finningley ATC
niknak
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I am told that the primary radar source is a new gizmo developed by a UK company originally on behalf of the MOD, but being sold to civilian operators.
The basic concept is that it allows the primary signal to be piped anywhere in the UK, (in this case from Waddington to Liverpool), regardless of the position of the primary radar head, with no degradation of the primary signal.
SSR for Finningly will come from Scampton.
Not quite the same as Norwich, Yellowplane - the MOD pay Norwich for 2 atcos to operate a console at Coltishall Mon - Fri, 0900 to 1800, due to the proximity of the 2 airfieleds.
Class G airspace initially, but a bid is already in for class D.
I don't know if they've put in a bid for an incident yet, although it will be ineviatable if Buzzerfish works there in any capacity.
The basic concept is that it allows the primary signal to be piped anywhere in the UK, (in this case from Waddington to Liverpool), regardless of the position of the primary radar head, with no degradation of the primary signal.
SSR for Finningly will come from Scampton.
Not quite the same as Norwich, Yellowplane - the MOD pay Norwich for 2 atcos to operate a console at Coltishall Mon - Fri, 0900 to 1800, due to the proximity of the 2 airfieleds.
Class G airspace initially, but a bid is already in for class D.
I don't know if they've put in a bid for an incident yet, although it will be ineviatable if Buzzerfish works there in any capacity.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Interesting!
To be completely cynical about this:
Primary radar from Waddo which is about 20 miles away. ILS turns in about 10 miles finals at, say 2000ft, so therefore about 30 miles from the radar head.
Base of cover?
Oh and isnt it between the 2 busiest pieces of unregulated airspace with fast and low military transits between the Vale of York AIAA and Lincs AIAA.
Procedural Control!!!!!!?
Don't you need a minimum number of movements to qualify for Class D zones?
Who did the safety management on that one?
I wouldn't touch it with yours!
To be completely cynical about this:
Primary radar from Waddo which is about 20 miles away. ILS turns in about 10 miles finals at, say 2000ft, so therefore about 30 miles from the radar head.
Base of cover?
Oh and isnt it between the 2 busiest pieces of unregulated airspace with fast and low military transits between the Vale of York AIAA and Lincs AIAA.
Procedural Control!!!!!!?
Don't you need a minimum number of movements to qualify for Class D zones?
Who did the safety management on that one?
I wouldn't touch it with yours!
Join Date: Jul 2002
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watchman
could not agree more, do not think SRG will allow remote primary from what is nearly 30 miles away, also remote R/T from EGGP, and as for getting class D just because you open an airport that might attract some flights!
could not agree more, do not think SRG will allow remote primary from what is nearly 30 miles away, also remote R/T from EGGP, and as for getting class D just because you open an airport that might attract some flights!
Join Date: Dec 2001
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I presume that if the new Finningley people are going to be paid "at least the market rate" then the current Liverpool people can expect a substantial pay rise. Judging by the pay quoted a previous Liverpool advert they are payed well below the market rate.
I cant see anything wrong with remote RT using the technology available today, isnt it already widely used elsewhere?
I also presume that a flight check or evalution will have to be carried out on the Waddington primary and Scampton secondary beforehand. As long as the results satisfy SRG then why not?
Wouldn't it be easier though to provide the radar service from Waddington? Dont Waddington provide the LARS sevice in that area? You have ATCO's there who have the benefit of local knowledge etc and it will be one less agency in the loop when it comes to coordination.
I cant see anything wrong with remote RT using the technology available today, isnt it already widely used elsewhere?
I also presume that a flight check or evalution will have to be carried out on the Waddington primary and Scampton secondary beforehand. As long as the results satisfy SRG then why not?
Wouldn't it be easier though to provide the radar service from Waddington? Dont Waddington provide the LARS sevice in that area? You have ATCO's there who have the benefit of local knowledge etc and it will be one less agency in the loop when it comes to coordination.
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Dont Waddington provide the LARS sevice in that area? You have ATCO's there who have the benefit of local knowledge etc and it will be one less agency in the loop when it comes to coordination.
Can - worms - open!
Join Date: Oct 1999
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Unlike Norwich where you can actually commute between the two, thereby making it viable to have people do both, this suggestion would require sufficient radar staff to remain at Waddington for the entire shift - making them unavailable for tower. (It aint a short hop down the road).
The number you'd have to employ on this basis (due to Scratcoh) would make it totally impossible to finance or indeed staff!
As one door closes - another slams in your face
The number you'd have to employ on this basis (due to Scratcoh) would make it totally impossible to finance or indeed staff!
As one door closes - another slams in your face
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Chilli Monster:
St Mawgan? (OK, not licensed, but plenty Brymon/Ryanair etc)
Inverness? (approach service from Lossie)
Maybe can-openers haven't reached that far yet
Unlicensed military ATCO's, using military phraseology and procedures, providing an Approach Control service to a licensed Civil Airport. Can - worms - open!
