Low-cost DEADlines

[apollo2000]

Hi all,

I'm a final year Air Transport student writing a dissertation on the safety of low-cost airlines. The subject is one that I was guided towards and I am struggling to find info. As things stand, I have come to the conclusion that low-cost carriers are as safe, if not more so, than their full service counterparts. However, it has now been suggested to me that there is concern regarding the 'sense of urgency' of certain low-cost carriers among air traffic controllers. I understand that some airlines offer on-time bonuses to their pilots and this can put pilots under pressure to achieve deadlines. So, I'd be grateful if any of you could divulge any information you have with regards to such incidents. I have to go now but I'll check/reply around 7pm.

Thanks in advance
Chris

[squibbler]

I smell a deadline here myself.............an editor's deadline.

[jettesen]

If you are a final year student writing your dissertation, surely you will know that it should have been written by now! All dissertations are required to be in by the middle of may at the latest. Considering exams are in the next 2 weeks, and your dissertation would be in the process of being marked. Leaving it a bit late aren't you?????



JOURNO ALERT

surely you can cover your tracks better than this

[Doors to Automatic]

I smell a rat too (or should that be a journo?)

As far as I know (and I'm happy to be corrected) there are no 3-year Air Transport courses in existence. The only ones I know of are one year MSc courses available at Cranfield, Loughborough and the University of Westminster.

Therefore there is, de facto, no such thing as a final year Air Transport Student.

However, Apollo, assuming you are genuine I should point out that is very unlikely you will be freely given any information on this topic here.

[apollo2000]

OK, I'll answer those questions

1) I've been given an extension on my disso due to the difficulty in finding info

2) BEng Air Transport Engineering at City University, London

[Numpo-Nigit]

apollo2000

If such information exists, it will be known to the Civil Aviation Authority. I suggest you contact them with your questions. A suitable link is -

http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/default.asp?page=1455

NN

[apollo2000]

Numpo-nigit

I've already tried SRG and all they could do was wish me luck on what they say sounded like a difficult subject. I also tried AAIB and the info on there isn't really sufficient. I understand your suspicions when someone asks qustions like this on their first post, but all I'm asking for are facts and accounts of events, not opinions on whether or not low cost carriers are safe. As I said above, my conclusions so far are that they are safe. I feel like I've been steered down a blind alley by agreeing to such a subject, but it is my project supervisor who insists that ATC have concerns on the matter. I've even spoken with a low-cost pilot who has been flying for 18 years with a variety of airlines and he had every confidence in the safety of low cost airlines. He echoed my own thoughts that they are very safety conscious as they have more to loss in the media-frenzy that would follow an accident involving one their a/c.

So, I'm not digging for dirt. If all of you can tell me that low cost carriers are safe in the eyes of ATC, or at least as safe as others, so be it. I'll then try to write a few thousand words on how safe ATC believe LCCs really are. If on the other hand you feel that they may be a bit quick off the mark, then I'd like to hear about that too.

Cheers

[The Otter's Pocket]

I must admit that I am a little disappointed at the responses to the request. It has become usual for people to be shot down in flames if there is an suspicion of ANYTHING or they don't agree with the masses.
For goodness sake if you haven't got anything constructive to say then keep it shut.

Appollo a good source of information is held within this web site however like all good students I would suggest that you look a little deeper. There are lots of threads that contain links to information that you would be of interest to you.

[Numpo-Nigit]

Otter's Pocket

I'm sorry that you found my post disappointing. It was an attempt to be helpful, or so I thought. Working on the assumption that appollo2000 is indeed who he says he is, then it seemed reasonable to suggest a source of factual information (MORs, SRG investiagtions, etc) rather than third-hand rumour, innuendo or prejudice. Like most people in ATC, I have heard stories regarding the practices of certain operators - undoubtedly some are true, whilst others are mere myths. However, and I'm not being coy, I have no actual evidence to prove or disprove said stories. Indeed, with a career in ATC spanning several decades, I have probably heard some adverse comment about every airline in the sky!!! I don't believe them all, and I continue to fly!!!

