Height Issue
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Don't know if this is of any help, but I was at Heathrow for pre employment medical the other day and brought this subject up. I was told that the problem is with regard to the dimensions of the workstations being designed to accomodate people within a particular height band - not sure what the relevant heights are I'm afraid. Apparently people taller OR shorter than the design parameters are likely to suffer problems (back or eyesight I would imagine) in the long term.
Similar restrictions apply to civil and military pilots which vary depending on aircraft type.
I realise you must be very disappointed about the withdrawal of your job offer but I doubt whether legal action is going to get you very far if NATS are able to assert the probabilty of long term health problems if they were to employ you.
Similar restrictions apply to civil and military pilots which vary depending on aircraft type.
I realise you must be very disappointed about the withdrawal of your job offer but I doubt whether legal action is going to get you very far if NATS are able to assert the probabilty of long term health problems if they were to employ you.
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Think we have a couple of guys in the Ops Room here around the 6'7'' mark. I suspect the consoles and seating aren't the most comfortable of things for them, but they seem to get along OK.
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OK - I'm a bit worried now - I hope that 1/4" under 5 foot isn't considered too short! Anyone know the figures? I would feel awful to get accepted then be told I couldn't do it for such a ridiculous reason, my sympathies are with the tall chap and I wish him the best of luck appealing.
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Had my medical yesterday, according to the nurse there is no minimum height (phew
) but they will be introducing a maximum height of about 6'5"ish. For reasons mentioned earlier (problems with desks etc.).
) but they will be introducing a maximum height of about 6'5"ish. For reasons mentioned earlier (problems with desks etc.).
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Hiya,
Just to update you, the lawyers have come to the opinion that it would be very very very hard to make a case. I have until October 11th if I wish to take NATS to a tribunal, but again it would be difficult to make a case.
I have also spoken to the Sunday Times and the mirror, both had no interest in the story.
I’m overwhelmed by the response to this thread. Thank You. And I’ll keep you all posted in any further developments.
Ben
Just to update you, the lawyers have come to the opinion that it would be very very very hard to make a case. I have until October 11th if I wish to take NATS to a tribunal, but again it would be difficult to make a case.
I have also spoken to the Sunday Times and the mirror, both had no interest in the story.
I’m overwhelmed by the response to this thread. Thank You. And I’ll keep you all posted in any further developments.
Ben
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Hiya,
Well just to let you know that today I've had funding for a private Air Traffic course turned down again for being too tall !!!!!!!
No one is interested in training tall people as air traffic controllers, so DIY amputation I think is required!
But hay if there's anyone out there who wants a FISO who will work long hours 7 days a week, with little pay, then please do shout (by the way I'm quite tall so if you can't accommodate me then don't waste any more of my time
).
Ben
Well just to let you know that today I've had funding for a private Air Traffic course turned down again for being too tall !!!!!!!
No one is interested in training tall people as air traffic controllers, so DIY amputation I think is required!
But hay if there's anyone out there who wants a FISO who will work long hours 7 days a week, with little pay, then please do shout (by the way I'm quite tall so if you can't accommodate me then don't waste any more of my time
).Ben
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Well as you have asked, I was refussed the funding by a high street bank because.........
As NATS think I am too tall, they will not fund a course of training in the same field.
Ben
P.S. My current account is with HSBC so you can find a link somewhere!
As NATS think I am too tall, they will not fund a course of training in the same field.
Ben
P.S. My current account is with HSBC so you can find a link somewhere!
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Ben
what can I say - the saga is more and more appalling each time you post. Have you investigated Eurocontrol - do they have the same stupid rules?
Thames Virtual
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what can I say - the saga is more and more appalling each time you post. Have you investigated Eurocontrol - do they have the same stupid rules?
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What you need to do is;
1. Start the process of making an appeal so that you do not get caught by the deadline.
2. Get NATS HR to confirm in writing that the reason for the height restriction is the perceived problems with radar consoles at LACC, LTCC, MACC and ScOACC.
Having obtained that info;
1. Ask them when the next course to be sent to tower locations such as Luton etc will start and what their reason is for not putting you on that course.
2. Ask them for full disclosure of the study into physical geometry including measuraments that they are using to set the limits.
If the NATS case rests purely on "maximum height" then they have made a mistake. What actually matters is physical geometry. The fact that you are tall probably means that you have longer arms than most. Therefore you can sit further back from the display than the average person but still reach the strip display. With a sloping display, this act of being further away can place you within the normal viewing angle. Your Class 1 medical confirms that you will not have a problem reading text from that distance and modern radar displays have the ability to increase the size of the text in many stages.
