MAN - LPL ATC issue
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MAN - LPL ATC issue
This morning at Man ryanair 737 blocked the runway.I was told to hold given an EAT ten mins beyond my reserve fuel limit but told to sit tight as a runway change and/or the a/c being removed from the runway should bring the EAT forward significantly.Called to remind ATC of our need to divert if no onward clearance after the forth time around the hold.Still positive noises coming from ATC (all of which is fair enough ,I got the LPL weather but apart from that allowed myself to be optimstic about my chances of getting into Manch).
As LPL were operating on 09 and I considered delays getting in possible I diverted at a time when I had JUST enough to get me to BPL ,without going into my final reserve (tea and biscuits interview).I was then astonished to hear the Manch controller say words to the effect that Lpl advised(well after the morning rush and before any a/c other a/c had diverted)their apron might not be able to take my little 145.
Our workload went vertical as the preparations for a new airfield,performance, briefing etc. kicked in.I had to ask the Manch controller to do what he could to get me into Lpl.This he did,and on handover to Lpl I was asked was I declaring a fuel emergency.
When I got there I saw two a/c on the apron an Easyjet 737 and a Bandit.
Can someone tell me what was going on?Is there a political and/or comms problem between these two units.On reflection maybe I should have called Lpl on box two,Manch were obviously under a lot of pressure at the time.
As LPL were operating on 09 and I considered delays getting in possible I diverted at a time when I had JUST enough to get me to BPL ,without going into my final reserve (tea and biscuits interview).I was then astonished to hear the Manch controller say words to the effect that Lpl advised(well after the morning rush and before any a/c other a/c had diverted)their apron might not be able to take my little 145.
Our workload went vertical as the preparations for a new airfield,performance, briefing etc. kicked in.I had to ask the Manch controller to do what he could to get me into Lpl.This he did,and on handover to Lpl I was asked was I declaring a fuel emergency.
When I got there I saw two a/c on the apron an Easyjet 737 and a Bandit.
Can someone tell me what was going on?Is there a political and/or comms problem between these two units.On reflection maybe I should have called Lpl on box two,Manch were obviously under a lot of pressure at the time.
Hello Alosaurus.
As far as the TWR & Approach ATCOs at Manchester are concerned there certainly isn't any anomisity between ourselves and Liverpool. I have had this type of message passed to me for onward transmission before now but I'm sure it's not down to the ATC people at Liverpool more a case of their airfield management being over cautious. Hopefully someone from Liverpool ATC will come on line and give you the inside track. Sorry we lost you but as I remember we did make a gap later to get you home later.Boy was I glad to go home after this morning! (am now drinking a large Gin & Tonic).
As far as the TWR & Approach ATCOs at Manchester are concerned there certainly isn't any anomisity between ourselves and Liverpool. I have had this type of message passed to me for onward transmission before now but I'm sure it's not down to the ATC people at Liverpool more a case of their airfield management being over cautious. Hopefully someone from Liverpool ATC will come on line and give you the inside track. Sorry we lost you but as I remember we did make a gap later to get you home later.Boy was I glad to go home after this morning! (am now drinking a large Gin & Tonic).
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Responsibilty for accepting/declining aircraft usually rests with the aerodrome authority rather than ATC. Is it possible that the Liverpool airport operator was keen to ensure that ramp space was not taken by your little 145 when it could be used for an Airbus/Boeing?
One might give them the benefit of the doubt about such a commercial gamble but, as alosaurus points out, it does cause much unecessary work both on the flightdeck and in the control room. Kind of makes you wonder what the the point is in nominating an alternate on the FPL!!
One might give them the benefit of the doubt about such a commercial gamble but, as alosaurus points out, it does cause much unecessary work both on the flightdeck and in the control room. Kind of makes you wonder what the the point is in nominating an alternate on the FPL!!
