Pet Peeves
(joking!................one or two are OK
People who say 'on frequency'..........isnt that obvious being as you just stated your callsign?
People who say your frequency when they call. I'm a valid controller and know what my frequency is thank you very much!!
Ooooh......I could witter on for hours! I'm turning into an old woman!
People who say your frequency when they call. I'm a valid controller and know what my frequency is thank you very much!!
Ooooh......I could witter on for hours! I'm turning into an old woman!
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Thanks for all your replies, they've been very interesting.
I'm sure I'm guilty of some of your points, and will try to iron things out!
One question, in some areas, esp. over the SE, frequency congestion is so bad that it's virtually impossible to get your call in until you're presumably halfway through the sector.
How worried should I be about this? Can we simply assume that if you really need to call us (before we get a chance to check in) you'll just ask if we're on frequency?
The reason I ask is that it can be very frustrating when you switch freqs and find a seeming age of consecutive instructions from ATC to other aircraft, and when there's finally a break, seven other crews all try and jump on at the same time.
This thought was prompted by the criticism, and my personal distaste, for inturrupting and not listening out first.
What are your feelings on this?
I'm sure I'm guilty of some of your points, and will try to iron things out!
One question, in some areas, esp. over the SE, frequency congestion is so bad that it's virtually impossible to get your call in until you're presumably halfway through the sector.
How worried should I be about this? Can we simply assume that if you really need to call us (before we get a chance to check in) you'll just ask if we're on frequency?
The reason I ask is that it can be very frustrating when you switch freqs and find a seeming age of consecutive instructions from ATC to other aircraft, and when there's finally a break, seven other crews all try and jump on at the same time.
This thought was prompted by the criticism, and my personal distaste, for inturrupting and not listening out first.
What are your feelings on this?
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Emirates pilots (lately) on first contact, prior to being identified, regardless of how busy the frequency is, asking for direct routing!!
One even called me the other day 90 miles out of my airspace telling me that the previous unit had released him to me for any track shortening!!
Anyone asking for the opposite end of the duty runway!!!
Back to the footy....
One even called me the other day 90 miles out of my airspace telling me that the previous unit had released him to me for any track shortening!!
Anyone asking for the opposite end of the duty runway!!!
Back to the footy....
Ohcirrej
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Hi Abra,
Frequency satuaration is certainly a problem around that area of the world (and others I'm sure). IHMO, short, concise standard RT is definately a step in the right direction. One thing that I have heard quite a few times is a "guess" at either a heading or alititude instruction (which was missed for whatever reason).
"Ummmm, turn right, ahhhhh.......turn right 240?".
I had a flight one day instructed to leave a hold heading 125 (can you guess which one?), and the reply was "Umm, leave heading, umm, leave heading 285?", which was a blatent guess. When told the correct heading, the reply was "Well, at least we got the 5 right". At the time, I didn't really see the humour in the response.
I guess we could start a similar thread "What does ATC do to give pilots the sh*ts?" (apart from putting Point 7 on Arrivals!)
Frequency satuaration is certainly a problem around that area of the world (and others I'm sure). IHMO, short, concise standard RT is definately a step in the right direction. One thing that I have heard quite a few times is a "guess" at either a heading or alititude instruction (which was missed for whatever reason).
"Ummmm, turn right, ahhhhh.......turn right 240?".
I had a flight one day instructed to leave a hold heading 125 (can you guess which one?), and the reply was "Umm, leave heading, umm, leave heading 285?", which was a blatent guess. When told the correct heading, the reply was "Well, at least we got the 5 right". At the time, I didn't really see the humour in the response.
I guess we could start a similar thread "What does ATC do to give pilots the sh*ts?" (apart from putting Point 7 on Arrivals!)
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Thanks for your response Jerricho.
I've heard plenty of complaints about ATC, some of which were justified, but many of which I felt didn't really stand up due to the fact that as pilots we only have a small picture of what's going on.
One thing that baffles me is why sometimes we get cleared direct to some extremely distant point on our flight plan (usually greeted with great enthusiasm of course!) only to be told two minutes later to 'turn right/left ten degrees'.
It seems to me that unless we are very close to a given waypoint, we almost never get all the way there without going back onto vectors first.
