What next after HON ?
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What next after HON ?
Hi there,
I wonder if I could make a plea to all those excellent lads and lasses at BHX ATC ?
Picture the scenario:screaming down at 320kts to make a reasonable height at HON and onto the 33ILS,stacks of airbrake,bit tight this.
Only to get within a couple of miles of HON and be assigned a HDG after HON,(aha the truth dawns) airbrake in, and now low with the power on burning fuel.
I wonder if BHX ATC could let us know earlier if this is the intention,as we are not mind readers !
This is not a dig at BHX as I find the controllers to be some of the best in Europe,but please help us to help you !!
I wonder if I could make a plea to all those excellent lads and lasses at BHX ATC ?
Picture the scenario:screaming down at 320kts to make a reasonable height at HON and onto the 33ILS,stacks of airbrake,bit tight this.
Only to get within a couple of miles of HON and be assigned a HDG after HON,(aha the truth dawns) airbrake in, and now low with the power on burning fuel.
I wonder if BHX ATC could let us know earlier if this is the intention,as we are not mind readers !
This is not a dig at BHX as I find the controllers to be some of the best in Europe,but please help us to help you !!
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Why don't you just ask? If you need information even earlier the airway sector controller will have a good idea, he/she can certainly find out using direct phone lines. [workload permitting]
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Very true, you could just ask, but to be honest, the midlands controller will only really have a clue if the ones ahead are holding (so presumably you will too). The workings of Brum are a bit of a mystery to us, as we often see you as the only plane in the sky only to watch you vanish off towards Grove! And yes we could phone BB and ask, but then again we could transfer you and watch, which is nearly always the easier (and lazier) option.
At least if you get down nice and early there's always the option of a straight in! And by the way, I know it's not a very good profile but we could also do with you down around FL80 well before HON when BB are on 15. Makes the whole process of getting you transferred to Brum so much easier and quicker. You never know, if you're down nice and low you might even go downwind left...
At least if you get down nice and early there's always the option of a straight in! And by the way, I know it's not a very good profile but we could also do with you down around FL80 well before HON when BB are on 15. Makes the whole process of getting you transferred to Brum so much easier and quicker. You never know, if you're down nice and low you might even go downwind left...
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Don't forget too that sometimes a plan goes to hell in a handbasket and plan B or C comes up, or sometimes if they were to take the next person off the stack and then let you go in the stack, the position of the next aircraft in the stack will waste a lot of airspace and a slot. So with you in a lucky and perfect position, you are now allowed to fill that hole and not sit in the stack... Many reasons for the first plan not to be adhered too, but if it were easy, anyone could do it <G>...
regards
Scott
Don't forget too that sometimes a plan goes to hell in a handbasket and plan B or C comes up, or sometimes if they were to take the next person off the stack and then let you go in the stack, the position of the next aircraft in the stack will waste a lot of airspace and a slot. So with you in a lucky and perfect position, you are now allowed to fill that hole and not sit in the stack... Many reasons for the first plan not to be adhered too, but if it were easy, anyone could do it <G>...
regards
Scott
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A couple of points from the original post. "Screaming down at 320 kts"? A novel suggestion I know, but how about complying with the SLP (250 kts 12 D HON)?.
"A couple of miles to go to HON and we're given a heading to leave." Firstly, you're talking about the standard procedure for arrivals from the south. If you get a straight in, count yourself fortunate. Brum cannot descend inbound traffic from FL 80 if there are outbound aircraft below which have been transferred to TC unless coordination to the contrary has been effected.
Additionally, with the rise in Coventry traffic, any pending outbound from 23 will inhibit the possibility of a straight in to 33.
Also, more often than not, if you are to be given a heading from HON you will still be at FL 80 which I would have thought might give you a clue to the situation if you're still up that high a couple of miles from the beacon.
Having said that, I agree that it would be good practice for us to tell you if a straight in is on the cards or not, and I personally try to do this whenever possible. However it is frequently the case that we can only make the decision at a fairly late stage, after we've seen whether TC are going to climb outbound traffic through the inbound, or whether the Coventry outbound is likely to get in the way.