Being tall will mean that you will sit with the chair at the lowest settign and probably with your knees slightly higher that your buttocks. This is a far better way of sitting than the one used by short people who have the seat at maximum height and their feet off or only slightly touching the floor.
Overall, when it comes to physical geometry, being tall is far less of a problem than being short because a short person who has arm length in proportion may have problems reaching the display from a sitting position and will either have to adopt an unnatural seating position or (better) possibly stand. They will often be viewing the display from a lower position then expected during HF design and may have to cope with glare from overhead lighting that is not a problem for people of average or higher heights.
Many times I have visited towers and found that the ATCOs (and ATSAs) spent much of their time straining to see over consoles and round pillars because 90% of their time was looking out the window. Being tall in a control tower can have many advantages so perhaps NATS should be persued down that road.
Finally, NATs is not the only training establishment in the UK offering ATC courses........try and obtain an agreement to train you from one of the other providers and then you can;
a) Take it to your bank to get the money; and
b) Use it to bolster your case against NATs.
Best of luck
DFC
1. Start the process of making an appeal so that you do not get caught by the deadline.
2. Get NATS HR to confirm in writing that the reason for the height restriction is the perceived problems with radar consoles at LACC, LTCC, MACC and ScOACC.
Having obtained that info;
1. Ask them when the next course to be sent to tower locations such as Luton etc will start and what their reason is for not putting you on that course.
2. Ask them for full disclosure of the study into physical geometry including measuraments that they are using to set the limits.
If the NATS case rests purely on "maximum height" then they have made a mistake. What actually matters is physical geometry. The fact that you are tall probably means that you have longer arms than most. Therefore you can sit further back from the display than the average person but still reach the strip display. With a sloping display, this act of being further away can place you within the normal viewing angle. Your Class 1 medical confirms that you will not have a problem reading text from that distance and modern radar displays have the ability to increase the size of the text in many stages.
Being tall will mean that you will sit with the chair at the lowest settign and probably with your knees slightly higher that your buttocks. This is a far better way of sitting than the one used by short people who have the seat at maximum height and their feet off or only slightly touching the floor.
Overall, when it comes to physical geometry, being tall is far less of a problem than being short because a short person who has arm length in proportion may have problems reaching the display from a sitting position and will either have to adopt an unnatural seating position or (better) possibly stand. They will often be viewing the display from a lower position then expected during HF design and may have to cope with glare from overhead lighting that is not a problem for people of average or higher heights.
Many times I have visited towers and found that the ATCOs (and ATSAs) spent much of their time straining to see over consoles and round pillars because 90% of their time was looking out the window. Being tall in a control tower can have many advantages so perhaps NATS should be persued down that road.
Finally, NATs is not the only training establishment in the UK offering ATC courses........try and obtain an agreement to train you from one of the other providers and then you can;
a) Take it to your bank to get the money; and
b) Use it to bolster your case against NATs.
Best of luck
DFC
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Ben,
Today I spoke to a friend who works for a major bank in the UK(Head Office in Edinburgh, likes to think its a Jock Bank with Royal patronage, and has a major stake just about every major UK insurance and financial institution).
He is an area manager responsible for lending policy, and he was absolutely catagoric in stating that they would not be able to refuse a loan purely on the basis of the circumstances which you have stated.
To do so would leave them wide open in terms of Human rights legislation and disablitiy discrimination.
In considering the loan in a case of someone who wants the money to better themselves, they would not only consider current credit worthiness, but your ability to repay once qualified, and possibly a guarantor, or any security which you could provide, and also the type of course you want to undertake together with the projected salary at the end of it.
In simple terms, unless you have a physical disability which prevents you from passing and retaining a CAA class one medical, and unless you've been made bankrupt in the recent past, you would be ideal lending material.
I sincerely hope that you succeed in achieving your ultimate aim, but at the risk of being a devils advocate, is there something that you haven't told us?
Today I spoke to a friend who works for a major bank in the UK(Head Office in Edinburgh, likes to think its a Jock Bank with Royal patronage, and has a major stake just about every major UK insurance and financial institution).
He is an area manager responsible for lending policy, and he was absolutely catagoric in stating that they would not be able to refuse a loan purely on the basis of the circumstances which you have stated.
To do so would leave them wide open in terms of Human rights legislation and disablitiy discrimination.
In considering the loan in a case of someone who wants the money to better themselves, they would not only consider current credit worthiness, but your ability to repay once qualified, and possibly a guarantor, or any security which you could provide, and also the type of course you want to undertake together with the projected salary at the end of it.
In simple terms, unless you have a physical disability which prevents you from passing and retaining a CAA class one medical, and unless you've been made bankrupt in the recent past, you would be ideal lending material.
