Concorde – An alternative view.
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Concorde – An alternative view.
I have to admit that as a UK ATCO that has to control Concorde (London Centre) I’m not overly ecstatic about its return.
Fantastic though it may be, it’s a pain to control both outbound and inbound.
Outbound whilst initially it has a low rate (angle) of climb as it accelerates, once the speed builds up, it climbs around 4000 ft/min to it’s initial subsonic cruise around FL 260-280, and needs plenty of warning as it doesn’t like to have to stop off at intermediate levels.
To get to it’s supersonic acceleration point over the Bristol channel, it has to cross through the London TMA inbound flow, effectively going the wrong way down a one way street.
Once given its clearance to climb and accelerate to supersonic speeds it won’t take any vectors, everything that’s in its way has to scatter. Trying to decide what is in its way is not as easy as you might think. London centre doesn’t have ground speed read out on the radar (can you believe that!) so as it starts it acceleration from subsonic to 1500 mph, working out if traffic a 100 miles away crossing its track is going to come close can be tricky. Especially in view that when Conc first started it was unusual to have traffic above FL 370, whereas now FL410 is common place.
Also because the British and French Concordes depart to KJFK at similar times, much brainpower is engaged even whilst the aircraft are on the ground to decide if they both can have the optimum oceanic track. As they cruise so high above the jetstreams they have a fixed route system. We need 15 mins between them at 15 degrees west, (from memory, will re-read procedures before next shift, honest), if we don’t have it, amazingly the Air France Conc takes track “SO” which involves a longer routing.
Out of interest although we clear the aircraft to FL600, it never actually gets there with a commercial load, but cruise climbs its way across the pond. Coming eastbound towards the UK it’s usually passing around FL573 going towards FL590 when it asks for descent.
Inbound to UK it fairly quickly drops to FL 370 and subsonic speeds and for a while it’s fine. The problem then is that it likes to leaves its descent as late as possible (we all know fuel is tight), whilst converging towards a two-way air-route. All westbound traffic on this Air-route between Flight levels 150-350 are potential conflicts, and our normal solution of parallel headings can’t be applied until it hits the Air-route. Trying to think of a safe initial level to descend to isn’t always easy.
Finally, it motors in at around 370 kts indicated, which is fine if you want to overtake traffic, but trying to slow it down is next to impossible.
I would like to say that my heart lifts when I hear Conc getting airborne (it’s very audible even from London Centre about 5 miles from Heathrow, the only aircraft I can hear take-off), the reality is I start scouring the radar for traffic hundreds of miles west of the UK trying to workout which are best re-routed and which I’m likely to miss.
I’m just thankful there are so few of them.
I’d be interested to know how the controllers in New York centre deal with it, are you glad it’s back?
Fantastic though it may be, it’s a pain to control both outbound and inbound.
Outbound whilst initially it has a low rate (angle) of climb as it accelerates, once the speed builds up, it climbs around 4000 ft/min to it’s initial subsonic cruise around FL 260-280, and needs plenty of warning as it doesn’t like to have to stop off at intermediate levels.
To get to it’s supersonic acceleration point over the Bristol channel, it has to cross through the London TMA inbound flow, effectively going the wrong way down a one way street.
Once given its clearance to climb and accelerate to supersonic speeds it won’t take any vectors, everything that’s in its way has to scatter. Trying to decide what is in its way is not as easy as you might think. London centre doesn’t have ground speed read out on the radar (can you believe that!) so as it starts it acceleration from subsonic to 1500 mph, working out if traffic a 100 miles away crossing its track is going to come close can be tricky. Especially in view that when Conc first started it was unusual to have traffic above FL 370, whereas now FL410 is common place.
Also because the British and French Concordes depart to KJFK at similar times, much brainpower is engaged even whilst the aircraft are on the ground to decide if they both can have the optimum oceanic track. As they cruise so high above the jetstreams they have a fixed route system. We need 15 mins between them at 15 degrees west, (from memory, will re-read procedures before next shift, honest), if we don’t have it, amazingly the Air France Conc takes track “SO” which involves a longer routing.
