New format ATCO Licence
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New format ATCO Licence
At Biggin we have received our new format 'harmonised' Euro licences. They came in a Do-It-Yourself Blue Peter style flat pack.
This has got me wondering....in our position in the employment pecking order we quite frequently acquire our new controllers from either smaller, Aerodrome only units, where staff wish to move on career wise, or from failed cadets etc who benefit from a fresh approach. Under the old system an Aerodrome Control Rating was usable everywhere. Now, we have Aerodrome (Instrument) and Aerodrome (Visual) ratings.
As occasionally happens we are in the market for more contollers again (interested parties PM me or E mail [email protected] )
but now if I try and recruit from the smaller airfields they may not have the ADI rating. Also what is the plan at the CATC? Are they going to continue with training their cadets to Aerodrome level before going on to Area, if so what type of Aerodrome rating will they get before being chopped at Area Radar?
All this has the potential to create an even greater shortage of ATCO's than the one we are currently facing and leaves me a smaller pool to look into.
...and before anyone mentions why dont we pay for courses for ATCA's to become ATCO's, we do that but the time taken to get the finished useable product is too long to meet our current shortage.
Regards
SATCO Biggin
This has got me wondering....in our position in the employment pecking order we quite frequently acquire our new controllers from either smaller, Aerodrome only units, where staff wish to move on career wise, or from failed cadets etc who benefit from a fresh approach. Under the old system an Aerodrome Control Rating was usable everywhere. Now, we have Aerodrome (Instrument) and Aerodrome (Visual) ratings.
As occasionally happens we are in the market for more contollers again (interested parties PM me or E mail [email protected] )
but now if I try and recruit from the smaller airfields they may not have the ADI rating. Also what is the plan at the CATC? Are they going to continue with training their cadets to Aerodrome level before going on to Area, if so what type of Aerodrome rating will they get before being chopped at Area Radar?All this has the potential to create an even greater shortage of ATCO's than the one we are currently facing and leaves me a smaller pool to look into.
...and before anyone mentions why dont we pay for courses for ATCA's to become ATCO's, we do that but the time taken to get the finished useable product is too long to meet our current shortage.
Regards
SATCO Biggin
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I can't see the aerodrome course content being changed - it would cause too much grief to units all over and so would be self defeating for the colleges.
So - I'm guessing you would leave the college having trained for both ratings, yet what appears on your licence would depend on where you worked. With SRG trying to get as many units onto the LCE scheme, which would involve having a Unit Training Plan in place, a new recruit coming to you with ADV on his existing licence would be issued ADI on succesful completion of the UTP and subsequent validation. This is the only way I can see the system working succesfully.
As for the 'NATS reject' source of controllers - I was under the impression that future policy at NATS/CATC was to 'pre-ordain' courses and, if the course was for Area, then that's all the candidate would be qualified for from the outset - no Aerodrome training at all. If they failed they left with nothing. I'm happy to be told I'm wrong but that was the 'rumour' going round about 12 months ago. If that's the case then I'd start reviewing your training budget
So - I'm guessing you would leave the college having trained for both ratings, yet what appears on your licence would depend on where you worked. With SRG trying to get as many units onto the LCE scheme, which would involve having a Unit Training Plan in place, a new recruit coming to you with ADV on his existing licence would be issued ADI on succesful completion of the UTP and subsequent validation. This is the only way I can see the system working succesfully.
As for the 'NATS reject' source of controllers - I was under the impression that future policy at NATS/CATC was to 'pre-ordain' courses and, if the course was for Area, then that's all the candidate would be qualified for from the outset - no Aerodrome training at all. If they failed they left with nothing. I'm happy to be told I'm wrong but that was the 'rumour' going round about 12 months ago. If that's the case then I'd start reviewing your training budget
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I think your synopsis is correct ... Area people won't be doing the Aerodrome Rating at some point in the not too distant future.
If that's the case then I'd start reviewing your training budget
Well if I cant pay the salaries needed to attract staff down from the big employers, and I cant pick up strays from NATS training in the future, then I am going to have to invest in a crystal ball so that I can predict the future and employ suitable ATCA's for promotion to ATCO's.
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SATCO
This is from a thread earlier in the year and accords with what I have seen in company briefings.
This is from a thread earlier in the year and accords with what I have seen in company briefings.
New legislation from our European Bretheren means that shortly a rating may only be held for 5 years without validation, whereupon you have to re-train. Thus not much point in NATS giving Tower to Area controllers, or APR to Tower-only unit controllers, until they actually shift to another unit or discipline. Thus the concept of single rating training at the college has been born, and will commence within the next year [not 150 course, as was mentioned].
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Thus the concept of single rating training at the college has been born, and will commence within the next year
Another backwards step was the removal of the Student ATCO licence before taking the first course. It enabled airfields like mine to put a prospective candidate on the r/t and see what they were like in the real world before committing finance to courses. now you have to buy them an Aerodrome course (and pass it) before you can test them out.
