American controllers and airports
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American controllers and airports
I am a Yank and flew for a US Airline until 2003. Now I fly for a non US airline from China and get back to the US fairly often. In addition, I fly my own Piper Dakota.
Now that I get to the US less and have a different call sign,I often find the responses somewhat different. I am not sure why.
TO put it in perspective,I have a number of controller friends and there are some great controllers through America and throughout the world. In fact on another PPRUNE forum was a guy named Mike fro Ft. Wayne.
I have to say that Americans often are not very accomodating and I am not sure why. Maybe it is the workload and maybe it is just culture.
When I fly my own airplane I often get treated as an amatuer and bsically get "bossed" around as if I am some skid row bum. In two days at a FLL Airport,it has been hassle. Yesterday when I landed, I helped the controller by making a turn off of the runway to expedite his traffic. Then I sat for :10 waiting to cross the runway that I landed on. Crossing the runway takes 10 seconds in a light airplane. I sat and sat.
In the past, other controllers have said,"Plan to cross behind landing traffic or Get your power up. You are crossing right after landing traffic passes". That would have been the end of it. But NOoooooooo. There were landings and departures even minute and I was the lowest priority. So I forgot about it.
Today at the same airport, I am 15 West on the final doing 120 which is a reasonable approach speed. My landing speed would be anywhere between 60 and 80. I could do what they wanted. There were two business jets behind me and I was yanked off of the final to give"way to them". Maybe they used more JetA or something,but in the US, it is first come, first served. At least I thought so.
In the last few months I have witnessed more unfair and surly attitudes and I am not sure why.
I am not sure how many on this forum are Americans and how many of you fly to or within America.I sure am growing disenchanted with my country's controllers recently. Is something going on or what? I'll be happy to give you more example with big or little airplanes.
Now that I get to the US less and have a different call sign,I often find the responses somewhat different. I am not sure why.
TO put it in perspective,I have a number of controller friends and there are some great controllers through America and throughout the world. In fact on another PPRUNE forum was a guy named Mike fro Ft. Wayne.
I have to say that Americans often are not very accomodating and I am not sure why. Maybe it is the workload and maybe it is just culture.
When I fly my own airplane I often get treated as an amatuer and bsically get "bossed" around as if I am some skid row bum. In two days at a FLL Airport,it has been hassle. Yesterday when I landed, I helped the controller by making a turn off of the runway to expedite his traffic. Then I sat for :10 waiting to cross the runway that I landed on. Crossing the runway takes 10 seconds in a light airplane. I sat and sat.
In the past, other controllers have said,"Plan to cross behind landing traffic or Get your power up. You are crossing right after landing traffic passes". That would have been the end of it. But NOoooooooo. There were landings and departures even minute and I was the lowest priority. So I forgot about it.
Today at the same airport, I am 15 West on the final doing 120 which is a reasonable approach speed. My landing speed would be anywhere between 60 and 80. I could do what they wanted. There were two business jets behind me and I was yanked off of the final to give"way to them". Maybe they used more JetA or something,but in the US, it is first come, first served. At least I thought so.
In the last few months I have witnessed more unfair and surly attitudes and I am not sure why.
I am not sure how many on this forum are Americans and how many of you fly to or within America.I sure am growing disenchanted with my country's controllers recently. Is something going on or what? I'll be happy to give you more example with big or little airplanes.
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Jim,
I can understand your frustration, and yes we have controllers that arrange their sequence by airspeed so when someone fast pops up on final they yank the slow guy out, I call this the "I can't sequence syndrom".
As for being stuck waiting to cross, the FAA has been killing us with rule changes and saying to a pilot, "plan on crossing behind the lear on short final", will result in having management pulling you into the office for some counseling, it's a definite NO, NO.
Whenever you get a chance the next time see if you can stop by the FLL tower and talk to the NATCA Facility Rep. Often just discussing the problems with the controllers will resolve them. Now if someone is being rude and obnocious then call the facility during normal hours and talk with the manager.