Out of interest although we clear the aircraft to FL600, it never actually gets there with a commercial load, but cruise climbs its way across the pond. Coming eastbound towards the UK it’s usually passing around FL573 going towards FL590 when it asks for descent.
Inbound to UK it fairly quickly drops to FL 370 and subsonic speeds and for a while it’s fine. The problem then is that it likes to leaves its descent as late as possible (we all know fuel is tight), whilst converging towards a two-way air-route. All westbound traffic on this Air-route between Flight levels 150-350 are potential conflicts, and our normal solution of parallel headings can’t be applied until it hits the Air-route. Trying to think of a safe initial level to descend to isn’t always easy.
Finally, it motors in at around 370 kts indicated, which is fine if you want to overtake traffic, but trying to slow it down is next to impossible.
I would like to say that my heart lifts when I hear Conc getting airborne (it’s very audible even from London Centre about 5 miles from Heathrow, the only aircraft I can hear take-off), the reality is I start scouring the radar for traffic hundreds of miles west of the UK trying to workout which are best re-routed and which I’m likely to miss.
I’m just thankful there are so few of them.
I’d be interested to know how the controllers in New York centre deal with it, are you glad it’s back?
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overload,
It doesn't get any easier as it approaches Heathrow. Knowing any significant delay will cause a diversion costing several thousands of pounds. The same potential problem in the event of a go around.
After over a year out of service, ATC is expected to provide the unique handling concorde requires with no practise, training or liason. Some people have become valid in the last year and never worked concorde.
Do you think someone is being over looked here ?
En-route charging is a function of weight and time spent in airspace, does that mean Nats earns less from concorde than a 747 ?
It doesn't get any easier as it approaches Heathrow. Knowing any significant delay will cause a diversion costing several thousands of pounds. The same potential problem in the event of a go around.
After over a year out of service, ATC is expected to provide the unique handling concorde requires with no practise, training or liason. Some people have become valid in the last year and never worked concorde.
Do you think someone is being over looked here ?
En-route charging is a function of weight and time spent in airspace, does that mean Nats earns less from concorde than a 747 ?
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I don't find any real problem with Conc in the approach phase. When it first started it was a pain becuase some genius dreamt up "Concorde Standard Approaches" and we had to fit other traffic around it. However, within a few days the crews were opting for "hand jobs" (ie radar vectored approaches like everyone else). In recent years, apart from occasional fuel problems if we're holding, it has behaved much like everyone else and will happily come back to 210kts downwind and 170kts on final.... although most of us like to whack it around faster than that!!
I agree that some recently validated controllers won't have worked Concorde, but neither will many of them have seen 23 in use or certain other less usual procedures. One just has to rely on one's experience to cope.
I agree that some recently validated controllers won't have worked Concorde, but neither will many of them have seen 23 in use or certain other less usual procedures. One just has to rely on one's experience to cope.
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Well, in all my years reading PPRUNE, I've not read a more pathetic entry than that filed by Overload.. What a precious thing he/she is, a super duper air traffic controller, migh what a clever thing you are.. How can you seriously say that 1 (that's ONE) aeroplane can cause that much of a problem? What's wrong with FL260 w/bound "against the e'bound flow"..? Something wrong with the North side of UG1? And as for the problems anticipating the rate of climb.. Is it really that difficult getting the odd a/c out of the way? Marvellous things headings, you should try using them... And so what if the a/c descends at high speed? What's the problem? If it's catching up another a/c you can use vectors.. (remember them?)
Honestly, if you can't cope with ONE a/c, you really are in the wrong job. Perhaps you should offer your services to the canteen, assuming, of course, that you feel you can cope with the breakfast rush..
Honestly, if you can't cope with ONE a/c, you really are in the wrong job. Perhaps you should offer your services to the canteen, assuming, of course, that you feel you can cope with the breakfast rush..
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I agree with ock1f, overload must be a very delicate creature who can`t cope with the strange and unusual! It`s what you`re paid to do, plan and anticipate and after all it`s not like it just appears without warning and nobody has a clue what to do with it! I think it`s fantastic to see this fine old lady back in the skies again and we should all feel proud to be a part of this quite unique operation!