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I was the co-ordinator on the west sector when this occurred,their initial response was actually "don't know if we have room on the apron I'll call you back!!!" and I can tell you I was surprised as you were by this response, while my Radar man was telling you all this I was on the phone again, saying to Liverpool,that if they didn't allow you to land you would possibly declare a (fuel) emergency,(maybe this is why they asked you if you were declaring an emergency on 1st contact), that seemed to focus their minds somewhat! The reply was "turn the A/c onto hdg 220 and descend too 2,500 ft!" Suddenly their apron had found room for your a/c!! Why they behaved like this I can't even begin to guess.(see above for various posibilities) Usually this is reserved for when we are foggy and they have accepted quite a few 737's
But all's well that ends well as they say.
If you ever want to see how things operate in the op's room particularly between us and EGGP drop me a line it can be arranged.
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: MACC 29 all the time!!!! ]
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: MACC 29 all the time!!!! ]
But all's well that ends well as they say.
If you ever want to see how things operate in the op's room particularly between us and EGGP drop me a line it can be arranged.
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: MACC 29 all the time!!!! ]
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: MACC 29 all the time!!!! ]
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From an EGGP perspective:
On first notification of a divert we ATCOs can accept aircraft upto a certain size (B757) without reference to Airfield Ops. However for the last few days the apron has been heavily restricted due to painting of new stand markings, taxi-lanes etc. At times over half the apron has been unavailable.
This was why there was some delay in accepting this particular divert as the APP ATCO quite rightly needed to check that divs would be acceptable due to the potential lack of space on the apron. Incidentally the apron was fully opened mid afternoon and we took a couple of 757s as divs and could easily have taken more.
Just a couple of points:
alosaurus: Yes, you should have called EGGP on box 2 as soon as you realised your EAT was beyond your reserve; I would recommend any crew in the same situation does the same. In the afternoon 6 crews holding gave us between 30 and 45 minutes notice on their possible intention to divert, we only got 2 of them in the end but we were able to prepare in good time. No, there are no political or comms problems between us and Manch, at least not on the shop floor.
MACC 29 all the time!! : "don't know if we have room on the apron I'll call you back" . Why should this surprise you so much bearing in mind what I have stated earlier?
....."I was on the phone again, saying to Liverpool, that if they didn't allow you to land you would possibly declare a (fuel) emergency"...... The aircraft was in your hold for your airfield. If he is not accepted by his alternate for whatever reason and declares an emergency then it's your responsibilty to get him in to your airfield ASAP. Your above comment implies it would be Liverpools fault if he had to declare an emergency - NOT SO.......... It's the pilots fault for leaving it to the last minute and putting you under extra pressure. We will take any aircraft with a fuel shortage without question, hence the immediate heading and level you received.
The aircraft was probably accepted in the belief he was about to declare an emergency, rather than in response to your posturing.
"why they behaved like this I can't even begin to guess" Well now you know and perhaps in the future you might consider opening your eyes a bit wider to get a bigger picture before sticking the boot in.............
MACC 29 all the time, why don't YOU come and see things over here from our perspective? Lord knows if you did I might even buy you a drink........!!
[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: squibbler ]
On first notification of a divert we ATCOs can accept aircraft upto a certain size (B757) without reference to Airfield Ops. However for the last few days the apron has been heavily restricted due to painting of new stand markings, taxi-lanes etc. At times over half the apron has been unavailable.
This was why there was some delay in accepting this particular divert as the APP ATCO quite rightly needed to check that divs would be acceptable due to the potential lack of space on the apron. Incidentally the apron was fully opened mid afternoon and we took a couple of 757s as divs and could easily have taken more.
Just a couple of points:
alosaurus: Yes, you should have called EGGP on box 2 as soon as you realised your EAT was beyond your reserve; I would recommend any crew in the same situation does the same. In the afternoon 6 crews holding gave us between 30 and 45 minutes notice on their possible intention to divert, we only got 2 of them in the end but we were able to prepare in good time. No, there are no political or comms problems between us and Manch, at least not on the shop floor.