I know we don't see the 'big picture', but is this 'route direct' business sometimes used just to give ATC a break from giving headings or what?
thanks
-abra
I've heard plenty of complaints about ATC, some of which were justified, but many of which I felt didn't really stand up due to the fact that as pilots we only have a small picture of what's going on.
One thing that baffles me is why sometimes we get cleared direct to some extremely distant point on our flight plan (usually greeted with great enthusiasm of course!) only to be told two minutes later to 'turn right/left ten degrees'.
It seems to me that unless we are very close to a given waypoint, we almost never get all the way there without going back onto vectors first.
I know we don't see the 'big picture', but is this 'route direct' business sometimes used just to give ATC a break from giving headings or what?
thanks
-abra
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Well thank goodness we're all so perfect then, eh? 
The only real irrit I have is a certain siamese international airline that calls on with "departures, <callsign> airborne!" or "departures, <callsign> climbing!"
The only real irrit I have is a certain siamese international airline that calls on with "departures, <callsign> airborne!" or "departures, <callsign> climbing!"
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Hey Diving Duck, haven't noticed the requests for direct tracking personally but I guess we don't have them long enough for that. Agree on the requesting opposite end of runway. Air Arabia must have it as a standard operating procedure to push for runway changes at Shj every time they come in. Even got to the point where the pilot when told it was not available, asked "why not, the wind is light and variable, why can't we have it". Had nothing to do with the departures lined up about to get away and the other arrivals from the other side all happy with their straight in clearances. 
I think almost all the gripes mentioned have come down to one thing and that is when pilots think they are the only pilots in the sky and so they should always be No.1, and always be straight in on RWY of choice, direct to final, cancel STAR speed restriction etc etc.
I think almost all the gripes mentioned have come down to one thing and that is when pilots think they are the only pilots in the sky and so they should always be No.1, and always be straight in on RWY of choice, direct to final, cancel STAR speed restriction etc etc.
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Abra....
Well, it gets you going in the right direction to start with. Then a slight tweak, right or left might just be required for other traffic reasons. Even with the small heading changes you'll probably find the track is more direct than the "standard".
Back to the thread and little peeves...
It's already been mentioned, but asking for "further" Climb or descent when a crew can see either visually or on TCAS that there is conflicting traffic 1000ft above or below. Now I KNOW what you want to do, and I will help you do it as soon as it is SAFE to do so.
Asking for Climb or descent and then saying, "oh, yeah, we can see that traffic" is just a WASTE of precious R/T time. Don't do it please.
Asking for desecnt MILES before it's actually needed can be a problem. If a pilot asks for descent I assume he means NOW, and I expect him to go down NOW, unless I have said the magic words "when ready".
I have no problem with crews getting set up early for descent, it's good airmanship to be ahead of the game, but why not say, "ABC123 requesting descent in XX miles"? and give the controller a clue.
Lastly. "Only Aeroplane in the Sky syndrome". Come across these pilots daily, all ATCOs do. Usually with no R/T discipline, the a/c arrives on freq blindly transmitting over everyone else, or jumping in when an ATCO is waiting for a readback. Some Big Airlines have more of these people than others, and yes it is noticable.
time for my injection....
Rgds BEX
One thing that baffles me is why sometimes we get cleared direct to some extremely distant point on our flight plan (usually greeted with great enthusiasm of course!) only to be told two minutes later to 'turn right/left ten degrees'.
Back to the thread and little peeves...
It's already been mentioned, but asking for "further" Climb or descent when a crew can see either visually or on TCAS that there is conflicting traffic 1000ft above or below. Now I KNOW what you want to do, and I will help you do it as soon as it is SAFE to do so.
Asking for Climb or descent and then saying, "oh, yeah, we can see that traffic" is just a WASTE of precious R/T time. Don't do it please.
Asking for desecnt MILES before it's actually needed can be a problem. If a pilot asks for descent I assume he means NOW, and I expect him to go down NOW, unless I have said the magic words "when ready".
I have no problem with crews getting set up early for descent, it's good airmanship to be ahead of the game, but why not say, "ABC123 requesting descent in XX miles"? and give the controller a clue.
Lastly. "Only Aeroplane in the Sky syndrome". Come across these pilots daily, all ATCOs do. Usually with no R/T discipline, the a/c arrives on freq blindly transmitting over everyone else, or jumping in when an ATCO is waiting for a readback. Some Big Airlines have more of these people than others, and yes it is noticable.
time for my injection....
