances "cherry picking" some flights that have picked up inordinate flow delays and can be accomodated without too much hassle. (Mostly low performance types at the lower alts).
What concerns me greatly is there appears to be a complete lack of urgency from NATS mangement about fixing these problems.
BEX <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Glare is an issue. Already on the South Sector group my colleagues try to avoid using the workstations next to the walls because of reflections from the ceiling lighting.
Despite all these handicaps the operational ATCOs and ATSAs (and whats left of our ATEs) are providing the best service possible, in some instances "cherry picking" some flights that have picked up inordinate flow delays and can be accomodated without too much hassle. (Mostly low performance types at the lower alts).
What concerns me greatly is there appears to be a complete lack of urgency from NATS mangement about fixing these problems.
BEX <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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BEXIL;
The FAA told us too that ON NO, NOTHING CAN BE CHANGED!!!! That was before the press release. After that, oh you only want THAT changed <G>. Actually it was our administrator asking her underlings, "This is all they want? We don't have a problem with this do we gentlemen????"
We've made quite a few changes over the last couple of years and we aren't done with it yet. Going at the speed of lack of money <G>.
Good luck with it...
regards
The FAA told us too that ON NO, NOTHING CAN BE CHANGED!!!! That was before the press release. After that, oh you only want THAT changed <G>. Actually it was our administrator asking her underlings, "This is all they want? We don't have a problem with this do we gentlemen????"
We've made quite a few changes over the last couple of years and we aren't done with it yet. Going at the speed of lack of money <G>.
Good luck with it...
regards
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Try this chaps and chapesses, this is what I specify and have specified over the last ten years.
Character Size. Numbers, letters and symbols associated in a datablock shall be of such a size that they are clearly readable from the controller's normal operating position at the console. It is recommended that the minimum size should be 4mm.
The minimum size of the characters should correspond to the following formula:
Character Height = Viewing Distance in mm X 0.0002908 mm / minute of arc. .Where; Character Height = 20' of arc. .Character width = 70% of height. .Stroke Width = 12% of height. .Space between characters = 20% of width. .Space between rows = 30% of height (radar label only). .(For continuous lines of text the row space = 60% of height minimum)
What is so important about the size of the window? When it is "see through" and "control through", there is no real problem as it becomes relatively unimportant. The font size remains important though.
All the best in NERC, I was doing my bit in the 80's but nobody would listen. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Character Size. Numbers, letters and symbols associated in a datablock shall be of such a size that they are clearly readable from the controller's normal operating position at the console. It is recommended that the minimum size should be 4mm.
The minimum size of the characters should correspond to the following formula:
Character Height = Viewing Distance in mm X 0.0002908 mm / minute of arc. .Where; Character Height = 20' of arc. .Character width = 70% of height. .Stroke Width = 12% of height. .Space between characters = 20% of width. .Space between rows = 30% of height (radar label only). .(For continuous lines of text the row space = 60% of height minimum)
What is so important about the size of the window? When it is "see through" and "control through", there is no real problem as it becomes relatively unimportant. The font size remains important though.
All the best in NERC, I was doing my bit in the 80's but nobody would listen. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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There is a huge wedge of paperwork which 'proves' that all the NERC font sizes etc. exceed the British Standards.. .BEXIL. .I am sure that there are a LOT more operational staff who have trouble but if they don't report (note I said in my earlier response in BOLD, "reported") it and just mutter in the background then nothing much will get done. Also your perception of the 'space' in the windows to increase the character size is not correct. Without giving a techie answer (think about how you build a web page with HTML etc. etc.) what you see in the window isn't what actual 'space' there is to play with.. .The bottom line is:. .Yes of course its all down to cost.
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Hmmm... I've seen paperwork relating to USMil specs, but nothing about British Standards. If what you say is true, then the standard is WRONG. The fonts ARE too small.
I'll take you word for the space available, but why not just make all the windows BIGGER, and how come there ARE selectable fonts for the TDB?
Shortage of money is all very well. What are NERC gonna do when half their controlers and assistants are off sick durring the summer with VDU induced migraines? That WILL cost someone a lot of £/€/$.
BEX
I'll take you word for the space available, but why not just make all the windows BIGGER, and how come there ARE selectable fonts for the TDB?
Shortage of money is all very well. What are NERC gonna do when half their controlers and assistants are off sick durring the summer with VDU induced migraines? That WILL cost someone a lot of £/€/$.
BEX
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Hey Bex-fascinating stuff from the perspective of OSC (i.e. not NSC). We'll swop you Skyline for your kit-there's a big van on the way. Oh and we'll have the nice pictures as well!. .Have a good summer.
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I understand that Skyline ain't perfect either <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> but then I still have a fond spot for LOCUS16.....Then I still have a fond spot for the Golf Inn and RedBrae Rockets. (Who?)
