Not above/below XXXXft?
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Not above/below XXXXft?
I'm a bit confused by the phrase
"G-**** cleared to transit my zone not above/below XXXXft"
If i'm cleared to transit not above a particular altitude, do i stick that altitude or am i allowed to fly at a lower altitude?
If i have to stick to that altitude, why don't controllers just use something like
"G-**** cleared to transit my zone AT XXXXft" or "maintain XXXXft"
Thanks
Capt. Manuvar
"G-**** cleared to transit my zone not above/below XXXXft"
If i'm cleared to transit not above a particular altitude, do i stick that altitude or am i allowed to fly at a lower altitude?
If i have to stick to that altitude, why don't controllers just use something like
"G-**** cleared to transit my zone AT XXXXft" or "maintain XXXXft"
Thanks
Capt. Manuvar
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Hi
The reason that you are not cleared AT a specified level is for the fact that you are VFR and so therefore maywell mot be able to comply with that instruction all the time. Therefore it is easier to say 'GABCD cleared to transit the zone not above alt xxxx QNH' That means you can fly whatever level you want up to that level and subject to the usual legal restrictions.
The reason most probably is to protect IFR departures or arrivals above you.
Maybe a radar guy can give you a better more comprehensive answer.
Hope that helps
LORI
The reason that you are not cleared AT a specified level is for the fact that you are VFR and so therefore maywell mot be able to comply with that instruction all the time. Therefore it is easier to say 'GABCD cleared to transit the zone not above alt xxxx QNH' That means you can fly whatever level you want up to that level and subject to the usual legal restrictions.
The reason most probably is to protect IFR departures or arrivals above you.
Maybe a radar guy can give you a better more comprehensive answer.
Hope that helps
LORI
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Hi there!
LORI, what you have said seems correct.
It is the responsibility of a Pilor flying VFR to maintain his own terrain clearance, and to remain in VMC, 1000ft vertical 5kms etc etc. If ATC were to specify an altitude or flight level to fly AT, then this may put the pilot in a difficult position. Does he either disregard the atc clearance to avoid cloud or fly into cloud and breach the rules of his license.
To get around this ATC will issue an upper limit based on either a height, Altitude or flight level.
By placing a height restriction eg. Not above altitude 2000ft QNH then a radar controller can vector aircraft on top of them to 3000 ft QNH and maintain vertical seperation.
Whilst in some airspace IFR and VFR do not have to be seperated purely traffic information passed, i am sure that the pilot of a large aircraft doing upto 250 knots and trying to brief for landing etc does not want to be looking out of the window for a light aircraft (!) therefore, controllers will build in the seperation where necessary.
Hope that helps!
Turn It Off
LORI, what you have said seems correct.
It is the responsibility of a Pilor flying VFR to maintain his own terrain clearance, and to remain in VMC, 1000ft vertical 5kms etc etc. If ATC were to specify an altitude or flight level to fly AT, then this may put the pilot in a difficult position. Does he either disregard the atc clearance to avoid cloud or fly into cloud and breach the rules of his license.
To get around this ATC will issue an upper limit based on either a height, Altitude or flight level.
By placing a height restriction eg. Not above altitude 2000ft QNH then a radar controller can vector aircraft on top of them to 3000 ft QNH and maintain vertical seperation.
Whilst in some airspace IFR and VFR do not have to be seperated purely traffic information passed, i am sure that the pilot of a large aircraft doing upto 250 knots and trying to brief for landing etc does not want to be looking out of the window for a light aircraft (!) therefore, controllers will build in the seperation where necessary.
Hope that helps!
Turn It Off
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"Whilst in some airspace IFR and VFR do not have to be seperated purely traffic information passed,"
Hold yer horses there boy. Separation in uncontrolled airspace is not provided by ATC, but is nevertheless a requirement and is the responsibility of the PICs.
Hold yer horses there boy. Separation in uncontrolled airspace is not provided by ATC, but is nevertheless a requirement and is the responsibility of the PICs.
Seperation in uncontrolled airspace IS provided by the controller between IFR flights participating in an approach control service....or did you mean between IFR and VFR flights?...in which case no.
Wasnt sure if you were giving a specific reply to Turn It Off or quoting from 'the book'?!
Wasnt sure if you were giving a specific reply to Turn It Off or quoting from 'the book'?!
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....participating in an approach control service..
g) IFR flights in Class G airspace being provided with a service by an approach control unit
Couldn't just leave it alone, could i, it's any service from an approach control unit, which drags us back into the freecalls thread and, oh no, we'll be back to night flying soon.....
