Heading xxx DEGREES
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Heading xxx DEGREES
Hi Guys and Gals. What is the official rule about using the word degrees when talking about heading. I can't find any reference in the CAP. I know that I never use it but i think I am wrong! Cheers
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Winston, I am only a lowly airline pilot but I believe the word 'degrees' should be added to any heading instruction ending in a zero to avoid confusion with altitude/flight level instructions. eg. Turn left, radar heading 160 degrees.
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I'm not sure about the rules but I only use "degrees" when giving an instruction to
"turn right or left XXX degrees",
never when giving an instruction like
"turn right or left heading XXX" or "fly heading XXX"
"turn right or left XXX degrees",
never when giving an instruction like
"turn right or left heading XXX" or "fly heading XXX"
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5MB has the story right, DEGREES with any heading ending in a ZERO.
Like LL DIR though, I've always used degrees (and Mb)
In one of my previous existances a/c were often given a heading of 110 (DEGREES) and climbed to FLIGHT LEVEL 100 (WUN ZERO ZERO, as it was then). Not surprisingly it didn't take much for a/c to confuse the two, ending in an incident "with potential" as they say.
Hence "FLIGHT LEVEL WUN HUNDRED", and heading "WUN WUN ZERO DEGREES".
(Actually I used FL90 and FL100 as crossing levels, and always used 085/095/105 as headings... belt and braces as HD says)
Rgds BEX
Like LL DIR though, I've always used degrees (and Mb)
In one of my previous existances a/c were often given a heading of 110 (DEGREES) and climbed to FLIGHT LEVEL 100 (WUN ZERO ZERO, as it was then). Not surprisingly it didn't take much for a/c to confuse the two, ending in an incident "with potential" as they say.
Hence "FLIGHT LEVEL WUN HUNDRED", and heading "WUN WUN ZERO DEGREES".
(Actually I used FL90 and FL100 as crossing levels, and always used 085/095/105 as headings... belt and braces as HD says)
Rgds BEX
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I think the most recent CHIRP update contained the information about using the word 'degrees' when given a heading ending in zero.
Have to admit that this was the first that I or my pilot colleagues knew of it. No doubt it's probably published somewhere we should have looked... Anyway, word is slowly passing around our airline and we're trying to use it as recommended.
Seems pretty sound to me.
Have to admit that this was the first that I or my pilot colleagues knew of it. No doubt it's probably published somewhere we should have looked... Anyway, word is slowly passing around our airline and we're trying to use it as recommended.
Seems pretty sound to me.
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In our part of the world we say,
"Turn left/right heading XXX" or "Fly heading XXX"
- by saying heading you are inferring degrees, are you not?
As for millibars, well its hectopascals in Oz, and when you say,
" Descend 9000 feet, QNH 1020" why would you need to say millibars or hectopascals?
Seems like you guys may be using too many words. Isn't R/T meant to be concise and clear?
DP
"Turn left/right heading XXX" or "Fly heading XXX"
- by saying heading you are inferring degrees, are you not?
As for millibars, well its hectopascals in Oz, and when you say,
" Descend 9000 feet, QNH 1020" why would you need to say millibars or hectopascals?
Seems like you guys may be using too many words. Isn't R/T meant to be concise and clear?
DP
In the UK, ATCOs are required to add 'millibars' after a pressure setting, whenever the value is less than 1000mb - (the reason is an attempt to avoid confusing pilots who also regularly use pressure settings in 'inches'). One way of ensuring that 'millibars' is specified when required, is to always say it, even when the pressure is 1000mb, or more.
I would also add that:-
Could also be ambiguous, hence:-
"Descend to Altitude 9000 feet, QNH 999 millibars"
I would also add that:-
"Descend 9000 feet .........."
"Descend to Altitude 9000 feet, QNH 999 millibars"
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The following words may be omitted from transmissions provided that no confusion or ambiguity will result:
a) ‘Surface’ and ‘knots’ in relation to surface wind direction and speed.
b) ‘Degrees’ in relation to surface wind direction and headings.
c) ‘Visibility’, ‘cloud’ and ‘height’ in meteorological reports.
d) ‘Millibars’ when giving pressure settings of 1000 mbs and above.
e) ‘over’, ‘roger’ and ‘out’.
See CAP413
The following phrases appear in the Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1.
Vectoring
Continue present heading.
Continue present heading and report that heading.
Continue heading (three digits).
Turn left/right heading (three digits).
Turn left/right (number) degrees and report heading.
Fly heading (three digits).
Stop turn heading (three digits).
Stop turn now.
Continue turn heading (three digits).
Leave (significant point) heading (three digits).
Resume own navigation for (significant point). Position is (distance)miles N/E/S/W of (reporting point).