MACC 29 all the time!! : "don't know if we have room on the apron I'll call you back" . Why should this surprise you so much bearing in mind what I have stated earlier?
....."I was on the phone again, saying to Liverpool, that if they didn't allow you to land you would possibly declare a (fuel) emergency"...... The aircraft was in your hold for your airfield. If he is not accepted by his alternate for whatever reason and declares an emergency then it's your responsibilty to get him in to your airfield ASAP. Your above comment implies it would be Liverpools fault if he had to declare an emergency - NOT SO.......... It's the pilots fault for leaving it to the last minute and putting you under extra pressure. We will take any aircraft with a fuel shortage without question, hence the immediate heading and level you received.
The aircraft was probably accepted in the belief he was about to declare an emergency, rather than in response to your posturing.
"why they behaved like this I can't even begin to guess" Well now you know and perhaps in the future you might consider opening your eyes a bit wider to get a bigger picture before sticking the boot in.............
MACC 29 all the time, why don't YOU come and see things over here from our perspective? Lord knows if you did I might even buy you a drink........!!
[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: squibbler ]
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spekesoftly.
If you are refering to the lack of a response from Macc29 then I suggest that you look at the time of his posting yesterday - it was late.
It might just be that the man is on a late shift and doesn't have access to a PC?
At the end of the day we all need patience with each other and the ability to understand what has been happening at both ends. This is said in hindsight, when the pressure is on then things can be said in haste.
I still cann't understand why the 737 was stuck there for so long. Rumour has it that FR would not permit anyone except their own engineers to do the job. They also say that the airprot authority wanted to move the aircraft using airbags, but again FR refused. Another was that replacement, or loan, wheels were offered to FR but that FR thought the cost too high. And so they go on. Does anyone know, will anyone know, the real truth?
Scottie Dog
If you are refering to the lack of a response from Macc29 then I suggest that you look at the time of his posting yesterday - it was late.
It might just be that the man is on a late shift and doesn't have access to a PC?
At the end of the day we all need patience with each other and the ability to understand what has been happening at both ends. This is said in hindsight, when the pressure is on then things can be said in haste.
I still cann't understand why the 737 was stuck there for so long. Rumour has it that FR would not permit anyone except their own engineers to do the job. They also say that the airprot authority wanted to move the aircraft using airbags, but again FR refused. Another was that replacement, or loan, wheels were offered to FR but that FR thought the cost too high. And so they go on. Does anyone know, will anyone know, the real truth?
Scottie Dog
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SN and Lpl ATC,thanks for making the gap for us to get back to Man when it was still busy-as a result four of our pax just made their onward connections to the USA.
MAC 29,I'll take you up on your offer of a tower visit,if you can fit me in,next time I have an airport standby.Could you give me a phone no?
Squibbler,firstly I accept my part in this could have been played better;my reason for posting here was to see what lessons could be learned without going into print.I did my training at Lpl,and operated out of there for a year flying a J41 to BHD.The standard of controlling was of the highest order;I have only recently fully appreciated this as a result of visiting airfields at the opposite end of the spectrum (such as Nice).
From my point of view next time I am considering a diversion I will use box two in this slightly non standard(but admittedly sensible, and evidently accaptable)way.
In addition I will not be so optimistic when considering any diversion in future.Bear in mind however that my optimism was based on the formal information at my disposal.
-I don't recall seeing anything in the NOTAMS which suggested that LPL's capacity could be affected by work on the apron.
-As I said I took the LPL ATIS early in the hold,nothing was mentioned about apron activity.That day the only other airfield I visited which had taxyways closed had details at the end of the ATIS.
-I have flown over LPL countless times mid morning and seen that,like most other UK airports,it has dispatched most of its resident a/c.