OSC? Ahhh you mean the ex Scottish Coal Board HQ. It seems in keeping then that NERC is on the site of an Old Brickworks.
There is a lesson here for those (lucky) people North of the border. Should McNerc ever get started again I would urge as many operational people as possible to GET INVOLOVED IN THE PROJECT. You might then just avoid having to put everything right (and argue about the cost) after it's built.
Dreaming of a summer at Largs.... .Rgds BEX
OSC? Ahhh you mean the ex Scottish Coal Board HQ. It seems in keeping then that NERC is on the site of an Old Brickworks.
There is a lesson here for those (lucky) people North of the border. Should McNerc ever get started again I would urge as many operational people as possible to GET INVOLOVED IN THE PROJECT. You might then just avoid having to put everything right (and argue about the cost) after it's built.
Dreaming of a summer at Largs.... .Rgds BEX
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> I would urge as many operational people as possible to GET INVOLOVED IN THE PROJECT.
Bexil, you've put your finger right on it there.
Over the 6+ years that the NERC system has been in test at Swanwick, we've gone through probably four iterations of fonts and colours. In each case, the changes have been at the behest of some one loudly proclaiming, "I represent the controllers. Let me tell you what we really want."
Reading this thread, I'm moved to ask, where were you guys? Except I know the answer -- working your real job. But please realise it wasn't from lack of interest by the implementers that we ended with what we have.
I'll be fascinated to see how well you get on with your proposed changes, given the current political/financial circumstances.
And congrats and thanks to you all who are working hard to make NERC, so far, look pretty good.
Bexil, you've put your finger right on it there.
Over the 6+ years that the NERC system has been in test at Swanwick, we've gone through probably four iterations of fonts and colours. In each case, the changes have been at the behest of some one loudly proclaiming, "I represent the controllers. Let me tell you what we really want."
Reading this thread, I'm moved to ask, where were you guys? Except I know the answer -- working your real job. But please realise it wasn't from lack of interest by the implementers that we ended with what we have.
I'll be fascinated to see how well you get on with your proposed changes, given the current political/financial circumstances.
And congrats and thanks to you all who are working hard to make NERC, so far, look pretty good.
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I was led to believe that colours and fonts were chosen by a, wait for it.... art college-as they were relaxing on the eye! Also i've been told that the DPI standard which is being quoted by some only relates to PRINTED matter not VDU's.. .Those that have the power to address this have been told allegedly-so if/when someone cocks up they can't claim they didn't know.
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TORPIDS. .I would be very interested to know why you think there is a mass of paperwork with the HSE [quote] proving <hr></blockquote> that the fonts are not to standard. HSE only took an interest in mid January and had a visit, then asked for proof of compliance with the relevant legislation - TI: The Health and Safety (Display Screen Equipment) Regulations 1992 . .CD: Made 5th November 1992. Laid before Parliament 16th November 1992.. .Coming into force 1st January 1993 . .PB: London : HMSO 1992 . .SE: Statutory Instruments; SI 1992/2792. HEALTH AND SAFETY . .IB: 011025919X . .However the NERC system was designed before 1993 - The suppliers were required to use the following standards or equivalents as. .the basis for the Human Factors design:
a) DEF STAN 00-25 - Human Factors for Designers of Equipment.. .b) MIL STD 1472D - Human Engineering Design Criteria.
The equivalent standard used for the design of the Human Computer Interface. .(HCI) was DIN 66 234 Part 1
HSE also had some supplementary questions, which (as I understand it) NATS are answering as soon as possible. But mainly it has been a matter of satisfying the criteria of the DSE regulations, which the system does as follows:-. .The equivalent standard used for the design of the Human Computer Interface. .(HCI) was DIN 66 234 Part 1, which includes a statement that the text height. .shall appear at a visual angle of at least 18 minutes. The font used for. .all the text in the accepted bay window is Helvetica and an angle of 18. .minutes equates to 10 point text when seen from the design optimum viewing. .distance of around 0.5 metre. The text within the accepted bay varies. .between 10 point and 14 point. The. .smallest text is within the standard, and the text of critical data such as. .entry and exit Flight Level exceeds the required standard.. .For those interested, the smallest NERC font size is Helvetica 10 point (but flight critical data is 14 point) the height is 2.54mm and for 14 point its 4.94mm (to get pixel size take point size and multiply by 0.254).
a) DEF STAN 00-25 - Human Factors for Designers of Equipment.. .b) MIL STD 1472D - Human Engineering Design Criteria.