Mike
NATCA FWA
I can understand your frustration, and yes we have controllers that arrange their sequence by airspeed so when someone fast pops up on final they yank the slow guy out, I call this the "I can't sequence syndrom".
As for being stuck waiting to cross, the FAA has been killing us with rule changes and saying to a pilot, "plan on crossing behind the lear on short final", will result in having management pulling you into the office for some counseling, it's a definite NO, NO.
Whenever you get a chance the next time see if you can stop by the FLL tower and talk to the NATCA Facility Rep. Often just discussing the problems with the controllers will resolve them. Now if someone is being rude and obnocious then call the facility during normal hours and talk with the manager.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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Mike...Thanks for the message and I hope you (singular and lplural) realize I am not on the verge of throwing myself in a spinning propeller!
Is a lot of this pressure on controllers these days that didn't exist years ago? I started flying in 1966 and soloed at FLL Exec which is exactly where the incidents happened. I knew controllers in the non-federal tower 28 years ago and a few of them have remained as best friends since then. Today the FAA owns it. I tried to do everything as asked and got screwed. In the instant case, I made a right turn on an intersecting runways to expedite traffic. Then I got screwed waiting to cross the runway that I landed on. I could have been Mr. Dumb ass and just landed, taken my time, and then made the left turn....But I didn't and then it took a congressional amendment to cross. It cost me a lot of time and money to cross a runway which took 10 seconds.
I still don't understand why if an airplane faster than me by 20 kts is cruising behind me and I am some 7-8 miles from the airport why he gets priority. It was never like that. Obviously you can't fly a 40 kt CUB into a busy airport and not expect to get moved or jacked around. But I called 15 miles west,waited my turned and actually did what the controller said and moved north of the localizer to accommodate the faster traffic. Then she asked me to return to the localizer and then decided there was MORE traffic. SO she asked/TOLD me to go south of the localizer to once again accomodate some rich kid in his jet while I burned gas and took time. The entire cost/time burden was on me.
We are talking about a fairly busy GA airport now and MIA APP should have factored this in when they vectored the airplane towards the reliever airport.
Had this continued, I never would have landed!!!!! I did get down to fuel within an hour and it was not my fault. I am worried that a student/private guy would have just succumbed to ATC instructions and could have run out of gas while the fat cats headed for the runway and the beaches.
If I sound cyncial, I am. Av iation is first come first serve in America and the other guys could have waited or slowed also.
I also volunteered to use the intersecting runway with a bigger crosswind and my offer was not accepted.
Mike...Not sure I mentioned that it was FLL Exec. I used to spend HOURS in the non Federal tower there on top of Yankee Stadium and caught baseballs up there. So it is home to me.
Also,while this was going on,there were numerous departures and arrivals. I just didn't happen to be one of them. The Dakota is FAR from the slowest airplane on the earth.
Is a lot of this pressure on controllers these days that didn't exist years ago? I started flying in 1966 and soloed at FLL Exec which is exactly where the incidents happened. I knew controllers in the non-federal tower 28 years ago and a few of them have remained as best friends since then. Today the FAA owns it. I tried to do everything as asked and got screwed. In the instant case, I made a right turn on an intersecting runways to expedite traffic. Then I got screwed waiting to cross the runway that I landed on. I could have been Mr. Dumb ass and just landed, taken my time, and then made the left turn....But I didn't and then it took a congressional amendment to cross. It cost me a lot of time and money to cross a runway which took 10 seconds.
I still don't understand why if an airplane faster than me by 20 kts is cruising behind me and I am some 7-8 miles from the airport why he gets priority. It was never like that. Obviously you can't fly a 40 kt CUB into a busy airport and not expect to get moved or jacked around. But I called 15 miles west,waited my turned and actually did what the controller said and moved north of the localizer to accommodate the faster traffic. Then she asked me to return to the localizer and then decided there was MORE traffic. SO she asked/TOLD me to go south of the localizer to once again accomodate some rich kid in his jet while I burned gas and took time. The entire cost/time burden was on me.