I wanted to raise the awareness of the implications of what the guy talking to MAC29 had said.It takes five mins to brief a new airfield,set up the aids,put in new speeds,check performance etc.If this process is started for a second alternate and then reversed back to the first alternate things can get quite messy.Maybe he could have reasoned that even if only a third of your big new apron were available he could have accepted a 145.SN said he has had this type of message passed before-In the case of our Warsaw to Man flights we operate at the extreme end of the aircrafts range Lpl is the only destination alternate within range.All I ask is that these "hang on we will see if we can fit you in comments" are fully considered.
MAC 29,I'll take you up on your offer of a tower visit,if you can fit me in,next time I have an airport standby.Could you give me a phone no?
Squibbler,firstly I accept my part in this could have been played better;my reason for posting here was to see what lessons could be learned without going into print.I did my training at Lpl,and operated out of there for a year flying a J41 to BHD.The standard of controlling was of the highest order;I have only recently fully appreciated this as a result of visiting airfields at the opposite end of the spectrum (such as Nice).
From my point of view next time I am considering a diversion I will use box two in this slightly non standard(but admittedly sensible, and evidently accaptable)way.
In addition I will not be so optimistic when considering any diversion in future.Bear in mind however that my optimism was based on the formal information at my disposal.
-I don't recall seeing anything in the NOTAMS which suggested that LPL's capacity could be affected by work on the apron.
-As I said I took the LPL ATIS early in the hold,nothing was mentioned about apron activity.That day the only other airfield I visited which had taxyways closed had details at the end of the ATIS.
-I have flown over LPL countless times mid morning and seen that,like most other UK airports,it has dispatched most of its resident a/c.
I wanted to raise the awareness of the implications of what the guy talking to MAC29 had said.It takes five mins to brief a new airfield,set up the aids,put in new speeds,check performance etc.If this process is started for a second alternate and then reversed back to the first alternate things can get quite messy.Maybe he could have reasoned that even if only a third of your big new apron were available he could have accepted a 145.SN said he has had this type of message passed before-In the case of our Warsaw to Man flights we operate at the extreme end of the aircrafts range Lpl is the only destination alternate within range.All I ask is that these "hang on we will see if we can fit you in comments" are fully considered.
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Alosaurus, I agree with you in not wanting to drag this out in print so I'll try and be brief.
There were NOTAMS issued regarding the apron re-marking however these did not declare any reduced capacity. Obviously the Ops dept. did not take into account the possibility of diversions when issuing the NOTAMS and perhaps this is something we at ATC can bring to their attention for the future.
Because of this I feel the APR controller was absolutely right to check with Ops first, probably to try and avoid any potential red faces. It would have taken probably 2 minutes or less for an answer so I think a modicum of over reaction from the MACC co-ordinator did not help matters.
If we had been told on first contact from Manch that you were low on fuel we would have accepted you immediately without question and told Ops. you were coming whether they liked it or not!!
As regards the ATIS, well unfortunately we are not able to provide information such as apron restrictions etc because our current equipment is the "L" version as opposed to the "Ghia". When we move to our new Tower however (Nov/Dec'ish), we will have all new singing and dancing equipment and provide you with an improved service. (SSR too, thank God..........)
All in all, the more notice you give us the quicker the wheels are oiled. Even just a quick call on box 2 in advance to let us know that you might be diverting helps us greatly.
Lets just put it down to experience and move on..........
Squibs
PS. Appreciate the comments regarding the ATC standards here.....(cheque's in the post
)
There were NOTAMS issued regarding the apron re-marking however these did not declare any reduced capacity. Obviously the Ops dept. did not take into account the possibility of diversions when issuing the NOTAMS and perhaps this is something we at ATC can bring to their attention for the future.
Because of this I feel the APR controller was absolutely right to check with Ops first, probably to try and avoid any potential red faces. It would have taken probably 2 minutes or less for an answer so I think a modicum of over reaction from the MACC co-ordinator did not help matters.