I repeat my view that any such evidence, if it exists, will be known to the CAA. As such it should have been officially reported, investigated and analysed in a dispassionate manner - that will be real evidence. Certainly a precis of MORs is regularly circulated fairly widely within the industry, and I would have thought that it would be readily available in a case like this. Perhaps appollo2000 asked the CAA the wrong question, or asked the wrong person, or maybe they just feel it is inappropriate to assist such a quest.

Sorry if this is rather less than helpful - it is not intended to be.


NN

[StillDark&Hungry]

Apollo

I know this won't help your dissertation at all but for what it's worth;

I've been an ATCO for over 15 years now and in that time have flown with many airlines around the world. Sometimes lucky enough to be on the Flightdeck but mostly as a typical passenger "down the back".
I can honestly say that I have never taken a flight with an airline that I didn't feel safe flying with (Life is not a game of chance - it's not worth it!!) be it Low-cost, Charter or Scheduled. Mind you that Aeroflot trip was an eye opener

I know it sounds morbid but what about looking at accident statistics? It only gives information on the past, obviously, but it's amazing what trends can be spotted over time! ie. Are QANTAS still officially the safest airline in the world? or would a mathematician just say they were the next in line for a biggie?

[apollo2000]

Accident statistics are all well and good, and I have referred to them in my disso, but the problem is that most low cost carriers have had so few flights, relatively speaking, that its difficult to quantify just how safe they really are even though most have never suffered a fatal event. Even at that, I've been told that accident statistics are not the full story. I even had the audacity to suggest that Southwest were one of the safest airlines just because they have never suffered a fatality after 10 million cycles, but my supervisor suggested there's no such thing as safe, just lucky and safety conscious. The CAA etc are very reluctant to disclose the safety records of individual airlines to the general public. As far as they're concerned the airline is either safe or it isn't, in which case the airline's AOC would be withdrawn and its safety record would then be of no concern to the general public.

[redsnail]

Ask the insurance companies. They'll know.

[apollo2000]

redsnail

Do you honestly think the insurance companies will tell me anything. Wouldn't such disclosure be deemed illegal under data protection. I'll give it a try. Most are underwritten by Lloyds, right?

[Big Tudor]

I would say that any incidents that have happened are already in the public domain via the AAIB website, either as interim or final reports. Obviously some incidents don't reach the level of AAIB and are dealt with either on a local level or are filed for reference. Some reports, by their very nature, are confidential and you wouldn't / shouldn't be able to get your hands on them.
Producing any report that implies safety is being compromised for the sake of commercial advantage is going to be extremely risky without hard, factual evidence to back it up. I would say it could also leave a person open to a potential court case for slander / libel. Producing a report from confidential reports would land you in very deep water indeed.
The fact is, airlines safety records are judged on the incidents / accidents they have had, and the findings from the subsequent investigation. For your supervisor to suggest there is no such thing as 'safe' is slightly immature and blase IMHO. To then go on and suggest that it is partly down to luck suggests a significant lack of understanding on the part of your supervisor. The fact that Southwest have never suffered a fatality after 10 million cycles suggests to me that they are operating with a highly trained, highly skilled and well motivated workforce, and probably promote an honest and open culture when it comes to reporting and resolving issues. Luck might get you 1 million fatality free cycles but I'm pretty damned sure it wouldn't get you 10 million.

To reiterate Otter's Pocket, there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence contained within PPRuNe, it just needs some digging to unearth it. If you do a search for EasyJet or Ryanair you will have more information than you can deal with! I would stress again though, a lot of the comments made here would stand very little chance in a court of law should you try to publish them in a report.

[niknak]

There's no doubt that there are or have been some very dubious practices going on in the low cost airline industry, but you try and prove that any one officially reported incident is indicitave of a trend - almost impossible.
In the same respect, you've got prove that any conclusions are factually correct, again, almost impossible and subject to very close scrutiny by the litigation brigade.

