Crossing Red Stop Bars
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Crossing Red Stop Bars
A couple of years ago there was a thread on crossing red stop bars. Does anyone know of any airfield that still allows this to happen. At the airfield where I work we protect the runway at all times with red lights. Does this procedure happen anywhere else???
TAITH
TAITH
niknak
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Occassionally I've forgotton to switch them off when issuing a line up clearance and the pilot has gone straight across the red bars, it makes you wonder if, when in a car and they were stationary at a red traffic light and their passenger said "nothing coming either way" they'd drive straight across the junction.
Certainly it's not an accepted procedure in the UK (crossing red stop bars or traffic lights), and the only time it might happen is if the lights couldnt be switched off for technical reasons.
Certainly it's not an accepted procedure in the UK (crossing red stop bars or traffic lights), and the only time it might happen is if the lights couldnt be switched off for technical reasons.
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I once had an occasion when an aircraft not only lined up without a line up clearance but crossed a red stop bar in order to do so!! What was going on there I still ask myself.
As far as the principle of crossing red stop bars goes, it is definitely a no no as far as I am concerned. In fact Mats 1 now gives specific instructions that if you have a stop bar that serves a runway and cannot be lowered, you are supposed to either take the taxiway out of service or arrange for a vehicle to escort the aircraft over the stop bar! Never quite got to grips with that one bearing in mind that most aerodromes usually reserve stop bars for night or LVP operations - introducing yet another potential for conflict onto the runway!!
As far as the principle of crossing red stop bars goes, it is definitely a no no as far as I am concerned. In fact Mats 1 now gives specific instructions that if you have a stop bar that serves a runway and cannot be lowered, you are supposed to either take the taxiway out of service or arrange for a vehicle to escort the aircraft over the stop bar! Never quite got to grips with that one bearing in mind that most aerodromes usually reserve stop bars for night or LVP operations - introducing yet another potential for conflict onto the runway!!
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If everybody on this forum is united in their view that it is unacceptable to cross a red stopbar.....
I`m always surprised when I`m at LHR. During daylight, in the queue (weirdest English word BTW) for departure I see everybody crossing the holding point markings to line up long before the a/c on the runway has departed. I mean they sometimes crawl straight in the tailpipes!
Now I know that it`s all for expediting the departures, but my surprise comes from the fact that apparently during night hours it is a big nono to cross a stopbar, but during daytime it is common practice, at least at LHR. Where`s the difference?
I`m always surprised when I`m at LHR. During daylight, in the queue (weirdest English word BTW) for departure I see everybody crossing the holding point markings to line up long before the a/c on the runway has departed. I mean they sometimes crawl straight in the tailpipes!
Now I know that it`s all for expediting the departures, but my surprise comes from the fact that apparently during night hours it is a big nono to cross a stopbar, but during daytime it is common practice, at least at LHR. Where`s the difference?
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At the risk of opening a can of worms... the Aerad booklet for LL page B3 states
"An illuminated red stop bar means STOP. Aircraft must not procede until the stop bar is extinguished or ATC permission received."
One might consider, therefore, that if an aircraft is given a conditional clearance and that condition has been fulfilled, then permission to proceed has been given and the aircraft can continue to taxi over a red stop bar.
How far any pilot takes this is up to the individual, but I would contend that if we always waited for the stop bar to come down before taxiing, things would slow up quite a bit at LL.
I don't have the books for the other airfields in the UK with similar lighting arrangements, but I suspect that either similar notes exist in their plates (or perhaps less advisably, people are simply doing what they would do at LL).
Happy to be corrected. As ever, this has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience.
G W-H
"An illuminated red stop bar means STOP. Aircraft must not procede until the stop bar is extinguished or ATC permission received."
One might consider, therefore, that if an aircraft is given a conditional clearance and that condition has been fulfilled, then permission to proceed has been given and the aircraft can continue to taxi over a red stop bar.
How far any pilot takes this is up to the individual, but I would contend that if we always waited for the stop bar to come down before taxiing, things would slow up quite a bit at LL.
I don't have the books for the other airfields in the UK with similar lighting arrangements, but I suspect that either similar notes exist in their plates (or perhaps less advisably, people are simply doing what they would do at LL).
Happy to be corrected. As ever, this has no basis more reliable than my own meandering experience.