Perhaps I have been in the business too long.......
For Sale 1 SATCO, structurally intact, good runner, never raced or rallied, full service history, good engine but big ends knock and high liquid consumption rate.
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SATCO biggin
you hit the nail on the head when you talk about losing the Student licence-for the life of me I could not see the reasoning behind that, getting some live experience before the course was booked was a godsend, not just for the prospective ATCO, but also as you say gave the outfit about to splash out on training a good idea whether the money was to be well spent
My guess is that a lot of the people that got sent away to CATC or the like when I did (more years ago than I wish to recall!) would have seemed to be too much of a gamble to the beancounters had they not proved their ability beforehand
I had also heard that the 'space cadets ' would not be getting a ticket of any sort if they failed the course, as you say there are going to be far too few qualified APC/TWR rated people for the jobs available soon and no prospect of changing the situation in a hurry-would the courses at CATC be available even if people could afford to send trainees away?
you hit the nail on the head when you talk about losing the Student licence-for the life of me I could not see the reasoning behind that, getting some live experience before the course was booked was a godsend, not just for the prospective ATCO, but also as you say gave the outfit about to splash out on training a good idea whether the money was to be well spent
My guess is that a lot of the people that got sent away to CATC or the like when I did (more years ago than I wish to recall!) would have seemed to be too much of a gamble to the beancounters had they not proved their ability beforehand
I had also heard that the 'space cadets ' would not be getting a ticket of any sort if they failed the course, as you say there are going to be far too few qualified APC/TWR rated people for the jobs available soon and no prospect of changing the situation in a hurry-would the courses at CATC be available even if people could afford to send trainees away?
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.. the rumour about Area students not going in first for ADC is I am told the case.. interesting times ahead for no-state units recruiting from CAA college.. shortage.. what shortage?
Biggin, Southend, Prestwick, Bournemouth(?) Cambridge, Woodvale, Prestwick, Teeside, Swansea and now a possibility of Robin Hood (!) .. missed anywhere ?
Biggin, Southend, Prestwick, Bournemouth(?) Cambridge, Woodvale, Prestwick, Teeside, Swansea and now a possibility of Robin Hood (!) .. missed anywhere ?
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area or tower/approach only
Sorry to inform you SATCO but the CATC's new policy starts on course 131 where as you will do an intro course then go straight into either area, tower or approach. Strange policy i know and not to good for you guy's but people in higher places with supposedly higher intellect and far higher salaries view this the way forward.
Who are we to tell them it's daft.
Who are we to tell them it's daft.
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Less anyone should get the wrong idea we do not purely prey on persons other people have paid training for, and then failed, to get a cheap option.
Three of my current six qualified controllers were promoted through the ranks from ATCA and sent on the relevant courses. I myself failed the NATS (then CAA) aptitude test to be an ATCO (perhaps they were correct) and worked as an ATCA for many years before getting my 'break' into the controlling world. But thats a prickly story for another day.
We believe that there is good reason to look at any surplus controllers, part trained or otherwise, and give them a second run at making the grade if they appear to have the ability, and that doesnt mean our expectations are any lower than the 'big' players.
Ending a persons career choice because they couldnt make the jump from Aerodrome newbie to Area Radar in one step is a bit abrupt. Certainly when I went through CATC (48 course) anyone who failed were considered for a re-course and second attempt. I sort of get the feeling that some bean counter somewhere in head office is saying that one hit is all an ab-initio will get because it will cost money to give them a second chance, and lets not pay for any more qualifications than necessary.
JustaFew..
Thanks for the info. I saw the advert for DSF SATCO but do not think her indoors would go for the move somehow.
As for the jacket....I have this nice white one with sleeves that tie up round the back ! The boss says it is to stop me biting my finger nails but I have other thoughts on that.
But only joking really.....the boss is very supportive and is concerned about our staff shortage, which is why I am out in the market looking..
Regards
SATCO Biggin
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padded walls are a nice pink colour.
Three of my current six qualified controllers were promoted through the ranks from ATCA and sent on the relevant courses. I myself failed the NATS (then CAA) aptitude test to be an ATCO (perhaps they were correct) and worked as an ATCA for many years before getting my 'break' into the controlling world. But thats a prickly story for another day.
We believe that there is good reason to look at any surplus controllers, part trained or otherwise, and give them a second run at making the grade if they appear to have the ability, and that doesnt mean our expectations are any lower than the 'big' players.
Ending a persons career choice because they couldnt make the jump from Aerodrome newbie to Area Radar in one step is a bit abrupt. Certainly when I went through CATC (48 course) anyone who failed were considered for a re-course and second attempt. I sort of get the feeling that some bean counter somewhere in head office is saying that one hit is all an ab-initio will get because it will cost money to give them a second chance, and lets not pay for any more qualifications than necessary.