[Dan Dare]

Additional risk factors I've witnessed with certain low-cost carriers:

1) Infamous warp-speed taying to make block times - how on earth are they ever gonna stop if something gets in the way?
2) With 15 minute turnarround time, what safety checks do the crew get to make? Surely there is increased risk of missing something glaringly obvious.
3) Extra long crewing hours (this applies to all airlines these days, but I think it fair to say more so to lo-co) - how well will they perform with the emergency on the 6th sector of the day having just worked 13 hours? With unrealistic schedules, any problems during the preceding sectors can easily increase the duty day beyond planning maxima. A quick look at CHIRP shows what the flight crew think of this abuse of the rostering (look at almost any issue and you will find some talk if this abuse. This is really a failing of the regulator, which is abused by the airlines.
4) Perhaps someone in the know can explain this, but they are (nearly) always ready for departure as soon as they get the runway, not matter how quickly that happens. Do they not do a (full) safety presentation? When the crash does happen for whatever reason, how well prepared will the passengers and cabin crew be to exit expeditiously?
5) You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Some of the rates paid by the low costs for stafflower down the food-chian, who are still vital to the safety of the airline are unbelievable. These peole are not staying to gain any level of expertise, and must be quite demoralised. Safety can be compromised to some extent by all sorts of the ground staff from ops, dispach, baggage handling etc.


Low cost airlines are still quite safe to fly (otherwise they would not be allowed). Accidents probably cost more than safety, and if you are after profits you will bear that in mind. I can not be convinced, however, that they are as safe as the old dinasour airlines with full checks, whole career's worth of experience and better motivated staff(?)

[ramble off]

[Nil further]

Dan Dare + Others

I dont normally rise to the bait ,on this occasion however your breathtaking arrogance needs some sort of response . I can not speak for Ryanair , i am familiar however with the training and operational practices of another major european low cost carrier.

Our training department is staffed by some of the most experienced trainers in the world from Globaly recognised carriers like Cathay , BA , Virgin etc . Are you saying that these guys are signing off people who will cut corners or who are only there because they paid for their training or are somehow incompetent ?

I fly as a humble line Capt' . as far as i am aware my salary is amongst the best in europe for an independent 737 operator , do you dispute this ?

My employer has a UK CAA AOC wich governs amongst other things FTL's , if you look at that you will see that the max allowable FDP for 6 sectors is 10h 30 min . Where do you get your claim of 13 hour FDP ?

I can explain why we are ready when we get to the runway , we work as a team for all of the turnaound , we dont eat from the cheeseboard , we dont collect pax jackets and hang them up , offer champagne or complimentary newspapers , that what low cost means ! Our taget is to get the customers on board, sat down and briefed thats all . Ive worked in the full service industry and LO-CO i know where the time saving comes from , have you ?

NIk NAK , you say "there is no doubt that there are some very dubious practices in the lo-cost industry, the big boys have their share . What about the BA concorde running out of fuel because a senior CApt insisted on overiding the engineer and FO and pressing on , wasnt he subsequently promoted ? The BY 757 incident at Gerona raised some very interesting questions !

THese types of things will happen in every company , it is a myth promulgated by the full service guys deperately trying to hold on to their old ways that the lo-co sector is compromising safety .

From what i have seen , there are idiots in every company , as you would expect , from the law of averages ; and in every company the rest of the guys and the management know exactly who they are . They cant or wont get rid of them because of the Squadron tie, the Square , old school or whatever , In this respect its no different from any other workplace .


To suggest that accidents are more likely simply because a carrier is lo-cost in the prices it charges for the seats is simply false .

Safe flying
NF

[Tallbloke]

Doors to Automatic:

Therefore there is, de facto, no such thing as a final year Air Transport Student.

I hope you are wrong otherwise what have I been doing this last year

[apollo2000]

Thanks for the responses guys. Time's pressing on so I hope you don't mind if I bump this in hope of a few more responses.

Cheers