ATCO 2 vs ATCO 1 LACC Bitch Fest :-) (but NOT started by AlanM !!)
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whats an AAVA! not being in NATS and assuming that their T&Cs are in line with others in the group then there will be no overtime or similar-you might get a day off in lieu
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P7
Good "point". Overtime keeps Swanwick operational [barely]. Supervisors like to keep a little validation going to take advantage of the "dosh", can't leave all the money for the troops can they? We even have previously office-bound controllers doing a bit.....in fact it is abso-bl??dy-lutely incredible where they have all come from since the AAVA's [overtime] appeared. There are so many ATCO 1's doing overtime that they actually out-number the ATCO 2's [the normal operational controller grade at Swanwick]. Methinks that the union should be pushing for a re-grade to ATCO 1 for all!////////Anyway the best of luck to all at EGHH, I think you're about to learn what market forces are; strike while the iron is hot.
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atco1s outnumber 2s? erm i don't think so my friend - though your point about office bods doing AAVAs is a valid one -better still, they can do every weekend as they aren't subject to fatugue rules.
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sony backhander
I was doing sector 23 and my planner was a watch supervisor on O/T. I moved to sector 6+9 and my planner was another ATCO 1 on O/T. Next I was planner on 5+8 and the "tac" was an ATCO 1 who does the odd spell on the scope to keep his hand in. Last month we had two limited-validation ATCO 1's on O/T who could only work in one seat and became self-relieving. I know this is true coz I woz there. They have the advantage of being able to avoid burn-out by returning to their crossword puzzles and "day non-jobs" at regular intervals ......laughing all the way to the bank!
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055166K
That explains a lot - cheers 
(TG inbounds still FL160 north of Lyneham 
)
I was doing sector 23 and my planner was a watch supervisor on O/T. I moved to sector 6+9 and my planner was another ATCO 1 on O/T. Next I was planner on 5+8 and the "tac" was an ATCO 1 who does the odd spell on the scope to keep his hand in.
(TG inbounds still FL160 north of Lyneham )
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 6th Jun 2004 at 19:24.
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Numpo-Nigit
This is not a job that can be done part-time as a kind of hobby, nor should it be viewed as a source of pin-money[overtime]. In order to protect the integrity and high professional standards that are needed to move all the metal, the task should be left to the finely-honed close-knit team of highly-efficient experts. If one wants promotion and a desk job then one should burn the bridges and stick to one's desk.////// Bournemouth colleagues will realise that I haven't a clue how to start a thread so apologies!! A relevant point is that controllers must realise their worth and be prepared to exercise some muscle....if overtime is needed to cover short-term staff shortage then "make hay while the sun shines".
055166K
You say "This is not a job that can be done part-time as a kind of hobby, nor should it be viewed as a source of pin-money[overtime]. In order to protect the integrity and high professional standards that are needed to move all the metal, the task should be left to the finely-honed close-knit team of highly-efficient experts. If one wants promotion and a desk job then one should burn the bridges and stick to one's desk"
This is an interesting statement which opens all kinds of issues.
1. What makes you think that promotion, or the lack of it, changes anybody's status as a "highly-efficient expert"? Indeed, one of the stated requirements of all recent ATCO1 promotion panels at NERC has been the retention (or acquisition and retention) of T/P qualifications.
2. You make no comment on the significant numbers of ATCO2s who are using the AAVA scheme "as a source of pin money". Both groups are equally laudable or blameworthy depending on your individual view of the use of overtime to keep the system running.
3. As regards the job being "done part-time as a kind of hobby", I think it should be made completely clear that all licensed controllers are subject to the same rules and standards. Or, perhaps, you are implying some flaws within the LCE scheme??? If you seriously believe that somebody is working without "high professional standards" then, regardless of their grade, you should make your concerns known through the correct channels.
Perhaps I detect just a hint of sour grapes, as you have neither been promoted, nor joined the AAVA gravy-train.
NN
ps apologies to the EGHH guys - I AM watching with interest
You say "This is not a job that can be done part-time as a kind of hobby, nor should it be viewed as a source of pin-money[overtime]. In order to protect the integrity and high professional standards that are needed to move all the metal, the task should be left to the finely-honed close-knit team of highly-efficient experts. If one wants promotion and a desk job then one should burn the bridges and stick to one's desk"
This is an interesting statement which opens all kinds of issues.