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Just to help with the Capt's original question - it may be helpful to explain another technique that may be used by controllers.
If a VFR aircraft calls for transit of a piece of airspace the controller ight ask if the pilot can accept a clearance at X000 feet. What this probably means is the controller would like the aircraft to stay at this level but can't really say this. If the pilot says yes the clearance will probably include an instruction to advise the controller if the pilot needs to deviate from this level. The number one rule for the pilot is to maintain VMC - don't be afraid to tell ATC that you need to climb or descend to stay in wx conditions that you are confortable with.
Different units tend to favour different techniques so you'll hear different clearances.
On the point of separation, ATC are only required to provide standard separation between a VFR flight and other aircraft in Class B or C airspace (VFR is not permitted in Class A). In other classes of airspace you'll be given traffic info on other flights. Some units will issue clearances that keep VFR aircraft apart from others but that's not the same as standard separation - again, different units have their own way of working. Rule number 2 is that pilots of VFR flights remain responsible for keeping a lookout for other traffic and for following the rules for avoiding collisions whatever the airspace and air traffic service that the aircraft may be receiving.
If a VFR aircraft calls for transit of a piece of airspace the controller ight ask if the pilot can accept a clearance at X000 feet. What this probably means is the controller would like the aircraft to stay at this level but can't really say this. If the pilot says yes the clearance will probably include an instruction to advise the controller if the pilot needs to deviate from this level. The number one rule for the pilot is to maintain VMC - don't be afraid to tell ATC that you need to climb or descend to stay in wx conditions that you are confortable with.
Different units tend to favour different techniques so you'll hear different clearances.
On the point of separation, ATC are only required to provide standard separation between a VFR flight and other aircraft in Class B or C airspace (VFR is not permitted in Class A). In other classes of airspace you'll be given traffic info on other flights. Some units will issue clearances that keep VFR aircraft apart from others but that's not the same as standard separation - again, different units have their own way of working. Rule number 2 is that pilots of VFR flights remain responsible for keeping a lookout for other traffic and for following the rules for avoiding collisions whatever the airspace and air traffic service that the aircraft may be receiving.
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Booklady
I agree that the book says
Standard vertical or horizontal separation shall be provided, unless otherwise specified, between:
g) IFR flights in Class G airspace being provided with a service by an approach control unit
However
I am intrested to know how given 2 aircraft on your frequency, operating 50+ miles from your aerodrome, neither able to communicate with any other agency, neither flight originating or terminating at your aerodrome, and both requesting a FIS from a procedural approach unit, you can provide any seperation in this instance given that you are not issuing nor able to issue possitive instruction.
[gets off hobby horse]
I agree that the book says
Standard vertical or horizontal separation shall be provided, unless otherwise specified, between:
g) IFR flights in Class G airspace being provided with a service by an approach control unit
However
I am intrested to know how given 2 aircraft on your frequency, operating 50+ miles from your aerodrome, neither able to communicate with any other agency, neither flight originating or terminating at your aerodrome, and both requesting a FIS from a procedural approach unit, you can provide any seperation in this instance given that you are not issuing nor able to issue possitive instruction.
[gets off hobby horse]
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tonup
I am wlling to recognise that very situation occurs regularly throughout the UK, except
mats1, section3, cahpter1 page2,
1.4.2 ...provide an air traffic control service accordingly
Anyway, back to your main twitter.
Mats1, section3, chapter 1, page 1
1.4.1 ...as determined by the aerodrome operator and approved by the CAA....
So it for the provider to make provision or the ATCO does it by 'the book'.
Are you suggesting that ATCOs just ignore those parts of the Manual that are hard to comply with? Does that include all separation when it gets busy? What other parts have you personally opted out of, and have you notified anybody?
The book is NOT perfect, but its what one will be judged against should things go wrong, in the absence relevant unit instructions. So it is to the benefit of individuals to seek provision from the ATS provider, or for all concerned to get the part 1 made workable.
I am wlling to recognise that very situation occurs regularly throughout the UK, except
not issuing nor able to issue positive instruction
mats1, section3, cahpter1 page2,
1.4.2 ...provide an air traffic control service accordingly
Anyway, back to your main twitter.
Mats1, section3, chapter 1, page 1
1.4.1 ...as determined by the aerodrome operator and approved by the CAA....
So it for the provider to make provision or the ATCO does it by 'the book'.