Resume own navigation for (significant point) magnetic track (three digits) degrees, distance (number) miles.
Magnetic track to (significant point) is (three digits) degrees distance (number) miles.
Unknown traffic
Unknown traffic (number) o’clock (distance) miles opposite direction/crossing left to right/right to left indicating above/below/similar height, if not sighted turn left/right heading (three digits).
Clear of traffic. Resume own navigation.
Avoiding action
(A/c identity) avoiding action, (A/c identity) turn left/right immediately heading (three digits) traffic at (number) o’clock (distance) miles opposite direction/crossing left to right/right to left (level information).*
(A/c identity) Avoiding action, (A/c identity) climb/descend
immediately to (level) traffic at (number) o’clock (distance) miles
opposite direction/crossing left to right/right to left (level
information).*
*Clear enunciation and an urgent tone must be used.
a) ‘Surface’ and ‘knots’ in relation to surface wind direction and speed.
b) ‘Degrees’ in relation to surface wind direction and headings.
c) ‘Visibility’, ‘cloud’ and ‘height’ in meteorological reports.
d) ‘Millibars’ when giving pressure settings of 1000 mbs and above.
e) ‘over’, ‘roger’ and ‘out’.
See CAP413
The following phrases appear in the Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1.
Vectoring
Continue present heading.
Continue present heading and report that heading.
Continue heading (three digits).
Turn left/right heading (three digits).
Turn left/right (number) degrees and report heading.
Fly heading (three digits).
Stop turn heading (three digits).
Stop turn now.
Continue turn heading (three digits).
Leave (significant point) heading (three digits).
Resume own navigation for (significant point). Position is (distance)miles N/E/S/W of (reporting point).
Resume own navigation for (significant point) magnetic track (three digits) degrees, distance (number) miles.
Magnetic track to (significant point) is (three digits) degrees distance (number) miles.
Unknown traffic
Unknown traffic (number) o’clock (distance) miles opposite direction/crossing left to right/right to left indicating above/below/similar height, if not sighted turn left/right heading (three digits).
Clear of traffic. Resume own navigation.
Avoiding action
(A/c identity) avoiding action, (A/c identity) turn left/right immediately heading (three digits) traffic at (number) o’clock (distance) miles opposite direction/crossing left to right/right to left (level information).*
(A/c identity) Avoiding action, (A/c identity) climb/descend
immediately to (level) traffic at (number) o’clock (distance) miles
opposite direction/crossing left to right/right to left (level
information).*
*Clear enunciation and an urgent tone must be used.
Last edited by Charlie Fox; 28th Jul 2004 at 13:07.
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The use of degrees with a heading in LTCC has come about as best practice. This is because some pilots in the past have confused a heading instruction with a level instruction.
e.g. descend fl220 fly heading 250 reply - descend fl220 heading 220. We also try to give headings that end in 5's if possible.
Some controllers also don't use the phrase fly heading because some foriegn pilots have confused fly heading with flight level!
e.g. descend fl220 fly heading 250 reply - descend fl220 heading 220. We also try to give headings that end in 5's if possible.
Some controllers also don't use the phrase fly heading because some foriegn pilots have confused fly heading with flight level!
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Thanks a lot for the replies. I thought I'd revisit the CAP because it's been a few years since I sat the RT exam. There are many things I (re)learnt for example reading back "millibars" when the QNH is below 1000 as spekesoftly rightly says. Also things like saying "Descend TO altitude xxxx qnh xxx" as oppose to "Descend FLxxx" (No "TO" when refering to FL)
Just out of interest what do ATC think of the quality of R/T these days? PS I know I need to get a hobby!!!!
Just out of interest what do ATC think of the quality of R/T these days? PS I know I need to get a hobby!!!!
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Had this discussion with a trainee of mine the other day, as he was saying "descend altitude 9,000 feet, QNH 998" (we don't say millibars or hectopascals, as we think the pilot reading back Q N H would be enough to make it clear what we mean). After a little research, we found that the concensus internationally (not the UK) was either say "altitude 9,000", or "9,000 feet", but no need to say both. Either altitude before the number or feet after surely is enough to remove any confusion as to what you are saying. And if not, what is listening out to a readback for. If the pilot gets it wrong 1 time out of 1000 due to confusion, you pick it up on the readback and correct him, rather than adding extra words unneccessarily for the other 999 times.
And I agree with Dirty Pierre from OZ, I was trained there as well, and it seems like over kill to say "turn left heading 320 degrees". If the "turn left" isn't enough to twig the pilot that it is a turn rather than a change of level, then the use of the word "heading" should be, and then again as I said if there is somehow still confusion, then that is why you listen to your readbacks.
In addition I never say "descend to altitude 9,000 QNH 998". Why throw a word in there that is also a number to confuse things, when as far as I can see it helps in no way.