We are talking about a fairly busy GA airport now and MIA APP should have factored this in when they vectored the airplane towards the reliever airport.
Had this continued, I never would have landed!!!!! I did get down to fuel within an hour and it was not my fault. I am worried that a student/private guy would have just succumbed to ATC instructions and could have run out of gas while the fat cats headed for the runway and the beaches.
If I sound cyncial, I am. Av iation is first come first serve in America and the other guys could have waited or slowed also.
I also volunteered to use the intersecting runway with a bigger crosswind and my offer was not accepted.
Mike...Not sure I mentioned that it was FLL Exec. I used to spend HOURS in the non Federal tower there on top of Yankee Stadium and caught baseballs up there. So it is home to me.
Also,while this was going on,there were numerous departures and arrivals. I just didn't happen to be one of them. The Dakota is FAR from the slowest airplane on the earth.
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American controllers - still #1
Jim,
The story you relate points to an issue we deal with in training new controllers in Approach Control - sequencing "snails" in with jets on final. The first thing we try to get trainees to understand is speed differential on the final. If I have an A/C such as a Dakota who'll average 90kts or so once inside the marker (5mi), that means it will take him a bit over three minutes to fly that last 5 miles. If I have a jet behind doing about 150kts, he's overtaking at a mile a minute, so he'll gain 3 miles on the Dakota. If the Dakota is at 5 miles and the jet is at 8 miles, the jet will bump into the Dakota over the threshold. If we're talking IFR seperation, that means I need the jet at 11 miles when the Dakota is at 5 miles.
With me so far?
Now, put the Dakota at 10 miles out. He'll average a bit higher speed, so say it will take him 6 minutes to get to the field. My jet, also a bit faster, will gain at least 6 miles, so I have 10mi + 6mi (for the intercept) +3miles seperation = 19 miles. (Most localizers are flight checked to 18 miles, btw). This really ties up my final, I'm sure you'll agree.
The solution is simple: Don't let the Dakota sit out there on a long final. Bring him in parallel or at an angle. Pick his slot, then "tuck him in" at the last moment. Meanwhile, let the fast guys blow on by!
So that's what's being taught, at least here in the Caribbean, and some controllers have a better grasp of it than others.
As to controller's attitudes, I think a bit of the tension you note on frequency is indeed due to changes that have taken place in the past few years. Just as going to the airport and climbing in a big jet for a trip to grandmother's house is just not as fun now as it was a few years back, working traffic is less fun too. Of course there are the often mentioned reasons: short staffing, some facilities underpaid, management that is no better that back in '81, new technology that often causes more problems than it's worth and on and on. I get the feeling that lots of controllers who have been hacking away at it for about 20 years now are getting tired. Remember, we've never had so many "old dogs" working traffic as now - another result of the '81 strike. A much higher percentage of controllers are now beginning to look seriously at the day they'll retire and perhaps some days they just feel "I've had just about enough of this ****."
That being said, however, I don't think you'll find any band of ATC professionals anywhere in the world who do a better job with what they have to work with than USA controllers. Sit in at Atlanta or Chicago, or any American facility, to watch controllers at work and you'll come away with a sense of respect and awe for what they do. They're pretty remarkable and a true national resource!
Rich
The story you relate points to an issue we deal with in training new controllers in Approach Control - sequencing "snails" in with jets on final. The first thing we try to get trainees to understand is speed differential on the final. If I have an A/C such as a Dakota who'll average 90kts or so once inside the marker (5mi), that means it will take him a bit over three minutes to fly that last 5 miles. If I have a jet behind doing about 150kts, he's overtaking at a mile a minute, so he'll gain 3 miles on the Dakota. If the Dakota is at 5 miles and the jet is at 8 miles, the jet will bump into the Dakota over the threshold. If we're talking IFR seperation, that means I need the jet at 11 miles when the Dakota is at 5 miles.
