voice of safety d'telegraph8/6/04 letters
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: ltcc
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
voice of safety d'telegraph8/6/04 letters
There is a great letter in the Daily Telegraph 'Letters to the Editor' today from a David Finmore of Poole. Briefly, he has great faith in UK controllers and pilots. But, the excellent point he makes about computers for pilots and controllers is 'people make poor monitors of computers, but the flexibility of the human brain monitored by computers, immune to boredom, generates maximum safety'. Perhaps a thought for our planners before we are all deskilled in the near future.
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very fair point Kit. When there are a multitude of inputs and variables, while a computer isn't disposed to making "mistakes" as such, hom many situations have had a favourable outcome simply because of an instinctive reaction by a pilot or controller?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: SW15
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That letter in full:
Sir - Not since I perused the works of W S Gilbert have I read such an amazing piece of topsey-turveydome as the letter from David Parkinson (letters, June 7).
Having spent most of my adult life flying airliners all over the world, I know of no more reassuring embodiment of safety than the calm measured tones of British air traffic controllers, particularly when returning from the regular nightmare of near-misses that is America.
Having had the privilege of joining those controllers in their training sessions, I know my faith in their professionalism and flexibility is well placed.
Aircraft over the Atlantic are separated by 12 times the distance used over Europe, and many major fleets of relatively modern aircraft still do not have the equipment fitted to take part in that automatic system.
The failure of a fly-by-wire aircraft would only result in the loss of that aircraft, but the failure of air traffic control could result in multiple crashes over a wide area.
Aircraft manufacturers have gradually learnt that increasing automation is not the best policy. People make poor monitors of computers, but the flexibility of the human brain monitored by computers, immune to boredom, generates maximum safety.
I hope that air traffic control consultants will have the humility to learn from the relevant experience of others. Trains can be automatically controlled because they always have the intrinsically safe option of stopping. Until sky hooks are invented, aircraft and controllers do not have that option.
People with headsets, both in front of the screen and aboard the aircraft, represent the safest and most versatile combination available at present.
From:
David Finnemore, Poole, Dorset
The letter he was responding to was this:
Abandon this out of date concept
Sir - The appalling effect of a minor air-traffic control computer failure (report, June 4) highlights not so much a lack of investment in the system as a reluctance on the part of the national authorities throughout Europe to abandon an operational concept that is completely out of date.
The use of paper strips and the control of aircraft by voice, based on a radar screen and human judgment, are inefficient and anachronistic.
Senior researchers within the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) are fully aware of this and know that complete automation of the air-traffic control system is urgently required.
All of the necessary components have now been proved in operational trials and, since 1992, Eurocontrol has had a mandate from European transport ministers to lead in this area.
Air traffic over the North Atlantic has been controlled using an automated system at Prestwick since 1987. The controllers have no radar display and no direct voice contact with the aircraft.
This system successfully handled the massive wave of traffic that was turned back over the ocean on September 11, 2001. In Britain, the main rail arteries are fully automatically switched and signalled, with the signalmen acting as traffic managers.
A comparable automated system could be deployed across Europe for a fraction of the cost of current centres such as Swanwick, with a significant reduction in delays due to airspace restrictions. More efficient routings would save time and fuel, and the more effective use of computers would increase safety.
Passengers have shown their confidence in automation by boarding two-crew, twin-engined, fly-by-wire aircraft such as the Airbus A320 and Boeing 777 without hesitation. Britain\'s National Air Traffic Services and other air traffic service providers must now demonstrate that they are willing to adopt new technology and move forward for the benefit of everyone.
The person with a pen and a headset in front of a screen should be consigned to history, as was the navigator on the flight deck.
From:
David Parkinson, Air Traffic Control Systems Consultant, Guildford, Surrey
Sir - Not since I perused the works of W S Gilbert have I read such an amazing piece of topsey-turveydome as the letter from David Parkinson (letters, June 7).
Having spent most of my adult life flying airliners all over the world, I know of no more reassuring embodiment of safety than the calm measured tones of British air traffic controllers, particularly when returning from the regular nightmare of near-misses that is America.
Having had the privilege of joining those controllers in their training sessions, I know my faith in their professionalism and flexibility is well placed.
Aircraft over the Atlantic are separated by 12 times the distance used over Europe, and many major fleets of relatively modern aircraft still do not have the equipment fitted to take part in that automatic system.
The failure of a fly-by-wire aircraft would only result in the loss of that aircraft, but the failure of air traffic control could result in multiple crashes over a wide area.
Aircraft manufacturers have gradually learnt that increasing automation is not the best policy. People make poor monitors of computers, but the flexibility of the human brain monitored by computers, immune to boredom, generates maximum safety.
I hope that air traffic control consultants will have the humility to learn from the relevant experience of others. Trains can be automatically controlled because they always have the intrinsically safe option of stopping. Until sky hooks are invented, aircraft and controllers do not have that option.