I sincerely hope that you succeed in achieving your ultimate aim, but at the risk of being a devils advocate, is there something that you haven't told us?
Last edited by niknak; 9th Sep 2004 at 11:59.
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Hiya,
There are other factors that HSBC took into account, which were the fact I already have a 12 K loan with them, but I could also provide security through parental guarantors. However there major concern was the ability to get a job at the end.
As you know NikNak, I was looking at funding to do an Aerodrome course, and a surveillance course. We explained to them the procedural course as well and HSBC took the view that without that last rating I would be limiting the jobs I could apply for. Along with the height issue that NATS had, they said that the likely hood of employment at the end of the course was low. Also the time frame I had to get the funding was short, and thus it didn’t give much too much time for HSBC to deal with the application.
Hiya DFC,
It looks as if NATS are one up on you. I received this from them regards my offer of employment with them.
I feel as if I can not pursue this career anymore, after 3 years of selection and waiting I am tired of it all. As for the legal battle it would be difficult, long and drawn out. They have said no, for a reason that isn’t fair but there is nothing I can do about it. It looks like I should go and get an IT job for which there is no height limit, and forget any dreams or aspirations of a career in aviation.
I thank everyone on here for there support in the last few weeks.
Ben
There are other factors that HSBC took into account, which were the fact I already have a 12 K loan with them, but I could also provide security through parental guarantors. However there major concern was the ability to get a job at the end.
As you know NikNak, I was looking at funding to do an Aerodrome course, and a surveillance course. We explained to them the procedural course as well and HSBC took the view that without that last rating I would be limiting the jobs I could apply for. Along with the height issue that NATS had, they said that the likely hood of employment at the end of the course was low. Also the time frame I had to get the funding was short, and thus it didn’t give much too much time for HSBC to deal with the application.
Hiya DFC,
It looks as if NATS are one up on you. I received this from them regards my offer of employment with them.
As I mentioned I have discuss the results of your Display Screen Equipment check with our Doctors in Occupational Health Department and our Health and Safety advisor. Their very strong advice is that our current generation of equipment both at the College of Air Traffic Control and at operational units would not be suitable to allow you to work without the serious risk of long term damage to you health.
It is also I am afraid not reasonable for NATS to make adjustments to the equipment as unlike an individual desk they are used by several people, ATCOs will work on various sector and with a multiple watch system several ATCO will work on the same position over a 24hour period. So if we adjusted an ATCO work station to meet your requirement that workstation may then be unusable by several other ATCOs.
In view of the advice I have been given I very much regret that I have no alternative but to withdraw our offer of employment. I am also sorry that this has taken so long to come to the fore and we are currently reviewing our procedures and the questions we ask on the application form to highlight and future cases at the earliest opportunity. I know that this will be a bitter disappointment to you as I know how keen you are to become an ATCO. As I said I am however prepared to keep your selection details on file and should future generations of equipment be more flexible then we would be able to move directly to an offer of a training course, subject of course to a renewal of your ATCO 1 medical and security clearance and references. Please feel free to keep in contact with me so that I can update you on the position regarding the next generation of equipment
You asked for some feedback on your selection data, and I am happy to confirm that you scored very well on all of the aptitude tests you took, and your average aptitude test score worked out at 8 out of 10. Your motivation score was also very high.
Once again I am sorry that this has had to be the outcome but I would like to wish you all the best for the future.
It is also I am afraid not reasonable for NATS to make adjustments to the equipment as unlike an individual desk they are used by several people, ATCOs will work on various sector and with a multiple watch system several ATCO will work on the same position over a 24hour period. So if we adjusted an ATCO work station to meet your requirement that workstation may then be unusable by several other ATCOs.
In view of the advice I have been given I very much regret that I have no alternative but to withdraw our offer of employment. I am also sorry that this has taken so long to come to the fore and we are currently reviewing our procedures and the questions we ask on the application form to highlight and future cases at the earliest opportunity. I know that this will be a bitter disappointment to you as I know how keen you are to become an ATCO. As I said I am however prepared to keep your selection details on file and should future generations of equipment be more flexible then we would be able to move directly to an offer of a training course, subject of course to a renewal of your ATCO 1 medical and security clearance and references. Please feel free to keep in contact with me so that I can update you on the position regarding the next generation of equipment
You asked for some feedback on your selection data, and I am happy to confirm that you scored very well on all of the aptitude tests you took, and your average aptitude test score worked out at 8 out of 10. Your motivation score was also very high.
Once again I am sorry that this has had to be the outcome but I would like to wish you all the best for the future.
I thank everyone on here for there support in the last few weeks.