And I agree with Dirty Pierre from OZ, I was trained there as well, and it seems like over kill to say "turn left heading 320 degrees". If the "turn left" isn't enough to twig the pilot that it is a turn rather than a change of level, then the use of the word "heading" should be, and then again as I said if there is somehow still confusion, then that is why you listen to your readbacks.
In addition I never say "descend to altitude 9,000 QNH 998". Why throw a word in there that is also a number to confuse things, when as far as I can see it helps in no way.
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The inclusion of the word degrees was suggested as good practice from an ongoing investigation of level busts. If my memory serves me correctly, a significant number of level busts occured when a climb/descent and turn were given in the same transmission, as in Zkdli s example. Often the readback would be correct - instant response - and then the transposition would take place - active response. The first the ATCO knew about it was as the level bust took place. Including the word "degrees" after the figures was meant to emphisise which was which, as it tends to be the last thing heard that sticks in the mind longest.
I agree it is good practice, but feel that ATCOs should not rely on such devices. If the circumstances arise in which a heading is more likely to be mistaken for a level and particularly if the results of such a mistake could be catastrophic, use a heading ending in five or make two transmissions.
I agree it is good practice, but feel that ATCOs should not rely on such devices. If the circumstances arise in which a heading is more likely to be mistaken for a level and particularly if the results of such a mistake could be catastrophic, use a heading ending in five or make two transmissions.
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Using the odd 5 doesn't always do the trick.
Saw a nasty in TC one day. LL Sam departure, Iberia I think.....TURN RIGHT HEADING 245, CONTACT LONDON 124.92...read it back. then went AWOL inbetween freq's climbing to FL245 instead of FL150 and nearly had a nasty with a Navy something or other. Sometimes even belt and braces doesn't do it......
Saw a nasty in TC one day. LL Sam departure, Iberia I think.....TURN RIGHT HEADING 245, CONTACT LONDON 124.92...read it back. then went AWOL inbetween freq's climbing to FL245 instead of FL150 and nearly had a nasty with a Navy something or other. Sometimes even belt and braces doesn't do it......
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AirNoServicesAustralia DirtyPierre
In the UK inclusion of the word "heading" is not really overkill. UK ATC use headings to separate traffic to a much greater degree (no pun intended) than any other ATC provider in my experience. Since the R/T is almost always very busy, inclusion of the word degrees helps to pick out the purpose of a three digit number amongst the many others which form an almost continuous stream.
The term "millibars" is added primarily as a hint for US operators. I am surprised that you guys don't feel the need to add the term in Oz, because I don't think it would be an exageration to say that at least one US pilot every day will fail to readback his/her clearance in a way which convinces the controller that he/she is climbing/decending to an altitude (as opposed to a flight level) and has set the QNH.
This is NOT meant to offend US pilots, I am the first to admit that I struggle to switch my mind to US phraseology when I fly over there and hence make mistakes. Use of "millibars" is just UK ATC's way of adding an extra level of safety for operators who are not exposed to European ATC methods every day.
Just my ideas on the matter
G W-H
In the UK inclusion of the word "heading" is not really overkill. UK ATC use headings to separate traffic to a much greater degree (no pun intended) than any other ATC provider in my experience. Since the R/T is almost always very busy, inclusion of the word degrees helps to pick out the purpose of a three digit number amongst the many others which form an almost continuous stream.
The term "millibars" is added primarily as a hint for US operators. I am surprised that you guys don't feel the need to add the term in Oz, because I don't think it would be an exageration to say that at least one US pilot every day will fail to readback his/her clearance in a way which convinces the controller that he/she is climbing/decending to an altitude (as opposed to a flight level) and has set the QNH.
This is NOT meant to offend US pilots, I am the first to admit that I struggle to switch my mind to US phraseology when I fly over there and hence make mistakes. Use of "millibars" is just UK ATC's way of adding an extra level of safety for operators who are not exposed to European ATC methods every day.
Just my ideas on the matter
G W-H
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I can see why the use of degrees is used after headings with a zero to stop confusion with levels in Controlled Airspace,but up here there is another problem.We work a lot in class F and G airspace where Quadrantal levels are used all the time.So do we not use degrees after all headings;for example ''Turn right heading 125, climb flight level 115''.Same problem.
Can't get a straight answer on that.
Can't get a straight answer on that.
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Giles,
Comparing Oz air traffic to what you guys have to do in Europe is frought with danger. We have far less traffic, less radar coverage hence more procedural control, some huge sectors, some are more than 10 times the size of the UK. Apples and oranges.
I can't speak for ANSA, he's now in the ME, but I went and looked at our bible for ATC, MATS. I'm about to return to our training section as an instructor, so I thought a quick troll through the books would be good.
