Surveillance Radar Approach - LHR
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Surveillance Radar Approach - LHR
Can someone advise why selected aircraft were being vectored for SRA at Heathrow yesterday?
Thanks
0918 (an interested IR student)
Thanks
0918 (an interested IR student)
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All Approach Radar ATCOs have to do a minimum number of SRAs per year to keep current. You will quite often hear a lot being done when the end of the TRUCE year is up or if someone has a a validation board approaching.
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During my IR training, I was asked if I would accept SRAs on several occasions "for Controller training" - perfect timing for me and very good training for both parties. It's one of my favourite procedures - the Controllers do all the work and make all the calculations and I just follow their instructions!
I recall one who said so much, so quickly and so excitedly that he had to announce a break in transmission while he caught his breath and had a drink!
A good SRA is an art form so I'd imagine it's one of the tougher one for Controllers?
I recall one who said so much, so quickly and so excitedly that he had to announce a break in transmission while he caught his breath and had a drink!
A good SRA is an art form so I'd imagine it's one of the tougher one for Controllers?
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I always felt that had I done them every day, I'd have tended to like them more... Doing just enough to stay current was never enough to be comfortable. What's more, it always seemed as though I'd get nothing but F4s for practice, then only 172s in real need (or vice versa).
There is, however, something really satisfying about doing this well. The results are obvious and feedback is immediate.
In all my years, I don't think I ever mentioned this, but pilots should be aware that the controller pretty much KNOWS whether you're "helping" him/her by modifying your turns. When a controller is getting practice during fair weather, it's a bad idea for the pilot to help out. We've got to feel our way through these things and learn from our errors... Also, don't feel compelled to say "good job, you put me right over the numbers" when it ain't true!
Dave
How much detail would you like?
Generally, this is a procedure by which a pilot, finding him-or-herself in need of, say, an ILS, but also finding him-or-herself in an aicraft incapable of such an approach, would still like to safely return to the ground (go figure). An air traffic controller may be able to assist by giving precise steers to the runway centerline.
It's kind of like a tire and stick approach, where the aircraft is the tire rolling toward the runway, and the controller taps the aircraft (by communicating with the pilot) to the left or right. Then the controller watches the result of the turn and gives another correction. If the pilot is able to fly headings, that's what we assign. If the pilot is not able to fly headings ("no gyro" approach), then the controller will have the pilot make half standard rate turns and simply direct him or her to "turn left... stop turn," "turn right... stop turn..." The controller provides altitude "step-down" info to the pilot as well, but it is up to the pilot to ensure that the aircraft is at the appropriate altitude.
More to it than that, but I don't know how much you're looking for here...
Dave
There is, however, something really satisfying about doing this well. The results are obvious and feedback is immediate.
In all my years, I don't think I ever mentioned this, but pilots should be aware that the controller pretty much KNOWS whether you're "helping" him/her by modifying your turns. When a controller is getting practice during fair weather, it's a bad idea for the pilot to help out. We've got to feel our way through these things and learn from our errors... Also, don't feel compelled to say "good job, you put me right over the numbers" when it ain't true!
Dave
If anyone has a spare few minutes to explain this precedure it would be very much appreciated
Generally, this is a procedure by which a pilot, finding him-or-herself in need of, say, an ILS, but also finding him-or-herself in an aicraft incapable of such an approach, would still like to safely return to the ground (go figure). An air traffic controller may be able to assist by giving precise steers to the runway centerline.
It's kind of like a tire and stick approach, where the aircraft is the tire rolling toward the runway, and the controller taps the aircraft (by communicating with the pilot) to the left or right. Then the controller watches the result of the turn and gives another correction. If the pilot is able to fly headings, that's what we assign. If the pilot is not able to fly headings ("no gyro" approach), then the controller will have the pilot make half standard rate turns and simply direct him or her to "turn left... stop turn," "turn right... stop turn..." The controller provides altitude "step-down" info to the pilot as well, but it is up to the pilot to ensure that the aircraft is at the appropriate altitude.
More to it than that, but I don't know how much you're looking for here...
Dave
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Paracab,
A Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA), is an approach made by an aircraft throughout which the controller talks to the pilot to position him on the final approach track and descend at a given rate from a given point to be in a certain position (normally 2 miles from the threshold), on the centreline to acquire the runway visually and continue visually.