G W-H
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GWH - at the risk of introducing another colour
- this is a 'grey' area. Can ATC (LL/KK) confirm that clearance to line-up 'behind the departing' or 'after the landing' constitutes clearance to cross an illuminated red stop bar - or should you perhaps include that clearance in the R/T call? I think we all understand the system for resetting taxy path lighting, but it means either another call from us or a delay in our moving.
- this is a 'grey' area. Can ATC (LL/KK) confirm that clearance to line-up 'behind the departing' or 'after the landing' constitutes clearance to cross an illuminated red stop bar - or should you perhaps include that clearance in the R/T call? I think we all understand the system for resetting taxy path lighting, but it means either another call from us or a delay in our moving.
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This topic also opens up the whole subject of conditional clearances as well as the use of stop bars. I personally never issue a conditional clearnace if I am using stop bars but I appreciate that the traffic levels at my airfield are nothing like those at EGLL/KK. In my mind, stop bars are there for the protection of both parties and I would always expect an aircraft/vehicle to query a line up or crossing instruction when a red stop bar is displayed. If ATC are routinely instructing an aircraft to cross a red stop bar then the whole impact of these devices becomes severely degraded.
As an aside, ATSIN 41 requires ATS providers to "review local procedures and practices relating to the use of conditional clearances in order to satisfy themselves that the risks of such operations are adequately controlled" I would suggest that the use of stop bars in this situation is one area that should be considered.
As an aside, ATSIN 41 requires ATS providers to "review local procedures and practices relating to the use of conditional clearances in order to satisfy themselves that the risks of such operations are adequately controlled" I would suggest that the use of stop bars in this situation is one area that should be considered.
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Don't see the problem. I will issue a conditional clearance when using stopbars but not dropping the stopbar until 'the condition' has passed (but with a degree of anticipation knowing the stopbar takes a few seconds to drop). It would really slow down the operation not to.
VA
VA
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We regularly get briefings from Heathrow Airport ltd and ATC about speeding up the movement rate at both LHR and LGW. The last one was a glossy leaflet and specifically mentioned that in day VMC you could line up behind departing traffic as soon as you judged it safe. It also pointed out the difference in LVP's and at night. The idea is that when cleared for take-off you are lined up with all checks complete and there is no delay in setting take-off power. Some crews are better at this than others (even within my own airline) and a very small minority don't seem to want to help at all...........
We regularly get briefings from Heathrow Airport ltd and ATC about speeding up the movement rate at both LHR and LGW. The last one was a glossy leaflet and specifically mentioned that in day VMC you could line up behind departing traffic as soon as you judged it safe. It also pointed out the difference in LVP's and at night. The idea is that when cleared for take-off you are lined up with all checks complete and there is no delay in setting take-off power. Some crews are better at this than others (even within my own airline) and a very small minority don't seem to want to help at all...........
Why use the stopbar if you are using a conditional for full length departure sequences? If I've got a queue of departures to blast off in quick succession I just leave the stopbar off and operate as in daylight - one of the few things we are allowed to do at night as per Mats Pt1. If the number two to depart wants to run off the fumes of number one, so much the better for expedition!
However if intersection departures or landing traffic is involved then I just don't use conditionals - I've seen too many ATCOs disciplined when things go wrong - and the time saved is negligable to nothing.
On the subject of stopbars I have noticed that many ATCOs don't bother to extinguish them for vehicles. This is bad practice and is just asking for trouble.
Finally, in the interests of safety may I urge any pilots or airfield vehicle drivers reading this to query any instruction which involves crossing a red stopbar.
However if intersection departures or landing traffic is involved then I just don't use conditionals - I've seen too many ATCOs disciplined when things go wrong - and the time saved is negligable to nothing.
On the subject of stopbars I have noticed that many ATCOs don't bother to extinguish them for vehicles. This is bad practice and is just asking for trouble.
Finally, in the interests of safety may I urge any pilots or airfield vehicle drivers reading this to query any instruction which involves crossing a red stopbar.
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Was some time ago - but, back in my PPL days, I was given a clearance to line up (at a large UK airfield) however the stop bar didn't go off.
I pointed out to ATC that the bar was lit - they said "It's OK, your are cleared to enter the runway". The bar still didn't go off.