Ben
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Ben,
Frankly I am amazed and disgusted at the response you've had from NATS, if you were applying for an administrative job and were equally or better qualified than the next candidate but confined to a wheelchair, they would have moved heaven and earth to employ you, purely because they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they hadn't taken you on.
I wish I could think of a way of helping you further, I don't suppose that any disability rights groups or other such organisations could help you out?
You must be very demorolised, but don't give up, the internet is a very powerful tool, and with any luck a bit of time spent beavering away may be to your ultimate benefit.
All the best.
Frankly I am amazed and disgusted at the response you've had from NATS, if you were applying for an administrative job and were equally or better qualified than the next candidate but confined to a wheelchair, they would have moved heaven and earth to employ you, purely because they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they hadn't taken you on.
I wish I could think of a way of helping you further, I don't suppose that any disability rights groups or other such organisations could help you out?
You must be very demorolised, but don't give up, the internet is a very powerful tool, and with any luck a bit of time spent beavering away may be to your ultimate benefit.
All the best.
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It looks like I should go and get an IT job for which there is no height limit, and forget any dreams or aspirations of a career in aviation
Seems a pity to let NATS off so lightly especially since work in the IT industry will expose you to exactly the same physical geometry problems when using display equipment.
The only place where NATS has made a major recent change in equipment is at the new Swanwick centre. Controllers of all sizes posted there from West Drayton had spent years bent over horizontal radar displays without any major outbreak in health problems.
Perhaps some person who works at London Terminal Control could tell us what the height is from the floor to the top of their displays.........Only viewed them from the viewing balcony but it appeared (as it does in most promotional photos) that many average sized people were leaning forward and looking upwards to see the screen.....ouch!!!....how bad is that for one's neck and spine!!!!.........Years back visited scottish ACC on a liasion visit and noted that controllers had to stretch a long way on a frequent basis to push buttons above the radar display......again not very good..........and all problems that you would not have.
If NATS are so sure that you can not operate simple display and related equipment without possible detriment to your health then it would be fair to say that many other areas of work are also going to have the same effect which would leave very few positions available to you and thus you would almost be in a position to claim disability benifit. You need to find out the exact details of who did the test, who set the limits and what those limits are based on.
If you check out the tall persons club of GB, you will find that at least one member is currently employed by NATS in an enroute ATC position at Swanwick and using the very same displays that NATS say are unsafe for you to use. I am sure that the term "double standards" will be used by some legal eagle either on your behalf or on their behalf when they make a claim.
Perhaps you need to use that motivation more.
Regards,
DFC
Seems a pity to let NATS off so lightly especially since work in the IT industry will expose you to exactly the same physical geometry problems when using display equipment.
The only place where NATS has made a major recent change in equipment is at the new Swanwick centre. Controllers of all sizes posted there from West Drayton had spent years bent over horizontal radar displays without any major outbreak in health problems.
Perhaps some person who works at London Terminal Control could tell us what the height is from the floor to the top of their displays.........Only viewed them from the viewing balcony but it appeared (as it does in most promotional photos) that many average sized people were leaning forward and looking upwards to see the screen.....ouch!!!....how bad is that for one's neck and spine!!!!.........Years back visited scottish ACC on a liasion visit and noted that controllers had to stretch a long way on a frequent basis to push buttons above the radar display......again not very good..........and all problems that you would not have.
If NATS are so sure that you can not operate simple display and related equipment without possible detriment to your health then it would be fair to say that many other areas of work are also going to have the same effect which would leave very few positions available to you and thus you would almost be in a position to claim disability benifit. You need to find out the exact details of who did the test, who set the limits and what those limits are based on.
If you check out the tall persons club of GB, you will find that at least one member is currently employed by NATS in an enroute ATC position at Swanwick and using the very same displays that NATS say are unsafe for you to use. I am sure that the term "double standards" will be used by some legal eagle either on your behalf or on their behalf when they make a claim.
Perhaps you need to use that motivation more.
Regards,
DFC
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Hiya,
Just a quick line to update you. I have successfully passed all the tests for Eurocontrol and hopefully pending my medical I will be starting in March 2005.
Thank You for all your support.
Ben
Just a quick line to update you. I have successfully passed all the tests for Eurocontrol and hopefully pending my medical I will be starting in March 2005.
Thank You for all your support.
Ben
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Ben, well done mate! Keep us updated on your progress within Eurocontrol.
Alpha16 and I could always post your name plate if you want it to take to Maastricht.
PS. Hope you don't mind but I am using your Dundridge issued pen and pencil!!
Alpha16 and I could always post your name plate if you want it to take to Maastricht.
PS. Hope you don't mind but I am using your Dundridge issued pen and pencil!!