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Damn you blokes Ock and Bewli.....just when I was in the middle of writing how disgusted I am reading this bunch of dribble. The Concorde is one of the most beautiful and exciting aircraft around. It is a symbol that Europe, yes the Poms too, can be proud of and all should be proud as new parents to see her flying again.
I cannot believe that any person connected to aviation in a professional manner would even consider writing something like this. As a fellow ATC I am embarassed and apologise to anybody who thinks this is any ATC that I know thinks.
How many Concorde flights do you see a day? What is it 1 BA & 1 AF? each way? Ever worked Airforce 1?
And I also cant believe you would consider letting this goose serve you food, I mean what if the carrot got in the way of the potato?
This must be a joke....or is this how all you blokes in LATCC think? - Tell me its not so, I was just starting to like you lot.
OK so LIKE is a strong word....lets try...ummm......TOLERATE !
Lets all chip in buy pprune a spell checker...!
[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: TrafficTraffic ]
I cannot believe that any person connected to aviation in a professional manner would even consider writing something like this. As a fellow ATC I am embarassed and apologise to anybody who thinks this is any ATC that I know thinks.
How many Concorde flights do you see a day? What is it 1 BA & 1 AF? each way? Ever worked Airforce 1?
And I also cant believe you would consider letting this goose serve you food, I mean what if the carrot got in the way of the potato?
This must be a joke....or is this how all you blokes in LATCC think? - Tell me its not so, I was just starting to like you lot.
OK so LIKE is a strong word....lets try...ummm......TOLERATE !
Lets all chip in buy pprune a spell checker...!
[ 09 November 2001: Message edited by: TrafficTraffic ]
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Note - Zip referred to "LATCC" whereas the guy who started this thread kept calling it "London Centre". Don't think I've heard a civil ATCO use that name previously.... makes mwe wonder..???
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Overload - what colour is the sun on your planet? I think you probably got overloaded getting out of bed. Why don't you empty your nappy someplace else? There are dozens of flights with individual characteristics which make them a pain in the butt - isn't that 1)what we're paid for 2)what makes the job challenging & enjoyable? If you want an easy ride go push some paperclips. SN 
I think that it is inappropriate for any of you to criticise Overload until you have stood in his shoes!
I don't see many critical posts coming from people who control supersonic traffic. While it is excellet to see the old bird flying again, it does increase workload disproportionately. I have not worked the West End at LATCC, but much respect to those of you who do at 11:00 each morning!
I don't see many critical posts coming from people who control supersonic traffic. While it is excellet to see the old bird flying again, it does increase workload disproportionately. I have not worked the West End at LATCC, but much respect to those of you who do at 11:00 each morning!
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Frankly Dan Dare I would go no where near Overload`s shoes.....but then I know where they have been.
On a slightly different matter I wonder if that friend of all LATCC ATCO`s, thats you Traffic Traffic, can tell us the common link:
21-15
20-12.
On a slightly different matter I wonder if that friend of all LATCC ATCO`s, thats you Traffic Traffic, can tell us the common link:
21-15
20-12.
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On a slightly different matter I wonder if that friend of all LATCC ATCO`s, thats you Traffic Traffic, can tell us the common link:
21-15
20-12.
21-15
20-12.
Hdg 021 & 015 or 020 & 012????
OK OK that hurts, I suppose you are willing to forget about the Lions tour downunder....Oh and I see we are forgetting about the Ashes cricket this summer too....let me see have we missed anything else..?
TT
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Yeah Traffic Traffic, you forgot the Oz Rugby Union and League results at the weekend. As ATCOs are supposed to have good short term memory retention, are you sure you remember where you left your sweeping brush after your last cleaning duty ??
Throws pebble into big pool, followed by boulder .... the NATS Forum is coming soon
Throws pebble into big pool, followed by boulder .... the NATS Forum is coming soon
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Was out for a walk this afternoon and ended up at a pond with about 200 wee ducks swimming around..........suddenly a swan appeared on downwind...turned base and made a perfect (for a swan !) landing ....splash..........splash...splash. in clear water without coming even close to any of the ducks.Thought of you guys and this thread !!!!!!! Outstanding work guys.