With me so far?
Now, put the Dakota at 10 miles out. He'll average a bit higher speed, so say it will take him 6 minutes to get to the field. My jet, also a bit faster, will gain at least 6 miles, so I have 10mi + 6mi (for the intercept) +3miles seperation = 19 miles. (Most localizers are flight checked to 18 miles, btw). This really ties up my final, I'm sure you'll agree.
The solution is simple: Don't let the Dakota sit out there on a long final. Bring him in parallel or at an angle. Pick his slot, then "tuck him in" at the last moment. Meanwhile, let the fast guys blow on by!
So that's what's being taught, at least here in the Caribbean, and some controllers have a better grasp of it than others.
As to controller's attitudes, I think a bit of the tension you note on frequency is indeed due to changes that have taken place in the past few years. Just as going to the airport and climbing in a big jet for a trip to grandmother's house is just not as fun now as it was a few years back, working traffic is less fun too. Of course there are the often mentioned reasons: short staffing, some facilities underpaid, management that is no better that back in '81, new technology that often causes more problems than it's worth and on and on. I get the feeling that lots of controllers who have been hacking away at it for about 20 years now are getting tired. Remember, we've never had so many "old dogs" working traffic as now - another result of the '81 strike. A much higher percentage of controllers are now beginning to look seriously at the day they'll retire and perhaps some days they just feel "I've had just about enough of this ****."
That being said, however, I don't think you'll find any band of ATC professionals anywhere in the world who do a better job with what they have to work with than USA controllers. Sit in at Atlanta or Chicago, or any American facility, to watch controllers at work and you'll come away with a sense of respect and awe for what they do. They're pretty remarkable and a true national resource!
Rich
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Jim,
Two things I will comment on.
First, there is no such thing as "First come, first served" any more at busy airports. It's "Most efficient", which basically means the most planes in the least time. The Sentence in the 7110.65 says:
As you noted, a Piper Cub on a 10 mile final could seriously disrupt the flow of biz-jets into an airport, so does a Cherokee, and even an old Citation. It's just a matter of degree. I understand your frustration at being moved out of line when you were doing 120 kts. I can recall being vectored off the final repeatedly at busy airports in the '70s while flying a Beech Sierra at Full Throttle .
It isn't a new phenomenon.
Put another way, you're 5 out doing 110-120 kts, so the fellow behind needs to be about 5 behind you doing 145 kts, and the fellow behind him therefore needs to be 5 more miles out doing 170, and the fellow behind Him needs to be another 5 miles out doing 200 kts or so. So now you have a 20 mile final that's only got four airplanes on it. This to allow for "compression" as the aircraft nearing the runway must eventually slow down to land. (We try real hard not to have jets doing Vref 20 miles out, as the howls of protest get quite loud, rightly so.)
Jim, you cannot Survive working a busy finals position with limited airspace if you can only get FOUR aircraft on a 20 mile final, though such a sequence might work just fine during slower periods.
Then there are some other factors which come into play, such as airport layout, (are they using closely-spaced parallels, same runway for departures, or another, etc.) Winds, and whether visual or instrument approaches are in use. Just yesterday, I was working ILS approaches with 25 kt headwinds at the surface. Compute the spacing required when a Cherokee is only doing 60 KNOTS groundspeed from 7 miles out. (that's SEVEN minutes + to land and clear the runway) It's ugly. It happened several times yesterday. And don't forget, in the exact same conditions, you're being fed arrivals on downwind that are doing 280 kts over the ground. (210 kts IAS corrected for TAS and tailwinds, plus a nominal cockpit "fudge factor".)