People with headsets, both in front of the screen and aboard the aircraft, represent the safest and most versatile combination available at present.
From:
David Finnemore, Poole, Dorset
The letter he was responding to was this:
Abandon this out of date concept
Sir - The appalling effect of a minor air-traffic control computer failure (report, June 4) highlights not so much a lack of investment in the system as a reluctance on the part of the national authorities throughout Europe to abandon an operational concept that is completely out of date.
The use of paper strips and the control of aircraft by voice, based on a radar screen and human judgment, are inefficient and anachronistic.
Senior researchers within the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) are fully aware of this and know that complete automation of the air-traffic control system is urgently required.
All of the necessary components have now been proved in operational trials and, since 1992, Eurocontrol has had a mandate from European transport ministers to lead in this area.
Air traffic over the North Atlantic has been controlled using an automated system at Prestwick since 1987. The controllers have no radar display and no direct voice contact with the aircraft.
This system successfully handled the massive wave of traffic that was turned back over the ocean on September 11, 2001. In Britain, the main rail arteries are fully automatically switched and signalled, with the signalmen acting as traffic managers.
A comparable automated system could be deployed across Europe for a fraction of the cost of current centres such as Swanwick, with a significant reduction in delays due to airspace restrictions. More efficient routings would save time and fuel, and the more effective use of computers would increase safety.
Passengers have shown their confidence in automation by boarding two-crew, twin-engined, fly-by-wire aircraft such as the Airbus A320 and Boeing 777 without hesitation. Britain\'s National Air Traffic Services and other air traffic service providers must now demonstrate that they are willing to adopt new technology and move forward for the benefit of everyone.
The person with a pen and a headset in front of a screen should be consigned to history, as was the navigator on the flight deck.
From:
David Parkinson, Air Traffic Control Systems Consultant, Guildford, Surrey
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: EGLL
Posts: 493
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would like to know what qualifications this person has to be an "Air Traffic Control Consultant"
Firstly, a/c over the atlantic can be controlled with no radar, it's called procedural control.
Secondly, a/c arriving and departing into a busy TMA cannot at the moment be controlled by a computer because of the many variable situations which may arise, such as emergiencies. I have complete faith in the system at the moment and would not like to fly into any busy airport with a computer doing all the controlling.
Unfortunately, Eurocontrol are wrong in their estimation of the current system. If I was there then I would tell them. All the people on the team to assess this are not, either qualified to do so, or have been out of the operational side of the business for too long, and cannot do the job now.
The pen and strip are the best, with radar. The first thing to break down will be the computer.
Lastly, if the system works well then why change it. There are more important things to look at for safety reasons. I'm all for high technology both in a/c and atc but without the human element then it would be dangerous.
Would you fly from a to b with no pilot or atco. I wouldn't, and it would be a very brave person to say they would.
ILS 119.5
Firstly, a/c over the atlantic can be controlled with no radar, it's called procedural control.
Secondly, a/c arriving and departing into a busy TMA cannot at the moment be controlled by a computer because of the many variable situations which may arise, such as emergiencies. I have complete faith in the system at the moment and would not like to fly into any busy airport with a computer doing all the controlling.
Unfortunately, Eurocontrol are wrong in their estimation of the current system. If I was there then I would tell them. All the people on the team to assess this are not, either qualified to do so, or have been out of the operational side of the business for too long, and cannot do the job now.
The pen and strip are the best, with radar. The first thing to break down will be the computer.
Lastly, if the system works well then why change it. There are more important things to look at for safety reasons. I'm all for high technology both in a/c and atc but without the human element then it would be dangerous.
Would you fly from a to b with no pilot or atco. I wouldn't, and it would be a very brave person to say they would.
ILS 119.5
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Road to Nowhere
Posts: 1,023
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ILS 119.5, I believe you may be misquoting Mr Parkinson; he actually describes himself as an
Which phrase is probably closer to 'computer salesman' than 'Air Traffic Controller'. I am extremely suspicious of his motives for writing to the Telegraph (drumming up business perhaps?).
That said, I believe the points you make are all valid. Oh, and yes, Bern Oulli, stupid covers it!
STH
Air Traffic Control Systems Consultant
That said, I believe the points you make are all valid. Oh, and yes, Bern Oulli, stupid covers it!
STH
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California USA
Posts: 719
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having spent most of my adult life flying airliners all over the world, I know of no more reassuring embodiment of safety than the calm measured tones of British air traffic controllers, particularly when returning from the regular nightmare of near-misses that is America.
Having spent most of my adult life flying military transports around the world and working in a tower cab or approach control, I've got to wonder: is this "nightmare" occurring because I'm not using "calm, measured tones?" I mean, I think my tones are "calm" and "measured..." What's more, I'm not seeing any near-misses. Could it be that my failure to ensure the use of "calm, measured tones" makes it SEEM like I'm running them together?Help me understand!