The equivalent standard used for the design of the Human Computer Interface. .(HCI) was DIN 66 234 Part 1
HSE also had some supplementary questions, which (as I understand it) NATS are answering as soon as possible. But mainly it has been a matter of satisfying the criteria of the DSE regulations, which the system does as follows:-. .The equivalent standard used for the design of the Human Computer Interface. .(HCI) was DIN 66 234 Part 1, which includes a statement that the text height. .shall appear at a visual angle of at least 18 minutes. The font used for. .all the text in the accepted bay window is Helvetica and an angle of 18. .minutes equates to 10 point text when seen from the design optimum viewing. .distance of around 0.5 metre. The text within the accepted bay varies. .between 10 point and 14 point. The. .smallest text is within the standard, and the text of critical data such as. .entry and exit Flight Level exceeds the required standard.. .For those interested, the smallest NERC font size is Helvetica 10 point (but flight critical data is 14 point) the height is 2.54mm and for 14 point its 4.94mm (to get pixel size take point size and multiply by 0.254).
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So that's alright then....
Well, no actually it is not. Although the system was specified pre 1993, the final version was not laid down until much later. Saying that you are complying with older specs doesn't wash.
It's like saying the Lotus 7 was designed in the 1960s and didn't need seatbelts, if you build one TODAY you will very definitely have to put seatbelts in it. Apart from the fact that it is a good idea.
You make no mention of the font sizes in the FDE or FFP. I have a copy of Helvetica and Helvetica bold and the size is not 10 or 14 point. The way it is displayed at NERC is much more like 8 point, and is limited by the resolution of the NERC displays.
There is a serious problem here. NERC management have known about it for AT LEAST A YEAR. Please don't use the excuse that "we complied with (out of date)the specifications".
Thoughout OCT course managers were advised to avoid mentioning the legibility of the fonts for fear of unwelcome criticism. Either time or money was the issue, not the welfare or health of the staff.
I repeat. If you are relying for your defence on the compliance with outdated regulations, should there be an incident relating to this issue, a court of law will not be very sympathetic. You KNEW there was a problem and DID NOTHING ABOUT IT? I can hear the barristers now, can't you?
What happened to the joint approach that the new start at NERC was supposed to bring? Only seems to apply when management want it to it seems. Not much like a company that "encourages all staff to contribute" is it?
Roll on re-nationalisation.
Rgds. .BEX
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: BEXIL ]</p>
Well, no actually it is not. Although the system was specified pre 1993, the final version was not laid down until much later. Saying that you are complying with older specs doesn't wash.
It's like saying the Lotus 7 was designed in the 1960s and didn't need seatbelts, if you build one TODAY you will very definitely have to put seatbelts in it. Apart from the fact that it is a good idea.
You make no mention of the font sizes in the FDE or FFP. I have a copy of Helvetica and Helvetica bold and the size is not 10 or 14 point. The way it is displayed at NERC is much more like 8 point, and is limited by the resolution of the NERC displays.
There is a serious problem here. NERC management have known about it for AT LEAST A YEAR. Please don't use the excuse that "we complied with (out of date)the specifications".
Thoughout OCT course managers were advised to avoid mentioning the legibility of the fonts for fear of unwelcome criticism. Either time or money was the issue, not the welfare or health of the staff.
I repeat. If you are relying for your defence on the compliance with outdated regulations, should there be an incident relating to this issue, a court of law will not be very sympathetic. You KNEW there was a problem and DID NOTHING ABOUT IT? I can hear the barristers now, can't you?
What happened to the joint approach that the new start at NERC was supposed to bring? Only seems to apply when management want it to it seems. Not much like a company that "encourages all staff to contribute" is it?
Roll on re-nationalisation.
Rgds. .BEX
[ 19 February 2002: Message edited by: BEXIL ]</p>
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Take3Call5, well I am interested to. .hear that you feel old standards are good. .enough to deal with the ATC of. .today, but I think I will wait and get. .confirmation from the HSE - after all,. .their report isn't out yet. I assume you. .won't mind making it public when it comes. .since you are confident?
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I'm with dinosaur, The MMI has been redone on several occasions to meet the requirements of those that "represented" ATC.
Now for some techie stuff.
The displays in use are 20" X 20" Sony's (about 28" across). They have a resolution of 2048 by 2048, so they are not the kind of thing you get at home.
I can confirm that the smallest font size on display at NERC is Helvetica 10 point and is rendered onto the screen by some of the most widely used graphics software in the world so its probably right.
Bexil - what will make the characters smaller is the resolution of the display - try it on your computer at home by changing the resolution setting and see what happens.
Now for some techie stuff.
The displays in use are 20" X 20" Sony's (about 28" across). They have a resolution of 2048 by 2048, so they are not the kind of thing you get at home.
I can confirm that the smallest font size on display at NERC is Helvetica 10 point and is rendered onto the screen by some of the most widely used graphics software in the world so its probably right.
Bexil - what will make the characters smaller is the resolution of the display - try it on your computer at home by changing the resolution setting and see what happens.