PS.. didn't have the Tower freqs for this pond so couldn't anorak it. Will try again tomorow !!!!....
PS.. didn't have the Tower freqs for this pond so couldn't anorak it. Will try again tomorow !!!!....
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Ahh...Mr RADAR Sir...I think they were the Rugby Scores! But I must admit I was watching the cricket! Too much time moderating perhaps?
Thanks for asking about my broom, It is big and green and cleans up the mess just across the channel.
I'll see you in there
Oh yeah...BTW Mr RADAR Sir...you shouldnt really hijack threads..somebody was complaining about the flagship of commercial aviation.
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: TrafficTraffic ]
Thanks for asking about my broom, It is big and green and cleans up the mess just across the channel.
.... the NATS Forum is coming soon
Oh yeah...BTW Mr RADAR Sir...you shouldnt really hijack threads..somebody was complaining about the flagship of commercial aviation.
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: TrafficTraffic ]
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Nice to see another mature, reasoned, debate amongst aviation professionals, ever sympathetic to one of their colleagues problems.
Ock1f
Is it really necessary to sink to that level of personal abuse in order to disagree with an opinion?
I Concede that your comments on it’s outbound sub-sonic periods are valid, but notice that you didn’t address the trickier period of when it starts it’s acceleration. There are now 9 upper air routes crossing its acceleration flight path in UK airspace, 6 at Merly, the other 3 between Merly and Shannon’s airspace. Crossing traffic either requires wholesale re-routing to go behind the acceleration point, or fairly savage level changes (say 7000 feet lower for traffic at FL390 ) plus vectoring west of Merly to achieve a safe crossover. Another option is heroic vectoring well west (say 50 miles or more west of Merly) for traffic not wishing to descend, at levels between 320-370. Flights routing Lands End to Dublin at FL390 for example, cross the acceleration track about 90 miles west of it’s start and need a sharp descent to stay below Concorde, no problem for traffic inbound Dublin, but not so popular with Icelandic traffic going home from Spain, or even UK inbound traffic going to Glasgow. London TMA outbounds going through Merly need to stay down at FL250 in order to stay below it at the acceleration point. None of this is exact as there are so many variables such as upper winds, Concorde’s performance (“round the bay” charter flights perform better than transatlantics), accessing it’s forward motion whist it’s accelerating, which is why I find it a difficult aircraft to manage.
The airspace west of Cardiff used to be relatively empty when Concorde first started, but now on summers Weekend with a southerly Oceanic track structure, it is mighty busy.
Incidentally, the re-routes, level changes, and vectoring the other aircraft suffer, is to facilitate an aircraft that has the same priority as the rest of the aircraft flying around.
I noticed that no tips or advice were offered on the other problem of picking safe levels for it’s dirty dive from FL370 whilst on a converging track towards Malby.
TT
Yes I have worked Airforce 1, don’t recall it going supersonic though, just seemed to cruise along with all the other traffic, what was your point?
Heathrow D
No need to smell a rat.
As this is an international forum I thought “London Centre” would mean more to our overseas colleagues that Latcc or even that well-known council estate, West Drayton.
Staff Number
Sticking smilies on the end of statements like “you probably got overloaded getting out of bed. Why don't you empty your nappy someplace else?” doesn’t alter the tone of the abuse.
For those of you tuning in, who have no real idea from these posts whether or not Concorde is a problem, I can assure that there are many normal, moderate and well balanced individuals who agree with me, and I Concur there are those who don’t. Unfortunately you don’t find that many “normal, moderate and well balanced individuals” posting on Prune, why lay yourself open to wholesale abuse just for expressing an opinion?
You will note that I only mention the British Concorde, as the French Concorde is a delight to work. By the time it hits UK airspace it is well into it’s climb and soars above almost all the traffic, just needing to watch a couple of well known hot spots.
My thanks to the few of you that offered some support, or at least were prepared to listen to the debate, not ever having been directly involved in it operationally, and those that managed to disagree without descending into a slagging match.