It goes something like this:
ATC: Vectors for a Surveillance Radar Approach rwyxx, terminating a 2 miles from touchdown, check your minima, step down fix and missed approach point
ATC: Report runway or approach lights in sight, after landing contacting tower on xxx.xx
A/C: Roger, vectors SRA xx checked
ATC: Turn left/right, heading xxx closing final approach track from left/right
A/C left/right xxx
ATC: Left of final approach track, closing nicely 8 miles from touchdown check wheels
A/C: Roger down and locked
ATC: Left of final approach track closing nicely, 7 miles commence descent now to maintain a x degree glidepath QNH/QFE xxxx
A/c roger
ATC still left closing nicely, altitude passing should be xxxxft
this continues until
ATC: On final approach track 3 miles, altitude passing should be xxxft, check minmium descent altitude
A/C Checked
ATC: 2 miles on final approach track altitude passing should be xxxft, cleared to land rwyxx
A/C roger cleared to land
ATC: Approach complete radar out
Some units are equipped to perform what is (or was) know as a PAR which also includes relevant glideslope information, this is commonly known as a "Talkdown", the controler tells the pilot what to do, the pilot does it and doesn't speak, this is accurate right down to touchdown
The SRA is practised by controllers to stay current under the terms of their licence, some of us are lucky enough to do a whole lot more than the minimum required to stay current each year (My thanks to Loganair for keeping me going)
Personally I love them, although the comments by the shuttle pilot on my radar board when he stated that "heven't done one for ages, should be good for a laugh" didn't go down too well with a very nervous candidate at the time but well appreciated afterwards
A Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA), is an approach made by an aircraft throughout which the controller talks to the pilot to position him on the final approach track and descend at a given rate from a given point to be in a certain position (normally 2 miles from the threshold), on the centreline to acquire the runway visually and continue visually.
It goes something like this:
ATC: Vectors for a Surveillance Radar Approach rwyxx, terminating a 2 miles from touchdown, check your minima, step down fix and missed approach point
ATC: Report runway or approach lights in sight, after landing contacting tower on xxx.xx
A/C: Roger, vectors SRA xx checked
ATC: Turn left/right, heading xxx closing final approach track from left/right
A/C left/right xxx
ATC: Left of final approach track, closing nicely 8 miles from touchdown check wheels
A/C: Roger down and locked
ATC: Left of final approach track closing nicely, 7 miles commence descent now to maintain a x degree glidepath QNH/QFE xxxx
A/c roger
ATC still left closing nicely, altitude passing should be xxxxft
this continues until
ATC: On final approach track 3 miles, altitude passing should be xxxft, check minmium descent altitude
A/C Checked
ATC: 2 miles on final approach track altitude passing should be xxxft, cleared to land rwyxx
A/C roger cleared to land
ATC: Approach complete radar out
Some units are equipped to perform what is (or was) know as a PAR which also includes relevant glideslope information, this is commonly known as a "Talkdown", the controler tells the pilot what to do, the pilot does it and doesn't speak, this is accurate right down to touchdown
The SRA is practised by controllers to stay current under the terms of their licence, some of us are lucky enough to do a whole lot more than the minimum required to stay current each year (My thanks to Loganair for keeping me going)
Personally I love them, although the comments by the shuttle pilot on my radar board when he stated that "heven't done one for ages, should be good for a laugh" didn't go down too well with a very nervous candidate at the time but well appreciated afterwards
aceatco, retired
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Real men (and women!) did/do SRAs to half a mile!
Did over 500 (I logged everyone, yes I know sad) before our ACR430 'melted down' (head caught fire!) Had a few goes on a ACR424 but validated on 430.
Did over 500 (I logged everyone, yes I know sad) before our ACR430 'melted down' (head caught fire!) Had a few goes on a ACR424 but validated on 430.
aceatco, retired
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The differences between a 2nm SRA and ½nm SRA is, obviously, the approach continues to ½nm from touchdown and from 5nm until termination the ATCO is on continuous transmission so the pilot doesn't reply. No problem with something of reasonable speed but you had to think of something to say in the gaps when giving a SRA to a C150!!
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I once did a 1/2 nm SRA "in anger" - amazing it was. I don't know if any of the locals are "current" in those any more. Certainly do 2nm ones quite often.
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Ahhhhhhhh, the good old days... I remember doing many an ASR approach as we call them here in the US. Bad news here though is that many airfields are doing away with the published approaches. Managers were tired of trying to keep up with the training standard as well as keeping up with the TERPS requirements for the approaches. It was easier to just do away with them.
There are still many facilities who do them, but they seem to be dwindeling here as well as the skill in doing them by most controllers...
regards
Scott
There are still many facilities who do them, but they seem to be dwindeling here as well as the skill in doing them by most controllers...
regards
Scott
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Since we're on SRA stories now.... not sure if I ever posted to thank the guys at Solent for the "interesting" SRA which I did at Bournemouth last year (my fault that it was "interesting", not theirs!)
It was VMC, scattered clouds at about 3000'. I was in a C172 under foggles, with a pilot friend in the right hand seat, a bit rusty on instrument flying so I thought I'd have a go at an ILS. When I contacted approach I was informed the ILS was unavailable, and offered the SRA instead.