The second thought I want to leave you with is that South Florida is at the PEAK of it's travel season, and the last week we've gotten almost daily flow control restrictions to FLL, among others. So some of those "Fat Cat" biz-jets that passed you on your 5-10 minute vector delay had in fact been delayed by an HOUR or more on the ground at their departure airport before takeoff. That's not a joke, I worked the Tower last Thursday, and some of the delays to FLL were that long.
I hope you don't take this as a "flame" directed at you personally. I'm just trying to explain "our side" of the picture.
Two things I will comment on.
First, there is no such thing as "First come, first served" any more at busy airports. It's "Most efficient", which basically means the most planes in the least time. The Sentence in the 7110.65 says:
Provide air traffic control service to aircraft on a "first come, first served" basis as circumstances permit, except the following:
It isn't a new phenomenon.Put another way, you're 5 out doing 110-120 kts, so the fellow behind needs to be about 5 behind you doing 145 kts, and the fellow behind him therefore needs to be 5 more miles out doing 170, and the fellow behind Him needs to be another 5 miles out doing 200 kts or so. So now you have a 20 mile final that's only got four airplanes on it. This to allow for "compression" as the aircraft nearing the runway must eventually slow down to land. (We try real hard not to have jets doing Vref 20 miles out, as the howls of protest get quite loud, rightly so.)
Jim, you cannot Survive working a busy finals position with limited airspace if you can only get FOUR aircraft on a 20 mile final, though such a sequence might work just fine during slower periods.
Then there are some other factors which come into play, such as airport layout, (are they using closely-spaced parallels, same runway for departures, or another, etc.) Winds, and whether visual or instrument approaches are in use. Just yesterday, I was working ILS approaches with 25 kt headwinds at the surface. Compute the spacing required when a Cherokee is only doing 60 KNOTS groundspeed from 7 miles out. (that's SEVEN minutes + to land and clear the runway) It's ugly. It happened several times yesterday. And don't forget, in the exact same conditions, you're being fed arrivals on downwind that are doing 280 kts over the ground. (210 kts IAS corrected for TAS and tailwinds, plus a nominal cockpit "fudge factor".)
The second thought I want to leave you with is that South Florida is at the PEAK of it's travel season, and the last week we've gotten almost daily flow control restrictions to FLL, among others. So some of those "Fat Cat" biz-jets that passed you on your 5-10 minute vector delay had in fact been delayed by an HOUR or more on the ground at their departure airport before takeoff. That's not a joke, I worked the Tower last Thursday, and some of the delays to FLL were that long.
I hope you don't take this as a "flame" directed at you personally. I'm just trying to explain "our side" of the picture.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Obviously you can't fly a 40 kt CUB into a busy airport and not expect to get moved or jacked around
Sorry - that doesn't help answer your question at all, but it gave me a good oportunity to dig up some memories!
FFF
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There is an easier formula to use for final spacing a faster behind a slower acft.
Look at acft #1 speed (assuming this is the slower acft) the slower acft doesn't necessarily have to be the first acft in the sequence.
If the following acft is twice as fast on final: You need two times the distance to the thresshold plus three miles.
If the following acft is three times as fast on final: You need three times the distance to the thresshold plus three miles. (and so on, but you get the geist of the formula)
The plus three miles is to maintain IFR spacing on final.
Since I get to sequence F16's behind Cessna's and Cherokees then you can imagine how much fun it is to space four times the distance on final.
The challenge is seeing that huge gap on final and not trying to stick someone in it, and then going ah crap.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Look at acft #1 speed (assuming this is the slower acft) the slower acft doesn't necessarily have to be the first acft in the sequence.
If the following acft is twice as fast on final: You need two times the distance to the thresshold plus three miles.
If the following acft is three times as fast on final: You need three times the distance to the thresshold plus three miles. (and so on, but you get the geist of the formula)
The plus three miles is to maintain IFR spacing on final.
Since I get to sequence F16's behind Cessna's and Cherokees then you can imagine how much fun it is to space four times the distance on final.
