Question Re Access Scottish and Swanwick ATC
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: uk
Question Re Access Scottish and Swanwick ATC
Does anybody know where I could get permission to undertake a tour of Scottish ATC at PWK or Swanwick ?
I am undertaking an article on ATC for a magzine....!
Any assistance from a based ATCO much appreciated .
TIA
I am undertaking an article on ATC for a magzine....!
Any assistance from a based ATCO much appreciated .
TIA
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,919
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
Hmmmm.............
And will your article be along these lines?
Remeber typing that in this thread?
Forgive me if I seem a little cynical.
And will your article be along these lines?
Dont worry keep cramming 'em in and we will soon have a mid- air over London !
Forgive me if I seem a little cynical.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,578
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From: uk
Hi Jericho
I did indeed suggest that there may well be mid air over London,
a cynical comment made myself when Stansted expansion was announced and based on the undoubted "commercial" pressures that are forcing more and more traffic into the South East.......
Surely you would concede that Stansted could have been put anywhere in the UK, 80% of passengers are being sucked in from other regions, so why on earth add to the inherent pressures by positioning the airport in the South East ?
..that however is NOT the fault of NATS or the hard pressed air traffic cntrollers who simply have to put up with what is thrown at them. I certainly was not critical of any LATCC controller.
I am not against expansion in the South East, I do feel that we should have had one major airport with 4 runways in one place, with room for further expansion.
Instead of one major airport like Eg Frankfurt we now have a wide range of airports dispersed in a relativly small area, with crossing traffic at or about 8000-20,000 ft, that is a dangerous mix....!
My point was made in terms of Government Ministers who gleefully make these decisions who will then ring there hands and blame somebody else if something were to go wrong....
If you are going to quote me please do quote the full facts and not selected items in isolation......
touche....
I did indeed suggest that there may well be mid air over London,
a cynical comment made myself when Stansted expansion was announced and based on the undoubted "commercial" pressures that are forcing more and more traffic into the South East.......
Surely you would concede that Stansted could have been put anywhere in the UK, 80% of passengers are being sucked in from other regions, so why on earth add to the inherent pressures by positioning the airport in the South East ?
..that however is NOT the fault of NATS or the hard pressed air traffic cntrollers who simply have to put up with what is thrown at them. I certainly was not critical of any LATCC controller.
I am not against expansion in the South East, I do feel that we should have had one major airport with 4 runways in one place, with room for further expansion.
Instead of one major airport like Eg Frankfurt we now have a wide range of airports dispersed in a relativly small area, with crossing traffic at or about 8000-20,000 ft, that is a dangerous mix....!
My point was made in terms of Government Ministers who gleefully make these decisions who will then ring there hands and blame somebody else if something were to go wrong....
If you are going to quote me please do quote the full facts and not selected items in isolation......
touche....
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,086
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From: Greystation
Bagso:
ok then, how about taking a leaf out of your own book.
where is your evidence that this is happenning? Only a finite number of a/c can fly in and out of the South-East, and when demand is high, flow control protects the sectors. Is this just your media hype creeping in at the start of your post?
Yes it could, but Essex has proven its worth due to the amount of traffic that is using it - if it was ill-placed, then there just wouldn't be many flights from there.
errr, no we don't "put up with what is thrown at us", if we don't like what we see, we learn, and occasionally supply facts causing an investigation to make things better in the future. As for other organisations, see the thread about Bournemouth controllers.
I would count 5 major airports - Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted, Luton and London City. Now try cramming all their traffic into one airport in a day. How safe can making FIVE a/c a minute land at the same place (within 2 or 3 miles of each other) at the same time rather than spreading them out over the skies and eliminating the bunching and congestion of one area! Crossing tracks at 8000' to 20000'? Thats what radar is for, and the use of 13 levels for the traffic in your example rather than them all being at 8000' trying to land together - very safe.
My "assistance" is take Radar's advice, contact the press office, thats what it is there for. If they say 'no' then maybe they know a reason we don't, so why should we put our jobs on the line in helping?