Mr Parkinson's description of ATC over the Atlantic demonstrates his complete lack of appreciation of the task involved, both in such an environment and in domestic airspace.
To say that "passengers have shown their confidence in automation by boarding two-crew, twin-engined, fly-by-wire aircraft such as the Airbus A320 and Boeing 777 without hesitation" is patent nonsense. Try asking the passengers why they have decided to fly on those aircraft - I suspect most would just say that they never gave it a thought and they had no idea what type of aircraft would be used on that route.
To say that "passengers have shown their confidence in automation by boarding two-crew, twin-engined, fly-by-wire aircraft such as the Airbus A320 and Boeing 777 without hesitation" is patent nonsense. Try asking the passengers why they have decided to fly on those aircraft - I suspect most would just say that they never gave it a thought and they had no idea what type of aircraft would be used on that route.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 43° 40' 47" , -80° 25' 28"
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no debate regarding the role humans and computers should play - humans should always play the active role in order to maintain the situation awareness required to deal with the 'unusual' events. It is a point that some of the more enlightened Human Factors boffins at Hurn have always been trying to make.
However, the technologists (and society is indirectly ruled by them because it is easier for them to make their (financial) point to the accountants) insist that we design out the fallability of humans by automating. Some of the Human Factors bods are complicit in this 'techno-centric' view because they just see an interface as an interface and don't consider the impact on how well the controller can do their job in all circumstances, including extremis.
Well said David Finnemore, and David Parkinson - perhaps you'd like to monitor the operation of an automated car and then step in to save the day when it something goes wrong.
Rant over
However, the technologists (and society is indirectly ruled by them because it is easier for them to make their (financial) point to the accountants) insist that we design out the fallability of humans by automating. Some of the Human Factors bods are complicit in this 'techno-centric' view because they just see an interface as an interface and don't consider the impact on how well the controller can do their job in all circumstances, including extremis.
Well said David Finnemore, and David Parkinson - perhaps you'd like to monitor the operation of an automated car and then step in to save the day when it something goes wrong.
Rant over
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Notwithstanding the other points, our "Air traffic Control Systems Consultant" has weird logic. We had major traffic delays because the computer fell over and we had to revert to a well tried and tested but lower capacity paper and pen system. Nobody crashed.
The answer to this situation apparently is a more complicated computer and no back up at all. That would be enough to keep me on the ground I can tell you!
I am a mere PPL/IMC with 35 years in IT and telecomms.
The answer to this situation apparently is a more complicated computer and no back up at all. That would be enough to keep me on the ground I can tell you!
I am a mere PPL/IMC with 35 years in IT and telecomms.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southampton,hampshire,england
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Computer Intelligence
Well I wish you could have shared the joys of an afternoon at Swanwick.
The super brain mega-computer started to allocate 7000 transponder codes to lots of pending flight plans. The system has a feature called "auto-DM" which basically means that when an aircraft gets airborne and is showing the assigned code the computer will recognise the code and automatically activate the flight plan, and also attach the callsign label to the target.
There are safety parameters built in, but not against the set of circumstances that occurred to-day. Whenever an aircraft showing a 7000 code [ correctly that is!] flew close to an airfield that had one of these peculiar 7000 codes allocated to a pending flight plan.........you've guessed.... plan activates and little VFR Cessna wears SSR label of some airliner or other; not only that but every down-line sector gets a strip on an aircraft that hasn't taken off. Human skills saved the day!!!!!!
The super brain mega-computer started to allocate 7000 transponder codes to lots of pending flight plans. The system has a feature called "auto-DM" which basically means that when an aircraft gets airborne and is showing the assigned code the computer will recognise the code and automatically activate the flight plan, and also attach the callsign label to the target.
There are safety parameters built in, but not against the set of circumstances that occurred to-day. Whenever an aircraft showing a 7000 code [ correctly that is!] flew close to an airfield that had one of these peculiar 7000 codes allocated to a pending flight plan.........you've guessed.... plan activates and little VFR Cessna wears SSR label of some airliner or other; not only that but every down-line sector gets a strip on an aircraft that hasn't taken off. Human skills saved the day!!!!!!
PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,442
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not only that Cessna but every other 7000 code throughout the country. There were about 100 'BRT867's for a while .... what stupid logic to allocate the code 7000 when NAS is unable to allocate an SSR code due to saturation 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southampton,hampshire,england
Posts: 869
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10W
Yep...one of mine, BRT86A I recall, activated out of EGGD when VFR chap flew past up the Severn......as the a/c was so low and slow we thought he was going "down".....heartbeat recovered eventually. Not so funny was the lost B732,,,,,TAC asks where is this plane....I've got the strip but can't see it anywhere.....follows 30 seconds of 120% effort.....relax buddy!.....just left the stand at EIDW....not airborne yet.....I wanna tea-break....shuddup and gedonwithit!