If we had been told on first contact from Manch that you were low on fuel we would have accepted you immediately without question and told Ops. you were coming whether they liked it or not!!
As regards the ATIS, well unfortunately we are not able to provide information such as apron restrictions etc because our current equipment is the "L" version as opposed to the "Ghia". When we move to our new Tower however (Nov/Dec'ish), we will have all new singing and dancing equipment and provide you with an improved service. (SSR too, thank God..........)
All in all, the more notice you give us the quicker the wheels are oiled. Even just a quick call on box 2 in advance to let us know that you might be diverting helps us greatly.
Lets just put it down to experience and move on..........
Squibs
PS. Appreciate the comments regarding the ATC standards here.....(cheque's in the post
)
Alosaurus.
Re your ATC visit request. I know it's a bit late but if you're about this afternoon,(Friday 17th), The watch that was on during the time you returned to Manchester is on the Afternoon shift. If that's a no go B watch is next on the Mornings of 24/25th August. We'd be glad to see you.
Re your ATC visit request. I know it's a bit late but if you're about this afternoon,(Friday 17th), The watch that was on during the time you returned to Manchester is on the Afternoon shift. If that's a no go B watch is next on the Mornings of 24/25th August. We'd be glad to see you.
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Hi squibbler!!
Don't want to get into petty point scoring here like you seem to do.
I have visited EGGP on several occasions to see how you operate....can I claim my drink now....(You ever been over here?)
PS I'm not psychic!! How was I to know what was going on at your airfield? I only telled it how I saw (Heard) can only pass on information I am given.
All i knew at the time was I had an aircraft with a potentially critical fuel situation that needed to land. I was not having a go at you or anyone else. I was just trying to explain to alasorous( Sorry I know thats spelt wrong!!) what had transpired at the time to help him understand what had gone on!!
PS as someone has stated I do have a job todo can't spend allday on here!Give me time to reply will ya!
Sorry if I offended that was not my intention (I know, I know before anyone takes the P*** not like me to apologise is it!!!) just trying to help our airborne friends out with an explanation of what happened
Don't want to get into petty point scoring here like you seem to do.
I have visited EGGP on several occasions to see how you operate....can I claim my drink now....(You ever been over here?)
PS I'm not psychic!! How was I to know what was going on at your airfield? I only telled it how I saw (Heard) can only pass on information I am given.
All i knew at the time was I had an aircraft with a potentially critical fuel situation that needed to land. I was not having a go at you or anyone else. I was just trying to explain to alasorous( Sorry I know thats spelt wrong!!) what had transpired at the time to help him understand what had gone on!!
PS as someone has stated I do have a job todo can't spend allday on here!Give me time to reply will ya!
Sorry if I offended that was not my intention (I know, I know before anyone takes the P*** not like me to apologise is it!!!) just trying to help our airborne friends out with an explanation of what happened
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Morning, MACC 29 all the time.
Final word!!
I was not trying to score points so don't take it personally. I just felt your post was a little "high minded" and you needed bringing down a peg or two!!
Glad to hear you've been here before but I'm afraid beers cannot be bought retrospectively!! Yes I have been over there several times, most recently when I took part in the simulator trials for the new LPL procedures. If I come over again would you buy me a pint?
Apologies accepted, now let's close this bloody thread!!!!
After a long and tedious night shift I am off to bed....
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............
Squibbler :o
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: squibbler ]
Final word!!
I was not trying to score points so don't take it personally. I just felt your post was a little "high minded" and you needed bringing down a peg or two!!
Glad to hear you've been here before but I'm afraid beers cannot be bought retrospectively!! Yes I have been over there several times, most recently when I took part in the simulator trials for the new LPL procedures. If I come over again would you buy me a pint?
Apologies accepted, now let's close this bloody thread!!!!
After a long and tedious night shift I am off to bed....
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............
Squibbler :o
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: squibbler ]