My advice is to learn more about what you are writing about and learn the FULL facts and quote them accordingly, then maybe for once a properly balanced report/article will be read that actually gets some praise - wouldn't that be nice
If you are going to quote me please do quote the full facts and not selected items in isolation......
based on the undoubted "commercial" pressures that are forcing more and more traffic into the South East.......
Surely you would concede that Stansted could have been put anywhere in the UK, 80% of passengers are being sucked in from other regions, so why on earth add to the inherent pressures by positioning the airport in the South East ?
..that however is NOT the fault of NATS or the hard pressed air traffic cntrollers who simply have to put up with what is thrown at them. I certainly was not critical of any LATCC controller.
I am not against expansion in the South East, I do feel that we should have had one major airport with 4 runways in one place, with room for further expansion. Instead of one major airport like Eg Frankfurt we now have a wide range of airports dispersed in a relativly small area, with crossing traffic at or about 8000-20,000 ft, that is a dangerous mix....!
My "assistance" is take Radar's advice, contact the press office, thats what it is there for. If they say 'no' then maybe they know a reason we don't, so why should we put our jobs on the line in helping?
My advice is to learn more about what you are writing about and learn the FULL facts and quote them accordingly, then maybe for once a properly balanced report/article will be read that actually gets some praise - wouldn't that be nice
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
Perhaps I was a little too subtle for you. As Gonzo has asked you, what magazine are you preparing your article for? And what exactly is the focus of the article? Unfortunately having read some of your previous contributions, I get the feeling that perhaps it's not going to be as balanced as it could be. Or will it be focused around your normal flag wave of expansion of Manchester?
5miles has starded the ball rolling with an excellent description of the London TMA. It's not "a dangerous mix". Go back and read over some of your previous posts. Seems to be an underlying sensationalist "the chances of a major smack up over London loom ever nearer it seems" or "an aircrash waiting to happen if ever there was one" (all your words again! Or am I quoting out of context again? Would you like the dates and threads these came from!)
Touche?! Yeah right.
And yes, I have too much time on my hands...............
5miles has starded the ball rolling with an excellent description of the London TMA. It's not "a dangerous mix". Go back and read over some of your previous posts. Seems to be an underlying sensationalist "the chances of a major smack up over London loom ever nearer it seems" or "an aircrash waiting to happen if ever there was one" (all your words again! Or am I quoting out of context again? Would you like the dates and threads these came from!)
Touche?! Yeah right.
And yes, I have too much time on my hands...............
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,086
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From: Greystation
For once in my life I have checked my PM's. It gauls me that someone can start a thread and be challenged, only to run into hiding and then PM someone just what they think, and avoid the public domain. I'm not going to post the full message, that would just be falling into childish behavior however I'll post a few points raised.
Firstly Bagso, you have attacked me on points that I didn't even raise.
Gonzo asked what magazine, not being familiar with Spotter mags, I don't quite understand your reply, someone else might. You say its for a Spotters mag, Radio Magazine (?), I take it from your comments its based in Manchester. Was that too hard to post when asked? Press do ATC a huge injustice many times, so forgive me and my fellow controllers for being a little forward in asking, but we are not going to contribute to another tabloid/broadsheet bashing.
You go on to say that you weren't having a go at ATCO's, that you were actually defending them. I personally find no defence in any that you have said here, or have said previous (like a saddo, I too have delved into the searches to find out about you).
Your comment about "based on the commercial pressures that are forcing more and more traffic into the south-east" is admitted to being your own personal opinion. Companies will only expand further out if they are going to gain from it, so if shuttling pax to the major hub is cheaper, thats what they will do.
To answer the question "if all the stacks are full and full flow control is in operation what happens then?", well we all get to destination safely. The 'finite' room is protected, and our operations cope admirably and eventually everyone gets where they want, normally without too much a delay, because at present demand doesn't last 24 hrs.
You originally remarked Stansted could have been put anywhere in the UK, to which I answered Essex proved its worth. You now comment that without Ryanair growth has been minimal. Err, you answered my arguement, RYR saw the potential of Stansted and have used it to great effect boosting Stansted's movements, I very much doubt that somewhere further away from London would have proven such a great venture. You also forget that Easy operate a good schedule from Stansted too, and FedEx moved there along with a few other cargo's due to its appeal.
