Communication
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Join Date: Aug 1999
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Communication
Wandering up from Dogga to NEW this morning we were handed off from London to Scottish(134.77) who then put us on headings right of centreline against opposite traffic.
After we passed we were cleared "own nav NEW, call scottish on 124.5" which we did only to be put straight back onto the same heading again. Are you guys not talking to each other or something???
just curious
After we passed we were cleared "own nav NEW, call scottish on 124.5" which we did only to be put straight back onto the same heading again. Are you guys not talking to each other or something???
just curious
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Flaps, no we don't. We seperate you from the traffic we know about in our own sectors, then hopefully put you back on your own nav as you like that sort of thing 
, unfortunately its becoming more common these days for another heading to be needed, but now there isn't really the time to phone up and ask the previous guy, and we know nothing of what is going on on the next radar and have no intention of knowing, so sorry, but it will always happen where it normally does. The other little cup-cake I know we do is for a controller to have you on a heading, turn you left or right, transfer you, only for the next guy to put you straight back on to the original heading 
As controllers, we have to have a plan and we do whats necessary to execute it, unfortunately those around have no idea what you are going to do so again, it will happen. Sometimes it can help what the previous guy does, setting up a resolution to a conflict they can also see, but normally there's more than one fish to get fried in the sky. 
, unfortunately its becoming more common these days for another heading to be needed, but now there isn't really the time to phone up and ask the previous guy, and we know nothing of what is going on on the next radar and have no intention of knowing, so sorry, but it will always happen where it normally does. The other little cup-cake I know we do is for a controller to have you on a heading, turn you left or right, transfer you, only for the next guy to put you straight back on to the original heading As controllers, we have to have a plan and we do whats necessary to execute it, unfortunately those around have no idea what you are going to do so again, it will happen. Sometimes it can help what the previous guy does, setting up a resolution to a conflict they can also see, but normally there's more than one fish to get fried in the sky.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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The other scenario is the old chestnut of asking three controllers how to resolve a situation and you'll get (at least!) four answers 
. So what one controller may see as a reasonable solution to his/her traffic situation and maybe even the next sector's problems, the accepting controller may not like that plan at all - just a fact of life I'm afraid.
. So what one controller may see as a reasonable solution to his/her traffic situation and maybe even the next sector's problems, the accepting controller may not like that plan at all - just a fact of life I'm afraid.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Hmmmmm, interesting that the next sector seeing that they have some traffic and that you appear to be on a heading wouldn't call and tell you to leave him on that heading. That is something we do a lot here...
Join Date: Sep 1999
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.....Yes Scott, and we do that alot here too!
Of course I'm sure you're just as aware as I am that it doesn't always happen for various reasons such as being too busy, something unexpected happening or just being half asleep and not paying attention
Of course I'm sure you're just as aware as I am that it doesn't always happen for various reasons such as being too busy, something unexpected happening or just being half asleep and not paying attention
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guys get used to it. We are so short of staff now and so busy, these levels of service are what you can expect now. Even if the 'offering' controller has time to make that call, the 'recieving' controller may be too busy to take the call.
We are running close to maximum very often now with staffing, sickness and capacity problems we just can't provide as good a service as we'd like.
I'm not saying it's a safety issue, but in order to reduce flow regulation the orderly and expeditious part of the service does suffer.
This manifests itself in the problem you've highlighted as well as reduction in accurate information offered, lack of direct routings, lack of climb, late decents, level capping, more airborne delays and sudden stops put on TMA departures.
These problems are a function of the pressure being applied to ATC in the UK and IMHO they aren't going to get solved soon.
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: vertigo ]
We are running close to maximum very often now with staffing, sickness and capacity problems we just can't provide as good a service as we'd like.
I'm not saying it's a safety issue, but in order to reduce flow regulation the orderly and expeditious part of the service does suffer.
This manifests itself in the problem you've highlighted as well as reduction in accurate information offered, lack of direct routings, lack of climb, late decents, level capping, more airborne delays and sudden stops put on TMA departures.