Rgds BEX
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Great topic.. so many accurate posts!.
I have worked Toronto, Geneva and now Bahrain ACC. Never in my controlling career have I heard the phrase "confirm" so often. Everytime I hear this I want to reach through the headset cord and strangle the pilot on the other end. It happens much to often, it was not like this in Canada nor in Europe. Another one that kills me is "ABC requesting descent", I give the descent then the pilot says CONFIRM that's our discretion. I freaked on a guy last night for doing this. I said if you request it you better start down now. Another one yesterday "ABC descend NOW to FL260" pilot comes back reading "ABC cleared when ready to FL260". I said.. sir that's not what I said,... now is now! Working out here has shortened my fuse, I have absolutely no patience left. The lack of frequency discipline and profesionalism here in the gulf is unreal, I tell my former collegues back in Canada about this and they don't believe me. I am not painting everyone with the same brush but it's the few who give all you pilots out here a bad name.
You will all be glad to know that the Canadian guy blasting pilots on Bahrain frequency only has another 18 shifts to go and he's going back to Canada for good !
Cheers to all!
I have worked Toronto, Geneva and now Bahrain ACC. Never in my controlling career have I heard the phrase "confirm" so often. Everytime I hear this I want to reach through the headset cord and strangle the pilot on the other end. It happens much to often, it was not like this in Canada nor in Europe. Another one that kills me is "ABC requesting descent", I give the descent then the pilot says CONFIRM that's our discretion. I freaked on a guy last night for doing this. I said if you request it you better start down now. Another one yesterday "ABC descend NOW to FL260" pilot comes back reading "ABC cleared when ready to FL260". I said.. sir that's not what I said,... now is now! Working out here has shortened my fuse, I have absolutely no patience left. The lack of frequency discipline and profesionalism here in the gulf is unreal, I tell my former collegues back in Canada about this and they don't believe me. I am not painting everyone with the same brush but it's the few who give all you pilots out here a bad name.
You will all be glad to know that the Canadian guy blasting pilots on Bahrain frequency only has another 18 shifts to go and he's going back to Canada for good !
Cheers to all!
Interesting to see some of the local differences emerging through this thread.
So we have a SA controller complaining about the verbosity of what the UK CAA mandates as an initial call, and a UK controller complaining that pilots want to climb when they can see the aircraft they're being separated against, which is standard practice almost everywhere except the UK.
(No criticism of the respondents intended, you're clearly answering the question as posed for your working environment.)
How are poor pilots supposed to cope when the rules change every time they cross an FIR boundary?
So we have a SA controller complaining about the verbosity of what the UK CAA mandates as an initial call, and a UK controller complaining that pilots want to climb when they can see the aircraft they're being separated against, which is standard practice almost everywhere except the UK.
(No criticism of the respondents intended, you're clearly answering the question as posed for your working environment.)
How are poor pilots supposed to cope when the rules change every time they cross an FIR boundary?
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My pet peeve
"XXX how long till you are ready to taxi?".
After starting is a little dance of coordinated button pressing/lever moving to get the a/c configured for departure, and it is amazing just how off putting answering that call can be. It seems to be happening more & more at certain large London airports, and will cause an incident soon.
Believe me, we'll call asap!!
"XXX how long till you are ready to taxi?".
After starting is a little dance of coordinated button pressing/lever moving to get the a/c configured for departure, and it is amazing just how off putting answering that call can be. It seems to be happening more & more at certain large London airports, and will cause an incident soon.
Believe me, we'll call asap!!
More than just an ATCO
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It used to annoy me when after clearing someone for climb or descent to an intermediate level and advising them of the traffic preventing contiuous climb/descent they still complain of a TCAS advisory or alert, whilst separation was never infringed. Even worse when they follow an alert and continue through the level.
Edited 26/06/04
Also our neighbours to the West - who think they invented ATC -
continually keeping traffic on their frequency 20 n.m. after the TOC point
Edited 26/06/04
Also our neighbours to the West - who think they invented ATC -
continually keeping traffic on their frequency 20 n.m. after the TOC point
Last edited by Lon More; 26th Jun 2004 at 19:18.