Are you suggesting that ATCOs just ignore those parts of the Manual that are hard to comply with? Does that include all separation when it gets busy? What other parts have you personally opted out of, and have you notified anybody?
The book is NOT perfect, but its what one will be judged against should things go wrong, in the absence relevant unit instructions. So it is to the benefit of individuals to seek provision from the ATS provider, or for all concerned to get the part 1 made workable.
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Spitoon,
The pilots of all flights are required to keep a lookout. That is regardless of what flight rules they operate under.
The rules for avoiding collisions (give way rules) also apply to all flights.
Thus a VFR flight and IFR flight on a collision course means that the pilots of both aircraft are required to comply with the requirement to look out and comply with the rules of the air for avoiding collisions.
That is another reason why controllers tend to add in some separation in class D between VFR and IFR flights.........it can get a bit embarrasing if we as an IFR flight turn towards another IFR flight in order to avoid (give way to) a VFR flight.
Of course when we are in cloud, there can't be any VFRs in there with us can there?
When operating into an aerodrome outside controlled airspace, we considder all instructions to be advisiory even if procedural service because being told to descend to an altitude may not be a good idea if there is an aircraft unknown to the controller below. Thus we will do what we are told whenever possible but may need to do otherwise.
Regards,
DFC
The pilots of all flights are required to keep a lookout. That is regardless of what flight rules they operate under.
The rules for avoiding collisions (give way rules) also apply to all flights.
Thus a VFR flight and IFR flight on a collision course means that the pilots of both aircraft are required to comply with the requirement to look out and comply with the rules of the air for avoiding collisions.
That is another reason why controllers tend to add in some separation in class D between VFR and IFR flights.........it can get a bit embarrasing if we as an IFR flight turn towards another IFR flight in order to avoid (give way to) a VFR flight.
Of course when we are in cloud, there can't be any VFRs in there with us can there?
When operating into an aerodrome outside controlled airspace, we considder all instructions to be advisiory even if procedural service because being told to descend to an altitude may not be a good idea if there is an aircraft unknown to the controller below. Thus we will do what we are told whenever possible but may need to do otherwise.
Regards,
DFC
DFC....there may not be any VFR's in cloud with you but what about an IFR in class G who wisely decides to not talk to anybody?!
I'm surprised Chilli Monster hasn't chipped in yet!! Still time yet I suppose...........
I'm surprised Chilli Monster hasn't chipped in yet!! Still time yet I suppose...........
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I'm just amazed all ths has come from a simple question:
It's not ambiguous, it means what it says, and yet someone still asks what it means?
Can I suggest night school, GCSE English Language
(And no - don't start me on IMC/VMC flights outside of CAS with no mode 'C' against which I have to take avoiding action because the bastard hasn't called me - even at the 3 mile point on the ILS because "It's outside the ATZ - I don't have to"
)
I'm a bit confused by the phrase
"G-**** cleared to transit my zone not above/below XXXXft"
If i'm cleared to transit not above a particular altitude, do i stick that altitude or am i allowed to fly at a lower altitude?
"G-**** cleared to transit my zone not above/below XXXXft"
If i'm cleared to transit not above a particular altitude, do i stick that altitude or am i allowed to fly at a lower altitude?
Can I suggest night school, GCSE English Language
(And no - don't start me on IMC/VMC flights outside of CAS with no mode 'C' against which I have to take avoiding action because the bastard hasn't called me - even at the 3 mile point on the ILS because "It's outside the ATZ - I don't have to"
)
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Tonup. At the risk of muddying already murky waters you said
1. Any aircraft requesting and receiving a FIS will get just that - a Flight Information Service e.g. Regional Pressure Setting, vague knowledge of traffic that may be in the area and perhaps the latest cricket score. There sure as hell ain't gonna be any form of separation.
2. Even if it were a radar unit you would get as above. No ident, nothing more.
So, the short answer to the question is.....you can't.
I am intrested to know how given 2 aircraft on your frequency, operating 50+ miles from your aerodrome, neither able to communicate with any other agency, neither flight originating or terminating at your aerodrome, and both requesting a FIS from a procedural approach unit, you can provide any seperation in this instance.......
2. Even if it were a radar unit you would get as above. No ident, nothing more.
So, the short answer to the question is.....you can't.
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Booklady, calm down, Bern Oulli must be an old instructor. Hopefully the students will read the manual, and thus see through his poor guidance. If they don't, well perhaps they'll all pass, work in CAS and never need to appreciate the nuances of ATSOCA.