The challenge is seeing that huge gap on final and not trying to stick someone in it, and then going ah crap.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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WLATC...thanks for the message and a couple of pther good posts to keep me busy while I cool down <bfg>!
I still think I got screwed two days in a row. Maybe next time I should volunteer for anything and just pretend if Mr. Student pilot and ask for progressive taxi and say "say again" as I cruise for the outer marker in!!!!
But to the issue, that was a good post. IN FLL area, MIA APP sequences airplanes and maybe they just keep shooting airplanes at the airport and let local sort it out. BTW, nobody asked me what speed I was doing or what I could do. I could have maintained 120Kt to a 1/2 final and the Citation could have slowed a little. I was expected to take the biggest hit of them all.
As an aside, I find that ATC (mostly center) when they see a speed conflict, the ask airplane #1, "what is your speed?" Then they slow airplane #2 down to airplane #1's speed. Rarely do they ask #1 to speed up. The usual thing is airplane #1 is paying attention and know he is the speed bump or he could go a little faster and a Captain may be letting the F/O fly at his pace. Some companies pay by flight time and I know some people fly slower just for that reason. Anyway, some in ATC are problem fixers and others like to play policemen and just sort out the traffic from running into each other. That isn't meant to incite and often ATC doesn't have time. But I could have done more in the instant case had the controller accepted my offer to land on another runway or keep my speed up. They just thought I was some beginner and anybody who flies an airplane under 10,000 pounds if going to slow to 60 kts. 10 miles out.
I find it interesting too that one poster says that avaiation is not first come, first served anymore.
A few days ago at Key West, there were 4 airplanes waiting for take off. They were all destined for FLL and MIA and places with flow and release times.
On taxi out I saw the problem and asked if I could go at an intersecting taxiway and take off immediately. The answer was yes,but I had to suggest it. Had I continued fat , dumb, and happy, I would have sat in the same line. Are controllers today NOT allowed to suggest alternatives? EYW is about 5,000' long and the intersection may have reduced it to 3500'
On the last point, I have sat in some 30 US towers and probably 20 APP/DEP control facilities all prior to 9/11. I don't think we can go there any more and possibly never again. Ideas???
Maybe like pilots controllers come in differing abilities.
I had a friend at MIA that was a working excellent supervisor (are all supervisors good at working traffic???). One day I came in in a 757 and they were landing west. More of a joke I asked for 9R and a short approach. My friend knew me for almost 30 years at the time and we would use that lingo in FLL. He said, cleared for a visual to 9R and make short approach!!! To my amazement, he made a whole and the rest of the airport was using 30 and 27R. I landed, taxied in and to this day nobody could figure out how I got 9R!
I have very fond admiration for controllers and I guess when I see a performance that is not good, I wonder why. Maybe there are many reasons.
Vector4 fun...Are you in MIA APP and I certainly don't take it personally and I thank you for your answer.
I know what you are saying about FLL and South FL being at peak. The customs wait at FLL Exec was over a hour and there were 7 lined up. The ground guy was frustrated because the arriving aircarft couldn't understand why they couldn't go straight to customs. I suppose Customs may have been at a heightened alert with the terror level and the post 9/11 situation.
Lemme ask the controller guys this:
If the speed issue is critical, then wny not direct airplanes who will eventually have a final approach speed (last 3 miles) to downwind positions or overheads to kill time. In the case of FLL EXEC, I thought the controller was simply pointing out FLL Int'l arriving traffic and not MY traffic or the one that was taking my spot<bfg>. If those under 100 kts. were not allowed generally to make straight in approaches, then this might help the problem.
Those in Florida or who work at Florida facilites know that a lot of traffic comes from the west on predominantly east west runways from Tamiami to Palm Beach.
Also for those in South Florida, it is intereting on the 1 day from south to north and north to south to the Keys that some controllers required me to be off shore and others required me to remain clear of the 1500 foot level even further offshore. Is there a rule or just judge? They set the altitude of 1500 or below.