Not knowing (and apparantly still not, to this day) if this was true I held short until the lights went out.
I'm curious to see where this thread goes.
I pointed out to ATC that the bar was lit - they said "It's OK, your are cleared to enter the runway". The bar still didn't go off.
Not knowing (and apparantly still not, to this day) if this was true I held short until the lights went out.
I'm curious to see where this thread goes.
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More confusion, then - we need a definitive answer from ATC or BAA regs here - and consistency, it appears? Personally I always query clearance where the bar is lit, but it adds to the R/T in a busy environment.
Anyone got the 'bible'?
Anyone got the 'bible'?
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
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...maybe common sense depending on the situation and ATC 'instructions'?
At LGW often hear: "Can't suppress reds - cleared to cross" or similar... not unreasonable to continue?
But just 'driving' across has to be silly.. here some of the bars protect the road crossings - the result of crossing one of these doesn't bear thinking about.
If there was no stop bar would you enter an active runway without a specfic clearance to do so?
PW
At LGW often hear: "Can't suppress reds - cleared to cross" or similar... not unreasonable to continue?
But just 'driving' across has to be silly.. here some of the bars protect the road crossings - the result of crossing one of these doesn't bear thinking about.
If there was no stop bar would you enter an active runway without a specfic clearance to do so?
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Somebody asked for a definitive answer - well, the Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 - Section 2 Chapter 1 Page 7 Para 10.3.4 is quite clear about this. Sorry for the long quote -
"At aerodoromes where taxiway stop-bars are used to protect taxiway routes and runways from inadvertent incursions controllers are not to clear aircraft to cross an illuminated stop-bar. The inoperable stop-bar and its associated taxiway should be withdrawn from service and an alternative routeing used. On the occasions when this is not possible an aircraft may be cleared to cross such an illuminated taxiway stop-bar subject to the following conditions:
a) The stop-bar cannot be suppressed;
b) The stop-bar and aircraft affected are visible to the aerodrome controller;
c) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot in no doubt that the clearance applies only to the faulty stop-bar;
BUT (my but!)
d) In the case of illuminated stop-bars protecting the runway aircraft may not be cleared to cross without the assistance of an aerodrome operations vehicle."
So according to the book, you pilots should never be told to cross a red stop-bar protecting a runway without being escorted by an operations vehicle.
"At aerodoromes where taxiway stop-bars are used to protect taxiway routes and runways from inadvertent incursions controllers are not to clear aircraft to cross an illuminated stop-bar. The inoperable stop-bar and its associated taxiway should be withdrawn from service and an alternative routeing used. On the occasions when this is not possible an aircraft may be cleared to cross such an illuminated taxiway stop-bar subject to the following conditions:
a) The stop-bar cannot be suppressed;
b) The stop-bar and aircraft affected are visible to the aerodrome controller;
c) The phraseology used is to leave the pilot in no doubt that the clearance applies only to the faulty stop-bar;
BUT (my but!)
d) In the case of illuminated stop-bars protecting the runway aircraft may not be cleared to cross without the assistance of an aerodrome operations vehicle."
So according to the book, you pilots should never be told to cross a red stop-bar protecting a runway without being escorted by an operations vehicle.
Well quoted (this is a crisis). Stop Bars illuminated mean stop. Accidents are likely to happen when the procedures are not followed correctly. Most of the procedures and systems have been designed as a consequence of a previous accident(s). For goodness sake use the systems and procedures correctly.
H49
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This is a crisis
Thanks for taking the time to do the bookwork and come up with the official answer!!
It would appear from reading your quote that in order to comply with the requirement not to give clearances to cross red stop bars, controllers will have to stop giving conditional clearances. The reasoning behind this statement is that if the condition has been fulfilled and the stop bar has not dropped then the ATCO has (albeit unintentionally) cleared an aircraft to cross a red bar.
(I am partly playing devil's advocate here, but mainly to point out that what is written in our manuals is not neccessarily easy to apply in real life).
G W-H
Thanks for taking the time to do the bookwork and come up with the official answer!!
It would appear from reading your quote that in order to comply with the requirement not to give clearances to cross red stop bars, controllers will have to stop giving conditional clearances. The reasoning behind this statement is that if the condition has been fulfilled and the stop bar has not dropped then the ATCO has (albeit unintentionally) cleared an aircraft to cross a red bar.