Our documents are meant to be ICAO compliant, but of course what we are meant to say, and what we actually say are often different.
the Manual of Air Traffic Services says that we should say,
"turn left/right heading XXX" or "turn left/right XXX degrees, report heading"
This is also how we train our controllers, and what most of them would also say. Use of degrees in headings is regarded like saying PIN number. A tautology. So far there have been no incidents in regard to giving headings with changes of level in Oz, as far as I can recall.
As for QNH. In Oz we say altitude in feet to A100 (10,000 feet), then we use flight level above that. Our transition layer is A100-F110. Also, QNH world wide (if my met lessons are remembered correctly) is measured in hectopascals (HPA) not millibars. Millibars went out with centigarde for temperature. Happens when your government changes completely to the metric system of measurement. And we do not have to say HPA with QNH. No Oz ATC does anyway, and no incidents thru misunderstandings as far as I recall.
So we are different in Oz. Not better or worse, just different.
We do get US pilots in Oz as well, and usually they have no problems. The military pilots have "Oz cutural training" when they first get here, but they love the flying here (all that big blue sky to play in), and quickly get used to the way we do things.
We do teach the KISS principle, especially with R/T. Make it clear and concise, and don't speak too quickly even if you are busy. It slows you down to say it all over again. And most importantly, get the right readback.
Regards
DP
Comparing Oz air traffic to what you guys have to do in Europe is frought with danger. We have far less traffic, less radar coverage hence more procedural control, some huge sectors, some are more than 10 times the size of the UK. Apples and oranges.
I can't speak for ANSA, he's now in the ME, but I went and looked at our bible for ATC, MATS. I'm about to return to our training section as an instructor, so I thought a quick troll through the books would be good.
Our documents are meant to be ICAO compliant, but of course what we are meant to say, and what we actually say are often different.
the Manual of Air Traffic Services says that we should say,
"turn left/right heading XXX" or "turn left/right XXX degrees, report heading"
This is also how we train our controllers, and what most of them would also say. Use of degrees in headings is regarded like saying PIN number. A tautology. So far there have been no incidents in regard to giving headings with changes of level in Oz, as far as I can recall.
As for QNH. In Oz we say altitude in feet to A100 (10,000 feet), then we use flight level above that. Our transition layer is A100-F110. Also, QNH world wide (if my met lessons are remembered correctly) is measured in hectopascals (HPA) not millibars. Millibars went out with centigarde for temperature. Happens when your government changes completely to the metric system of measurement. And we do not have to say HPA with QNH. No Oz ATC does anyway, and no incidents thru misunderstandings as far as I recall.
So we are different in Oz. Not better or worse, just different.
We do get US pilots in Oz as well, and usually they have no problems. The military pilots have "Oz cutural training" when they first get here, but they love the flying here (all that big blue sky to play in), and quickly get used to the way we do things.
We do teach the KISS principle, especially with R/T. Make it clear and concise, and don't speak too quickly even if you are busy. It slows you down to say it all over again. And most importantly, get the right readback.
Regards
DP
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Giles Wembley-Hogg, I didn't say the use of the word Heading was overkill, I believe that the word degrees after saying turn left heading 270 is. In the Middle East, I would most certainly talk to more US military pilots than you would in the UK, and honestly right now, probably as many as the domestic American controllers do. They are everywhere over here as you can guess.
I have had not one instant of confusion with them due to not saying degrees or hectopascals or millibars after the QNH. I have had a lot that have just done what they want in complete contravention of the clearance they received, and even more whos ears are painted on, but the phraseology and the differences from different controllers from all round the world has not caused problems.
Generally I have found the American controllers (US and Canadian) are the briefest with RT, and the UK controllers at the other extreme, saying a million things that many other would find unneccesary all to tin plate their arse a million times over. I think the Aussies, Swedes, Sth Africans etc. over here all fall somewhere in the middle ground. I guess whatever works for someone is fine, but I would have aproblem if in a check I got chipped for not saying "degrees", or "millibars" etc. I won't though cos thankfully it's not in the books here that we have to say it.
I have had not one instant of confusion with them due to not saying degrees or hectopascals or millibars after the QNH. I have had a lot that have just done what they want in complete contravention of the clearance they received, and even more whos ears are painted on, but the phraseology and the differences from different controllers from all round the world has not caused problems.
Generally I have found the American controllers (US and Canadian) are the briefest with RT, and the UK controllers at the other extreme, saying a million things that many other would find unneccesary all to tin plate their arse a million times over. I think the Aussies, Swedes, Sth Africans etc. over here all fall somewhere in the middle ground. I guess whatever works for someone is fine, but I would have aproblem if in a check I got chipped for not saying "degrees", or "millibars" etc. I won't though cos thankfully it's not in the books here that we have to say it.