1. What makes you think that promotion, or the lack of it, changes anybody's status as a "highly-efficient expert"? Indeed, one of the stated requirements of all recent ATCO1 promotion panels at NERC has been the retention (or acquisition and retention) of T/P qualifications.
2. You make no comment on the significant numbers of ATCO2s who are using the AAVA scheme "as a source of pin money". Both groups are equally laudable or blameworthy depending on your individual view of the use of overtime to keep the system running.
3. As regards the job being "done part-time as a kind of hobby", I think it should be made completely clear that all licensed controllers are subject to the same rules and standards. Or, perhaps, you are implying some flaws within the LCE scheme??? If you seriously believe that somebody is working without "high professional standards" then, regardless of their grade, you should make your concerns known through the correct channels.
Perhaps I detect just a hint of sour grapes, as you have neither been promoted, nor joined the AAVA gravy-train.
NN
ps apologies to the EGHH guys - I AM watching with interest
055166k,
With due deference to the situation at EGHH which started this thread, I feel that you ned to realize the situation at LACC that you are working under. Indeed there are some ATCO 1's that are helping out with resolving the staffing situation at LACC. For instance on LAG West there is a severe shortage of ATCO 2's who can do the job, preferring to take the easy life on North and East. This means that it falls to management [ATCO 1's and above] to attempt to ameliorate the situation. These company minded personnel therefore are left with no option but to agree to do the AAVA's on West to help out the company. This is why you find ATCO 1's working as planners on West. It is not for the money but to help NATS out of a problem of staffing. It could be argued that were the OJTI's more successful in training the newcomers then the need for these philanthropic ATCO 1's to do overtime would be reduced.
055161k the answer is within your own hands!!! Train the replacements!!!
With due deference to the situation at EGHH which started this thread, I feel that you ned to realize the situation at LACC that you are working under. Indeed there are some ATCO 1's that are helping out with resolving the staffing situation at LACC. For instance on LAG West there is a severe shortage of ATCO 2's who can do the job, preferring to take the easy life on North and East. This means that it falls to management [ATCO 1's and above] to attempt to ameliorate the situation. These company minded personnel therefore are left with no option but to agree to do the AAVA's on West to help out the company. This is why you find ATCO 1's working as planners on West. It is not for the money but to help NATS out of a problem of staffing. It could be argued that were the OJTI's more successful in training the newcomers then the need for these philanthropic ATCO 1's to do overtime would be reduced.
055161k the answer is within your own hands!!! Train the replacements!!!
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63000 Triple Zilch
Whilst I am a "LATCC Reject", I feel it is unfair of you to criticise the OJTIs at LACC. I didn't have the best time of it there, and it could be said that my training did not match up to the latest OJTI training manual. However, I do not feel that I was chopped for the sake of it, or that my mentors could not be bothered. My opinion is that the OJTIs at LACC (and LTCC) are being given too much of a training burden to carry, and that if that burden was reduced, then they would be able to provide the training that is required.
Your comments are ill placed. The responsibility lies with those making the plans, not with the OJTIs. When I left West Drayton, I discovered that the planned date for my validation was two months before my training started! OJTIs were (I cannot comment on the current situation, although I hear it has improved) not totally responsible for the chop rate at that time. I have said that if fewer trainees were sent to LACC and LTCC, reducing the training burden on those units, then there is a good chance that we would see an increased validation rate.
As you can see from my profile, I am now a valid Manchester ATCO, the reason I've validated up north is not due to lower traffic levels, anyone with access to the NATS intranet will know that. I honestly believe that it is as a result of the reduced training burden at this unit allowing OJTIs to give trainees the amount of time they need and DESERVE to get valid.