JustaFew..
Thanks for the info. I saw the advert for DSF SATCO but do not think her indoors would go for the move somehow.
As for the jacket....I have this nice white one with sleeves that tie up round the back ! The boss says it is to stop me biting my finger nails but I have other thoughts on that.
But only joking really.....the boss is very supportive and is concerned about our staff shortage, which is why I am out in the market looking..
Regards
SATCO Biggin
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De-skilling can only be a bean counters idea of good sense.
No more 6 weekers out at airports getting an idea of what happens before they get immersed in the area world.
I did 3 ratings when I went through the college , the procedural approach rating sorted the wheat from the chaff. I wish I had been there just a couple of years before when all 5 ratings were done, that way we would have the real mobility they keep telling us they are aiming for within NATS.
A retrograde step IMHO, how long before they see the error of their ways.
No more 6 weekers out at airports getting an idea of what happens before they get immersed in the area world.
I did 3 ratings when I went through the college , the procedural approach rating sorted the wheat from the chaff. I wish I had been there just a couple of years before when all 5 ratings were done, that way we would have the real mobility they keep telling us they are aiming for within NATS.
A retrograde step IMHO, how long before they see the error of their ways.
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New Licences
SATCO Biggin
My contacts down the A31 tell me that there will NOT be Aerodrome 'rated' Ex Area Trainees flogging their wares around the job market, because they won't do the 'old' Aerodrome course. Technical subjects common to all are dealt with in the 'Common Core Course'...remind anyone of the old Foundation Course?
They also say the College will teach Aerodrome (Instrument) on the basis just like learning to drive, if you pass on a manual then you can drive an automatic, but not vice versa, so (Instrument) can work (Visual) etc.etc. and apparently AV and AI don't have anything to do with VMC/IMC VFR/IFR
Flower
has 'real mobility' ever REALLY happened? Surely compulsory postings are too expensive for HR to consider as a realistic option...thank God! At least in NATS there is the rare chance of changing disciplines...voluntarily!
Tori
My contacts down the A31 tell me that there will NOT be Aerodrome 'rated' Ex Area Trainees flogging their wares around the job market, because they won't do the 'old' Aerodrome course. Technical subjects common to all are dealt with in the 'Common Core Course'...remind anyone of the old Foundation Course?
They also say the College will teach Aerodrome (Instrument) on the basis just like learning to drive, if you pass on a manual then you can drive an automatic, but not vice versa, so (Instrument) can work (Visual) etc.etc. and apparently AV and AI don't have anything to do with VMC/IMC VFR/IFR
Flower
has 'real mobility' ever REALLY happened? Surely compulsory postings are too expensive for HR to consider as a realistic option...thank God! At least in NATS there is the rare chance of changing disciplines...voluntarily!
Tori
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SATCO KB
Can you tell us what colour these new exciting documents are? Same old "Yellow Peril", or as rumoured, a Euro friendly Magenta (Pink!)
Tks
Rgds BEX
Can you tell us what colour these new exciting documents are? Same old "Yellow Peril", or as rumoured, a Euro friendly Magenta (Pink!)
Tks
Rgds BEX
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The licence holders are yellow still (we have a big box of spare ones at work!)
It is the piece of paper that needs manipulating and put into the old locence. As said, the changes are the ratings and your licence number which is now your medical number. (You also qualify for the ORIGAMI rating if you can fit it in perfectly!)
It is the piece of paper that needs manipulating and put into the old locence. As said, the changes are the ratings and your licence number which is now your medical number. (You also qualify for the ORIGAMI rating if you can fit it in perfectly!)
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Thanks.
Already got a head start on the ORIGAMI rating, folding JAR Class 2 Medical cert into my lovely baby poo brown PPL holder.
Looks like I'll have only one number to remember now
Rgds BEX
Already got a head start on the ORIGAMI rating, folding JAR Class 2 Medical cert into my lovely baby poo brown PPL holder.
Looks like I'll have only one number to remember now
Rgds BEX
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prospective candidate testing
Hi SATCO Biggin.
At our airfield, we were approached by an ATC Unit and prior to them sending one of their ATCA's on a full ATCO Course, they sent their candidate to our airfield to obtain a FISO rating. As a very busy GA airfield, this gave them chance to evaluate their candidates suitability and justification for the full expense of the full Aerodrome Rating Course.
Perhaps that could be an option for you should you continue to train up your ATCA's further. We'd certainly consider training up another candidate if approached.
Rightofway
At our airfield, we were approached by an ATC Unit and prior to them sending one of their ATCA's on a full ATCO Course, they sent their candidate to our airfield to obtain a FISO rating. As a very busy GA airfield, this gave them chance to evaluate their candidates suitability and justification for the full expense of the full Aerodrome Rating Course.
Perhaps that could be an option for you should you continue to train up your ATCA's further. We'd certainly consider training up another candidate if approached.
Rightofway
