Turn 180

[Genghis the Engineer]

A couple of times recently I've been given the instruction, whilst on the ground to "turn 180". This is generally by a tower or ground controller at a medium to large UK airport just after landing.

Has this crept into ICAO standards when I wasn't looking - because I'm afraid it's a piece of terminology I really don't like. Wherever I am, if I'm given the instruction "turn 180" my automatic reaction is to turn to that heading, which on a (usually) E-W runway is deeply unhelpful.

Surely if on a runway and asked to turn around then go the other way "backtrack" is a much more sensible instruction? If on a taxiway that may be inappropriate, in which case plain english "turn around and go the other way" works for me - but numbers are surely for heights and headings.


Or am I just an old reactionary not keeping up with the times, and this is a piece of approved RT that I should know about? If so, could somebody enlighten me.

G

[rodan]

I tend to say 'One-Eighty' in that circumstance, which definitely isn't the correct format for a heading or a level, and anyway, headings and levels have no relevance on the ground unless you're about to depart - as you said, it tends to be used after landing. Certainly never had anyone misinterpret it, even foreign pilots with poor english.

'Turn around and go the other way' is far too much of a mouthful.

[Spitoon]

I've used 'do a one-eighty' for aircraft on the ground for years. Never had a problem and I don't recall a situation where the pilot (of any nationality) didn't understand what I meant. No there's no standard phrase for it but then there's no standard phrase for lots of things - then we use plain language. It's certainly easier for English speaking States but I wouldn't like to see a phraseology book that tried to tell me what to say in every conceivable situation - I thought they still paid me to exercise professional judgement occasionally! The day I have to root root through a book to check what I've got to say next I'll retire.

[grusome]

Indeed, "*** 180 and backtrack" has been in use for years, rightly or wrongly.
Gru

[Report@Boddam]

I normally tell aircraft to "180 backtrack". Can't see anything in either MATS 1 or CAP 413 which gives the correct phrase, but i only had a quick glance.

Genghis if you were being given a heading the controller should add "degrees"

I can't say if these answers are 100 percent correct. I sure someone out there will correct me if wrong.

[Genghis the Engineer]

"180 and backtrack" makes more sense to me, the term backtrack makes it far clearer, without it I still maintain that the instruction is less clear than it could be.

And checking my copy of CAP 413, it doesn't require "degrees" universally when giving a heading. "heading 180" or "track 180" would both be legitimate calls according to that.


Here's an instance; Let's say I've just landed at Blackpool on Rwy 10, and am down to taxi speed about mid-runway - that would be just short the C2/C3 holds. I am given the instruction "turn 180, exit second right to hold on the 13 numbers".

I could (and bear in mind, I'm at the end of a flight, so my brain is at-least slightly addled) potentially put two interpretations on this.

(1) Backtrack 10, turn down Rwy31,
(2) Turn south onto taxiway C, then turn right all the way down 31.

The former is almost certainly the correct and more appropriate interpretation - but in that case why not just say "backtrack 10, turn right onto Rwy31, hold on the 13 numbers"?


G

[keithl]

I thought the word "Backtrack" only applied to a runway. Therefore, if you were required to turn around anywhere else "a one-eighty" is the best way to describe it. I appreciate that for large aircraft the r/w is the only place they're likely (or able) to do that, but I raise the point in the interests of a complete answer.

[brimstone]

Genghis - agree with you that "turn 180" is a poor phrase open to misinterpretation. To an aircraft in the air the phrase "make a three-sixty turn left/right" is permissible therefore I would say that for an aircraft on the ground the phrase "make a one-eighty etc" is equally permissible where appropriate. Like Spitoon it's one I used for years without any difficulties arising.

[Eff Oh]

"Turn 180" on the ground I would assume would mean turn to face the opposite direction. I have never heard of ATC issuing a heading on the ground! Can't see how the confusion can arrise.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Headings on the ground aren't unknown in taxi instructions at a big open field with runway locations that aren't very obvious from the ground - Sywell or White Waltham for example.

G

[Bern Oulli]

"Turn 180"? Never heard it used. "Make a one eighty (and backtrack - optional)"? Used it at NATS and non-NATS airfields for years and years and ...you get the picture. Never once have I had it queried or misunderstood.
Not even by a French PPL (who managed to misunderstand just about everything else).

[DFC]

Sywell and White Waltham only have Air/Ground radio.

Any attempt to tell you the steer a heading of 180 on the ground is obviously wrong because no instructions can be issued by A/G stations.....perhaps that is the root of your confusion.

Hear 180 backtrack in many corners of the world. Never been issued with heading vectors on the ground (yet).

Regards,

DFC

[PPRuNe Radar]

Like Bernoulli says, I have heard, and been issued with, instructions to 'Make a 180 and backtrack/exit first left/exit at the high speed/etc/etc'. All perfectly clear and have never seen anyone have a problem with it.

I have even seen a Beech 18 make a 180 on the runway at Prestwick after landing without being instructed to. Mind you, it was icy and the thing ground looped unintentionally !!

I suppose you could perhaps ask the pilot to make a Rate 1 turn on the ground for 1 minute ... but not only is it a bit of a mouthfull, it would take ages to clear the strip

[Evil J]

And to clear up an earlier point, CAP493 (MATS Pt1) DOES require the word degrees to be used after headings ending in 0

ie "turn left heading 180 degrees" but if it doesn't end in a 0 degrees is not required

ie"turn left heading 185" is fine.


Don't believe me?? The reference is MATS Pt1 Appendix E page 7 para 4.1.4

[Milt]

The worst we used to have in aviation WAS

Port and Starboard

Thanks to all the Gods they have gone.

[Fujiflyer]

Milt, they (the terms) haven't give yet! (not over here, at least, yet).

I too share the dislike of the "turn 180" term. As Genghis says, when you've just landed its a bit distracting - it sounds a bit strange (although I can't pinpoint exactly why),

Fuji

[Yankee_Doodle_Floppy_Disk]

Can one "BACKTRACK" without making/turning 180? Is there a purpose for making/turning 180 other than to BACKTRACK?

Therefore the phrase "BACKTRACK" is sufficient without any instruction to turn.

[keithl]

YDFD - Surely one can "enter and backtrack" from a mid-r/w taxiway? So you turn, say, 90deg left to go down to the Threshold. The 180 would then be to line up.

[Yankee_Doodle_Floppy_Disk]

keithl

fair enough

How many would say "ENTER, TURN LEFT 90 BACTRACK.......TURN 180 LINE UP"
when
"BACKTRACK, LINE UP..."
is all that is required?