Inverness? (approach service from Lossie)
Maybe can-openers haven't reached that far yet
Join Date: Dec 2001
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CM
So whats your solution?
Would they employ less people if they did it from Liverpool?
They may be of some use if they were dual valid at Liverpool but no use for twr at Finningley.
So whats your solution?
Would they employ less people if they did it from Liverpool?
They may be of some use if they were dual valid at Liverpool but no use for twr at Finningley.
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Royman
You just answered your own question.
NorthSouth
St Mawgan & Plenty - sorry, all the times I've operated into there those two words just don't go together. Anyway, as a Military Airfield operated under Military regulations it doesn't fall into the criteria of the statement.
Inverness - Do Lossiemouth provide 'Approach Control' or do they render 'radar assistance' to Inverness? The two are different.
Would they employ less people if they did it from Liverpool?
They may be of some use if they were dual valid at Liverpool
They may be of some use if they were dual valid at Liverpool
NorthSouth
St Mawgan? (OK, not licensed, but plenty Brymon/Ryanair etc)
Inverness? (approach service from Lossie)
Inverness? (approach service from Lossie)
Inverness - Do Lossiemouth provide 'Approach Control' or do they render 'radar assistance' to Inverness? The two are different.
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CM:
Bit like Finningley will be then...not many ATMs but plenty FJ traffic around them.
But it seems we're not talking about RAF ATCOs providing a service to Finningley traffic anyway so the comparisons are hypothetical, just a response to royman's idea of Waddo providing the service instead of ctrlrs at EGGP.
As to Inverness, fair point, they don't actually have an 'Inverness Approach' facility at Lossiemouth, but it's mandatory for IFR tfc to contact Lossiemouth (advisory for VFR).
St Mawgan & Plenty - sorry, all the times I've operated into there those two words just don't go together.
But it seems we're not talking about RAF ATCOs providing a service to Finningley traffic anyway so the comparisons are hypothetical, just a response to royman's idea of Waddo providing the service instead of ctrlrs at EGGP.
As to Inverness, fair point, they don't actually have an 'Inverness Approach' facility at Lossiemouth, but it's mandatory for IFR tfc to contact Lossiemouth (advisory for VFR).
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At the risk of sounding extremely naive (and I'm not an ATCO), why don't Finningley act like a proper airport and splash out on their own radar head (primary at least - pipe in SSR from Claxby) and radar controllers. Doubtless both cost serious money but then it's not unreasonable to expect Peel to be serious if they want this project to succeed.
I'm now battening down the hatches. Over to you !
I'm now battening down the hatches. Over to you !
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Peel Holdings are a property developement company primarily, an an airport operator by default. The developement land just happened to be on an airport i.e. Liverpool.....and now Teesside and Finningley. Their working methods include paying the very least wage to whoever will work for them, hardly suprising since they have shareholders to answer to. and their is a large pool of part qualifieds eager to get a foot back in the ATC door......its called market forces. To establish a ' proper ATC service' with on site equipment is plainly not going to happen as long as the reglulators think that the service is safe in its current proposed state.
niknak
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Good question Hotline, you would have thought that having splashed out £80million on the development at Finningly, they would have gone the whole hog and installed radar as well.
I suspect that they did their sums and they consider that the present option is a cheaper one - not only do you need atcos to operate the radar, but suitably qualified engineers to maintain it, and a very big budget to pay for very expensive parts when they either wear out or break.
As with any company, the balance sheet is the bottom line, but Peel have invested a lot of their own cash in Finningly, and nobody would expect them to pay anyone, at any of their airports, over the odds unless market forces dictate otherwise.
However, if the current proposals weren't proven and safe, SRG wouldn't let it happen, it's simple as that.
PS - Strong rumour abounds that Exeter is next on their shopping list.......................
I suspect that they did their sums and they consider that the present option is a cheaper one - not only do you need atcos to operate the radar, but suitably qualified engineers to maintain it, and a very big budget to pay for very expensive parts when they either wear out or break.
As with any company, the balance sheet is the bottom line, but Peel have invested a lot of their own cash in Finningly, and nobody would expect them to pay anyone, at any of their airports, over the odds unless market forces dictate otherwise.
However, if the current proposals weren't proven and safe, SRG wouldn't let it happen, it's simple as that.
PS - Strong rumour abounds that Exeter is next on their shopping list.......................
Hotline
Couldn't agree more. Personally, I think they are trying to be too clever and that the simple, obvious solution would be far more efficient - for several reasons.
It's all gone very quiet here - anyone know what's happening, what staff they might have recruited, how the master plan is progressing?
Couldn't agree more. Personally, I think they are trying to be too clever and that the simple, obvious solution would be far more efficient - for several reasons.
It's all gone very quiet here - anyone know what's happening, what staff they might have recruited, how the master plan is progressing?