You mention that the government got 'cold feet' in selling off NATS due to a number of near miss stories and that they hadn't listened to us saying "bad idea, scrap that". I agree that they didn't listen to us, its still a bad idea, BUT THEY STILL DID IT. NATS has been privatised in part (49%) for several years now.
I believe 5 airports are better than one huge airport due to the fact the a/c all exit the airspace at different levels at different points (safety issue), and don't need extensive streaming.
In the jouralistic world, comments raised can be taken out of context and written to vindicate rather than abdicate. They do not get proof reading from any contributer, and can very quickly make a good situation look bad. If I spoke to the press and my company found out, I would be sacked. End of.
You had 3 quick replies from ATCO's (one of them a moderator) that were inquisitive or closed, and you came back all defensive still not identifying yourself. I then quizzed you and you resorted to hiding from the public domain. If you really want help then I suggest you move on from PM'ing slightly insulting and defensive replies, and start contributing "full facts and not selected items in isolation", then you might get the replies you want.
Firstly Bagso, you have attacked me on points that I didn't even raise.
Gonzo asked what magazine, not being familiar with Spotter mags, I don't quite understand your reply, someone else might. You say its for a Spotters mag, Radio Magazine (?), I take it from your comments its based in Manchester. Was that too hard to post when asked? Press do ATC a huge injustice many times, so forgive me and my fellow controllers for being a little forward in asking, but we are not going to contribute to another tabloid/broadsheet bashing.
You go on to say that you weren't having a go at ATCO's, that you were actually defending them. I personally find no defence in any that you have said here, or have said previous (like a saddo, I too have delved into the searches to find out about you).
Your comment about "based on the commercial pressures that are forcing more and more traffic into the south-east" is admitted to being your own personal opinion. Companies will only expand further out if they are going to gain from it, so if shuttling pax to the major hub is cheaper, thats what they will do.
To answer the question "if all the stacks are full and full flow control is in operation what happens then?", well we all get to destination safely. The 'finite' room is protected, and our operations cope admirably and eventually everyone gets where they want, normally without too much a delay, because at present demand doesn't last 24 hrs.
You originally remarked Stansted could have been put anywhere in the UK, to which I answered Essex proved its worth. You now comment that without Ryanair growth has been minimal. Err, you answered my arguement, RYR saw the potential of Stansted and have used it to great effect boosting Stansted's movements, I very much doubt that somewhere further away from London would have proven such a great venture. You also forget that Easy operate a good schedule from Stansted too, and FedEx moved there along with a few other cargo's due to its appeal.
You mention that the government got 'cold feet' in selling off NATS due to a number of near miss stories and that they hadn't listened to us saying "bad idea, scrap that". I agree that they didn't listen to us, its still a bad idea, BUT THEY STILL DID IT. NATS has been privatised in part (49%) for several years now.
I believe 5 airports are better than one huge airport due to the fact the a/c all exit the airspace at different levels at different points (safety issue), and don't need extensive streaming.
In the jouralistic world, comments raised can be taken out of context and written to vindicate rather than abdicate. They do not get proof reading from any contributer, and can very quickly make a good situation look bad. If I spoke to the press and my company found out, I would be sacked. End of.
You had 3 quick replies from ATCO's (one of them a moderator) that were inquisitive or closed, and you came back all defensive still not identifying yourself. I then quizzed you and you resorted to hiding from the public domain. If you really want help then I suggest you move on from PM'ing slightly insulting and defensive replies, and start contributing "full facts and not selected items in isolation", then you might get the replies you want.
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,919
Likes: 0
From: This is the internet FFS.........
5milesbaby, check you PMs again 
Bagso, I've just checked with 5miles, and you sent him the exact same PM you sent me (which I replied to explaining the situation, but obviously you don't have the decency to acknowledge). Christ, you must be a lazy piece of work.
Bagso, I've just checked with 5miles, and you sent him the exact same PM you sent me (which I replied to explaining the situation, but obviously you don't have the decency to acknowledge). Christ, you must be a lazy piece of work.
Last edited by Jerricho; 16th June 2004 at 21:06.