(I am partly playing devil's advocate here, but mainly to point out that what is written in our manuals is not neccessarily easy to apply in real life).
G W-H
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...and when you have a time limited bar, which goes red 50 secs after you activate the green........and you activate it to soon.
See a SAS Q400 slam the brakes at high speed taxi down the paralell twy before crossing the crosswind runway. Que lots of smoke, knackerd tiers and pissed off flightcrew......
...Sorry!
See a SAS Q400 slam the brakes at high speed taxi down the paralell twy before crossing the crosswind runway. Que lots of smoke, knackerd tiers and pissed off flightcrew......
...Sorry!
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G.W.H.
I take your point exactly - the reason why I dont use conditional clearances when using stop-bars. At my airfield we only use stop-bars at night and in LVPs, the times when, IMHO, you need positive control i.e. I am clearing you to line up and I am switching off the stop-bar to confirm this. If I dont switch off the stop-bar I expect the pilot to query this and not move until I have done so. Using stop-bars and conditional clearances is in my opinion a contradiction.
M609
On our stop-bar system, you only get a time limitation when you have the LVP button selected. In these circumstances we require positive reports from pilots that they have reached a particular hold - we then de-select the stop-bar when giving line up clearance. This removes the problem of activating the button too soon.
I take your point exactly - the reason why I dont use conditional clearances when using stop-bars. At my airfield we only use stop-bars at night and in LVPs, the times when, IMHO, you need positive control i.e. I am clearing you to line up and I am switching off the stop-bar to confirm this. If I dont switch off the stop-bar I expect the pilot to query this and not move until I have done so. Using stop-bars and conditional clearances is in my opinion a contradiction.
M609
On our stop-bar system, you only get a time limitation when you have the LVP button selected. In these circumstances we require positive reports from pilots that they have reached a particular hold - we then de-select the stop-bar when giving line up clearance. This removes the problem of activating the button too soon.
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There's two different questions here.
Can you cross a red when taxying, if the condition has been fulfilled?
and
Can you cross a red to line-up at the full length when the condition has started it's take-off roll?
At LL when under the supervision of the ground controller we have lighting operators who work with with us, by monitoring the fequency and formulating plans, these guys do a difficult job as they have no flight progress strips to reference. So it happens at times they may forget to drop a red after your condition has passed, a quick call on the RT will never hurt, no matter how busy you think the frequency is. At least then we have no ambiguity.
When you're in the queue for departure (these runway holding area lights are controlled by the actual departures controller) If he/she is doing the job properly as soon as the your condition aircraft is on the runway the lights should be changed to give you a green route, thus leaving you with task of lining up when you are comfortable, if that's nose to exhaust it's up to you. NB this obviousley doesn't apply to intersections.
As for actually crossing a red anywhere on the airfield, there's no excuse, unless it's u/s. Even then that's a big grey area. I wouldn't worry though as far as LL is concerned, there's gonna come a time not soon when no-one can taxi anywhere if HAL keep closing down parts of the airfield for yet more work in progress....... but that's another thread.
Can you cross a red when taxying, if the condition has been fulfilled?
and
Can you cross a red to line-up at the full length when the condition has started it's take-off roll?
At LL when under the supervision of the ground controller we have lighting operators who work with with us, by monitoring the fequency and formulating plans, these guys do a difficult job as they have no flight progress strips to reference. So it happens at times they may forget to drop a red after your condition has passed, a quick call on the RT will never hurt, no matter how busy you think the frequency is. At least then we have no ambiguity.
When you're in the queue for departure (these runway holding area lights are controlled by the actual departures controller) If he/she is doing the job properly as soon as the your condition aircraft is on the runway the lights should be changed to give you a green route, thus leaving you with task of lining up when you are comfortable, if that's nose to exhaust it's up to you. NB this obviousley doesn't apply to intersections.
As for actually crossing a red anywhere on the airfield, there's no excuse, unless it's u/s. Even then that's a big grey area. I wouldn't worry though as far as LL is concerned, there's gonna come a time not soon when no-one can taxi anywhere if HAL keep closing down parts of the airfield for yet more work in progress....... but that's another thread.