In summary, plan to get a heading from HON; anything else is a bonus.
P.S. the faster you are arriving at the facility, the more difficult it is sometimes to fit you in to the pattern for a straight in in any case!
"A couple of miles to go to HON and we're given a heading to leave." Firstly, you're talking about the standard procedure for arrivals from the south. If you get a straight in, count yourself fortunate. Brum cannot descend inbound traffic from FL 80 if there are outbound aircraft below which have been transferred to TC unless coordination to the contrary has been effected.
Additionally, with the rise in Coventry traffic, any pending outbound from 23 will inhibit the possibility of a straight in to 33.
Also, more often than not, if you are to be given a heading from HON you will still be at FL 80 which I would have thought might give you a clue to the situation if you're still up that high a couple of miles from the beacon.
Having said that, I agree that it would be good practice for us to tell you if a straight in is on the cards or not, and I personally try to do this whenever possible. However it is frequently the case that we can only make the decision at a fairly late stage, after we've seen whether TC are going to climb outbound traffic through the inbound, or whether the Coventry outbound is likely to get in the way.
In summary, plan to get a heading from HON; anything else is a bonus.
P.S. the faster you are arriving at the facility, the more difficult it is sometimes to fit you in to the pattern for a straight in in any case!
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What Next afer HON?
Sorry to hijack the thread but just came over all sentimental thinking of BHX App in the mid-seventies... ATCOs Roger B*** and Joe N*** watching Match of the Day at 22.30 on a quiet Saturday...and no reply on 120.5! Those were the days...and they'll never come back. IMHO BHX ATC provided outstandingly professional service throughout my 30 year innings. Bless them all! bm
Did his VFR plan to the Scillies, silly sod apparently had a "mishap" at St Marys 
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Hi folks,
thanks for the replies,I will not assume a straightin is available in future and will not break my arse to get down.
As for the SLP,of course I was assuming it was a 'no speed 'situation.
When we get transferred to London on 130.92 we always get a vector towards leicester followed by direct HON,and as a rule we are left at certain levels for too long (as the VNAV pointer disappears off the bottom of the scale)
Now we descend at 280kts normally,the first option is to acclerate and 'dive' at the profile,if that don't work the airbrake comes out,but if the speed limt is active we may be f****d,because we just can,t lose both the speed and height in time.
So we are either at HON FL80,ballistic,
or HON FL100 250kts,
What would the BHX folk prefer,cos I don't want a bollocking !!
thanks for the replies,I will not assume a straightin is available in future and will not break my arse to get down.
As for the SLP,of course I was assuming it was a 'no speed 'situation.
When we get transferred to London on 130.92 we always get a vector towards leicester followed by direct HON,and as a rule we are left at certain levels for too long (as the VNAV pointer disappears off the bottom of the scale)
Now we descend at 280kts normally,the first option is to acclerate and 'dive' at the profile,if that don't work the airbrake comes out,but if the speed limt is active we may be f****d,because we just can,t lose both the speed and height in time.
So we are either at HON FL80,ballistic,
or HON FL100 250kts,
What would the BHX folk prefer,cos I don't want a bollocking !!
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I don't do bollockings - I leave that to the girls; they're much better at it!
As regards level/speed at HON I can't really be specific because TC may impose either or both without our knowledge.
Your trip towards Leicester is a tactical vector to put successive inbounds toward HON ten miles apart at the same level (FL80).
If you're transferred to Brum at a level higher than 80 then you can virtually guarantee a heading from HON or a trip to the hold, because the silent handover procedure has been cancelled due traffic.
As regards level/speed at HON I can't really be specific because TC may impose either or both without our knowledge.
Your trip towards Leicester is a tactical vector to put successive inbounds toward HON ten miles apart at the same level (FL80).
If you're transferred to Brum at a level higher than 80 then you can virtually guarantee a heading from HON or a trip to the hold, because the silent handover procedure has been cancelled due traffic.