I’m not anti Concorde, I’ve done 30 years in ATC, and am a committed aviation person. I could have left to get a flying job (hold an ATPL, Instrument rating, 6000 flying, about half turbine), but stayed with ATC because I enjoy the job, and have no desire to see Concorde grounded. But as I stated, I find it a difficult aircraft to deal with, the title of the post being “Concorde- An alternative view”, not the only view.
If this is the type of debate everyone want’s in Pprune, so be it, but you won’t catch me posting here again,
It’s over to the literary lager louts.
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: overload ]
Ock1f
Is it really necessary to sink to that level of personal abuse in order to disagree with an opinion?
I Concede that your comments on it’s outbound sub-sonic periods are valid, but notice that you didn’t address the trickier period of when it starts it’s acceleration. There are now 9 upper air routes crossing its acceleration flight path in UK airspace, 6 at Merly, the other 3 between Merly and Shannon’s airspace. Crossing traffic either requires wholesale re-routing to go behind the acceleration point, or fairly savage level changes (say 7000 feet lower for traffic at FL390 ) plus vectoring west of Merly to achieve a safe crossover. Another option is heroic vectoring well west (say 50 miles or more west of Merly) for traffic not wishing to descend, at levels between 320-370. Flights routing Lands End to Dublin at FL390 for example, cross the acceleration track about 90 miles west of it’s start and need a sharp descent to stay below Concorde, no problem for traffic inbound Dublin, but not so popular with Icelandic traffic going home from Spain, or even UK inbound traffic going to Glasgow. London TMA outbounds going through Merly need to stay down at FL250 in order to stay below it at the acceleration point. None of this is exact as there are so many variables such as upper winds, Concorde’s performance (“round the bay” charter flights perform better than transatlantics), accessing it’s forward motion whist it’s accelerating, which is why I find it a difficult aircraft to manage.
The airspace west of Cardiff used to be relatively empty when Concorde first started, but now on summers Weekend with a southerly Oceanic track structure, it is mighty busy.
Incidentally, the re-routes, level changes, and vectoring the other aircraft suffer, is to facilitate an aircraft that has the same priority as the rest of the aircraft flying around.
I noticed that no tips or advice were offered on the other problem of picking safe levels for it’s dirty dive from FL370 whilst on a converging track towards Malby.
TT
Yes I have worked Airforce 1, don’t recall it going supersonic though, just seemed to cruise along with all the other traffic, what was your point?
Heathrow D
No need to smell a rat.
As this is an international forum I thought “London Centre” would mean more to our overseas colleagues that Latcc or even that well-known council estate, West Drayton.
Staff Number
Sticking smilies on the end of statements like “you probably got overloaded getting out of bed. Why don't you empty your nappy someplace else?” doesn’t alter the tone of the abuse.
For those of you tuning in, who have no real idea from these posts whether or not Concorde is a problem, I can assure that there are many normal, moderate and well balanced individuals who agree with me, and I Concur there are those who don’t. Unfortunately you don’t find that many “normal, moderate and well balanced individuals” posting on Prune, why lay yourself open to wholesale abuse just for expressing an opinion?
You will note that I only mention the British Concorde, as the French Concorde is a delight to work. By the time it hits UK airspace it is well into it’s climb and soars above almost all the traffic, just needing to watch a couple of well known hot spots.
My thanks to the few of you that offered some support, or at least were prepared to listen to the debate, not ever having been directly involved in it operationally, and those that managed to disagree without descending into a slagging match.
I’m not anti Concorde, I’ve done 30 years in ATC, and am a committed aviation person. I could have left to get a flying job (hold an ATPL, Instrument rating, 6000 flying, about half turbine), but stayed with ATC because I enjoy the job, and have no desire to see Concorde grounded. But as I stated, I find it a difficult aircraft to deal with, the title of the post being “Concorde- An alternative view”, not the only view.
If this is the type of debate everyone want’s in Pprune, so be it, but you won’t catch me posting here again,
It’s over to the literary lager louts.
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: overload ]