I accepted. Note 1 - when you are not current, if something unexpected happens, then make sure you make yourself some extra time to deal with it! I didn't do that. I was hunting around for the plates for the SRA whilst getting closer and closer to the airfield. Found the plates, worked out my MDA, noted the missed approach procedure, etc, etc, etc, then realised I hadn't started my approach checklist. Oops!
I nearly managed to get the approach checklist finished before ATC started turning me onto final approach, and that's when I made the big mistake of setting my Direction Indicator whilst still in the turn. I could tell from the headings that the controller was giving me that the approach wasn't going quite according to plan, and quickly realised why. No problem, I'll just re-align the DI, says FFF, whilst still receiving turning instructions from ATC all the time. I'm not sure if the DI was ever reading correctly, nor how many turns the poor controller gave me whilst presumably sitting in front of a radar screen very confused over why her instructions weren't working out at all! But I reached my MDA, took the foggles off, and found myself only very slightly off track - so credit to the controller for making the best of my c0ck-up - and I became a slightly older and wiser pilot!
FFF
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It was VMC, scattered clouds at about 3000'. I was in a C172 under foggles, with a pilot friend in the right hand seat, a bit rusty on instrument flying so I thought I'd have a go at an ILS. When I contacted approach I was informed the ILS was unavailable, and offered the SRA instead.
I accepted. Note 1 - when you are not current, if something unexpected happens, then make sure you make yourself some extra time to deal with it! I didn't do that. I was hunting around for the plates for the SRA whilst getting closer and closer to the airfield. Found the plates, worked out my MDA, noted the missed approach procedure, etc, etc, etc, then realised I hadn't started my approach checklist. Oops!
I nearly managed to get the approach checklist finished before ATC started turning me onto final approach, and that's when I made the big mistake of setting my Direction Indicator whilst still in the turn. I could tell from the headings that the controller was giving me that the approach wasn't going quite according to plan, and quickly realised why. No problem, I'll just re-align the DI, says FFF, whilst still receiving turning instructions from ATC all the time. I'm not sure if the DI was ever reading correctly, nor how many turns the poor controller gave me whilst presumably sitting in front of a radar screen very confused over why her instructions weren't working out at all! But I reached my MDA, took the foggles off, and found myself only very slightly off track - so credit to the controller for making the best of my c0ck-up - and I became a slightly older and wiser pilot!
FFF
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More SRA stories
In 1977 I was in the flight deck of a viscount inbound to EGLL and the Captain was asked if he could accept an SRA for controller training. Although the weather was a bit bumpy the Captain obliged. At a range of about six miles the aircraft was hit by lightning and the cockpit illuminated in a massive bright flash. After regaining composure the ex RAF Captain turned to me and said "If that had happened in my RAF days I would have banged out"! Landed safetly though.
The scariest SRA'S that I ever got involved in was when as a cadet I was sent to Prestwick for Approach and Approach Radar training. The Royal Canadian Air Force had a maintenance base there for F104G Starfighters
As an inexperienced radar controller it always seemed to be my job to recover these widowmakers when an SRA was required. Not only do they fly the approach at 250 Knots all the way down but they need a QNH approach and have insuffient fuel for a second approach if the first one is missed. It basically is a continuous transmission 2nm talkdown as by the time you have said " Altitude should be xxx feet" the aircraft was at the next mile marker.
Musket 90 was the callsign that gave you a cold sweat.
I have completed hundreds of SRA's at my present airport mainly because two of the runways were not ILS equipped and until the introduction of VOR letdowns,an SRA was the only way down in poor weather.
The military aircraft based at my unit are required to complete a specified number of SRA's each year so I will usually get one or two every shift.
The most interesting scenario of late is the simulated speechless-no compass-no giro SRA. Excellent TRUCE exercise for your mates
The scariest SRA'S that I ever got involved in was when as a cadet I was sent to Prestwick for Approach and Approach Radar training. The Royal Canadian Air Force had a maintenance base there for F104G Starfighters
As an inexperienced radar controller it always seemed to be my job to recover these widowmakers when an SRA was required. Not only do they fly the approach at 250 Knots all the way down but they need a QNH approach and have insuffient fuel for a second approach if the first one is missed. It basically is a continuous transmission 2nm talkdown as by the time you have said " Altitude should be xxx feet" the aircraft was at the next mile marker.Musket 90 was the callsign that gave you a cold sweat.
I have completed hundreds of SRA's at my present airport mainly because two of the runways were not ILS equipped and until the introduction of VOR letdowns,an SRA was the only way down in poor weather.
The military aircraft based at my unit are required to complete a specified number of SRA's each year so I will usually get one or two every shift.
The most interesting scenario of late is the simulated speechless-no compass-no giro SRA. Excellent TRUCE exercise for your mates