These problems are a function of the pressure being applied to ATC in the UK and IMHO they aren't going to get solved soon.
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: vertigo ]
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Flap
If you feel that being on a perceived irrelevant heading is annoying, just wait until/if/when you sample the NERC system.
Chances are you will be changing level like a roller coaster ride as well.
Currently we are accepting co-ordinations into a sector anything up to 30 mins or so from the sector boundary, Nerc average time parameter is around 6 minutes for traffic to be offered by the previous sector.
Knee-jerk reactions by the inappropriately named 'Planner' could spill your coffee!!
If you feel that being on a perceived irrelevant heading is annoying, just wait until/if/when you sample the NERC system.
Chances are you will be changing level like a roller coaster ride as well.
Currently we are accepting co-ordinations into a sector anything up to 30 mins or so from the sector boundary, Nerc average time parameter is around 6 minutes for traffic to be offered by the previous sector.
Knee-jerk reactions by the inappropriately named 'Planner' could spill your coffee!!
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Dear Dear Me Vertigo,
you will start to believe what you are typing soon. I feel like sending you blokes a red cross parcel or something to see you through the winter. The number of times aircraft come across to us on headings (apparently for controller amusement) I would need a Cray super computer to calculate. Then there are the others who make 45 degree turns to regain track for no apparent reason, if you are that convinced that you cannot provide the Orderly and Expeditious parts even with RVSM the sky must be falling.
Dont get me wrong, I agree 100% sometimes you dont know what the next sector wants and soemtimes you are too busy too call. - If its...Not a safety issue then what is it?
you will start to believe what you are typing soon. I feel like sending you blokes a red cross parcel or something to see you through the winter. The number of times aircraft come across to us on headings (apparently for controller amusement) I would need a Cray super computer to calculate. Then there are the others who make 45 degree turns to regain track for no apparent reason, if you are that convinced that you cannot provide the Orderly and Expeditious parts even with RVSM the sky must be falling.
Dont get me wrong, I agree 100% sometimes you dont know what the next sector wants and soemtimes you are too busy too call. - If its...Not a safety issue then what is it?
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The actual answer(not the sarcastic one from my next door neighbour!) is about 6 to 10 feet, depending how friendly they are !!
The same is true for 124.5 and 126.3. HOWEVER, the person on 124.5 (Tay Sector) is often working FIR traffic on a RIS, co-ordinating with Buchan/Neatishead etc, so is quite busy, along with W3D and P600 traffic.
It's often the case that someone gets airborne from Edinburgh and before he or she has the flight progress strip the TALLA (126.3)controller is asking for the inbound on one particular side of L602.
There is also the consideration of D512, which the MONTROSE (134.77) controller has often forgotten about as it's not in the UIR, and the TAY controller then has to position the ins and outs to best avoid this especially when it's active to 20,000 feet.
There are some of the reasons why you have the hard task of selecting heading mode once again !
I hope that provides something of an answer, but if you need anything more please ask, or even better come and have a visit !
The same is true for 124.5 and 126.3. HOWEVER, the person on 124.5 (Tay Sector) is often working FIR traffic on a RIS, co-ordinating with Buchan/Neatishead etc, so is quite busy, along with W3D and P600 traffic.
It's often the case that someone gets airborne from Edinburgh and before he or she has the flight progress strip the TALLA (126.3)controller is asking for the inbound on one particular side of L602.
There is also the consideration of D512, which the MONTROSE (134.77) controller has often forgotten about as it's not in the UIR, and the TAY controller then has to position the ins and outs to best avoid this especially when it's active to 20,000 feet.
There are some of the reasons why you have the hard task of selecting heading mode once again !
I hope that provides something of an answer, but if you need anything more please ask, or even better come and have a visit !
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Would love to come and see! What's the best answer? e-mail 10W or some one else????
Flap40
[email protected]
Flap40
[email protected]