I shall now duck my head and await the incoming comments from "Down South"
Respectfully yours
DTHP
Whilst I am a "LATCC Reject", I feel it is unfair of you to criticise the OJTIs at LACC. I didn't have the best time of it there, and it could be said that my training did not match up to the latest OJTI training manual. However, I do not feel that I was chopped for the sake of it, or that my mentors could not be bothered. My opinion is that the OJTIs at LACC (and LTCC) are being given too much of a training burden to carry, and that if that burden was reduced, then they would be able to provide the training that is required.
Your comments are ill placed. The responsibility lies with those making the plans, not with the OJTIs. When I left West Drayton, I discovered that the planned date for my validation was two months before my training started! OJTIs were (I cannot comment on the current situation, although I hear it has improved) not totally responsible for the chop rate at that time. I have said that if fewer trainees were sent to LACC and LTCC, reducing the training burden on those units, then there is a good chance that we would see an increased validation rate.
As you can see from my profile, I am now a valid Manchester ATCO, the reason I've validated up north is not due to lower traffic levels, anyone with access to the NATS intranet will know that. I honestly believe that it is as a result of the reduced training burden at this unit allowing OJTIs to give trainees the amount of time they need and DESERVE to get valid.
I shall now duck my head and await the incoming comments from "Down South"
Respectfully yours
DTHP
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63000///Numpo=Nigit
63000, I hope you get a company medal or something. I am humbled by your response. Remember..."Jack-of-all-trades, master of none!
Numpo, flaws in the LCE scheme? Surely not! I am sure the ATCO 2 LCE has no reservation about giving a full and fair appraisal to the ATCO 1 who may not only be his/her Local Area Supervisor but also Reporting Officer or even Watch Supervisor. No problem with ATCO 2's doing Overtime......the Tactical and Planner task is described as an ATCO 2 level post; if such a large number of ATCO 1 supervisory/managerial staff are required to run the street-level operational system then I suggest the job demands a re-grade, shared responsibility should lead to equality.
DTHP, you are not a "LATCC Reject", that phrase has no meaning in my opinion...you are more likely a victim of circumstance/experimentation/operational deficiency and a whole raft of associated short-comings. It is YOU who was let down, not the other way round.
Numpo, flaws in the LCE scheme? Surely not! I am sure the ATCO 2 LCE has no reservation about giving a full and fair appraisal to the ATCO 1 who may not only be his/her Local Area Supervisor but also Reporting Officer or even Watch Supervisor. No problem with ATCO 2's doing Overtime......the Tactical and Planner task is described as an ATCO 2 level post; if such a large number of ATCO 1 supervisory/managerial staff are required to run the street-level operational system then I suggest the job demands a re-grade, shared responsibility should lead to equality.
DTHP, you are not a "LATCC Reject", that phrase has no meaning in my opinion...you are more likely a victim of circumstance/experimentation/operational deficiency and a whole raft of associated short-comings. It is YOU who was let down, not the other way round.
More than just an ATCO
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PPRuNe Radar
Again a "whinging Pom" thread. Maybe better to jetblast
Is there no union involvement in dialogues with management, or do they just roll over to have their stomachs tickled? I can remember this bickering back when it was Min. of Av. There seems to be a strong masochistic trait (Look how badly we, thre world's best, are treated) involved.
Whilst the situation at Maastricht UAC was not the best; thanks to a small kernel of dedicated Union Reps. the worst of management's excesses were tempered.
The same is true at most other units I visited over the years
Lon More ( in Flame proof mode
Here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger
Again a "whinging Pom" thread. Maybe better to jetblast
Is there no union involvement in dialogues with management, or do they just roll over to have their stomachs tickled? I can remember this bickering back when it was Min. of Av. There seems to be a strong masochistic trait (Look how badly we, thre world's best, are treated) involved.
Whilst the situation at Maastricht UAC was not the best; thanks to a small kernel of dedicated Union Reps. the worst of management's excesses were tempered.
The same is true at most other units I visited over the years
Lon More ( in Flame proof mode
Here before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger
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He'd never cut it though. Them TC boys are a bunch of nancy's.
250knots or less and 3 miles separation. easy life.
Come anywhere near here and I'll pull yer hair, bitch.
ha ha ha ha ha this is great
250knots or less and 3 miles separation. easy life.
Come anywhere near here and I'll pull yer hair, bitch.
ha ha ha ha ha this is great