I still think I got screwed two days in a row. Maybe next time I should volunteer for anything and just pretend if Mr. Student pilot and ask for progressive taxi and say "say again" as I cruise for the outer marker in!!!!
But to the issue, that was a good post. IN FLL area, MIA APP sequences airplanes and maybe they just keep shooting airplanes at the airport and let local sort it out. BTW, nobody asked me what speed I was doing or what I could do. I could have maintained 120Kt to a 1/2 final and the Citation could have slowed a little. I was expected to take the biggest hit of them all.
As an aside, I find that ATC (mostly center) when they see a speed conflict, the ask airplane #1, "what is your speed?" Then they slow airplane #2 down to airplane #1's speed. Rarely do they ask #1 to speed up. The usual thing is airplane #1 is paying attention and know he is the speed bump or he could go a little faster and a Captain may be letting the F/O fly at his pace. Some companies pay by flight time and I know some people fly slower just for that reason. Anyway, some in ATC are problem fixers and others like to play policemen and just sort out the traffic from running into each other. That isn't meant to incite and often ATC doesn't have time. But I could have done more in the instant case had the controller accepted my offer to land on another runway or keep my speed up. They just thought I was some beginner and anybody who flies an airplane under 10,000 pounds if going to slow to 60 kts. 10 miles out.
I find it interesting too that one poster says that avaiation is not first come, first served anymore.
A few days ago at Key West, there were 4 airplanes waiting for take off. They were all destined for FLL and MIA and places with flow and release times.
On taxi out I saw the problem and asked if I could go at an intersecting taxiway and take off immediately. The answer was yes,but I had to suggest it. Had I continued fat , dumb, and happy, I would have sat in the same line. Are controllers today NOT allowed to suggest alternatives? EYW is about 5,000' long and the intersection may have reduced it to 3500'
On the last point, I have sat in some 30 US towers and probably 20 APP/DEP control facilities all prior to 9/11. I don't think we can go there any more and possibly never again. Ideas???
Maybe like pilots controllers come in differing abilities.
I had a friend at MIA that was a working excellent supervisor (are all supervisors good at working traffic???). One day I came in in a 757 and they were landing west. More of a joke I asked for 9R and a short approach. My friend knew me for almost 30 years at the time and we would use that lingo in FLL. He said, cleared for a visual to 9R and make short approach!!! To my amazement, he made a whole and the rest of the airport was using 30 and 27R. I landed, taxied in and to this day nobody could figure out how I got 9R!
I have very fond admiration for controllers and I guess when I see a performance that is not good, I wonder why. Maybe there are many reasons.
Vector4 fun...Are you in MIA APP and I certainly don't take it personally and I thank you for your answer.
I know what you are saying about FLL and South FL being at peak. The customs wait at FLL Exec was over a hour and there were 7 lined up. The ground guy was frustrated because the arriving aircarft couldn't understand why they couldn't go straight to customs. I suppose Customs may have been at a heightened alert with the terror level and the post 9/11 situation.
Lemme ask the controller guys this:
If the speed issue is critical, then wny not direct airplanes who will eventually have a final approach speed (last 3 miles) to downwind positions or overheads to kill time. In the case of FLL EXEC, I thought the controller was simply pointing out FLL Int'l arriving traffic and not MY traffic or the one that was taking my spot<bfg>. If those under 100 kts. were not allowed generally to make straight in approaches, then this might help the problem.
Those in Florida or who work at Florida facilites know that a lot of traffic comes from the west on predominantly east west runways from Tamiami to Palm Beach.
Also for those in South Florida, it is intereting on the 1 day from south to north and north to south to the Keys that some controllers required me to be off shore and others required me to remain clear of the 1500 foot level even further offshore. Is there a rule or just judge? They set the altitude of 1500 or below.
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If I may just ask a European question of the pilots who just lurv the ATC in the US. 
How come you guys listen to all the non standard, conversational, R/T all day long in the US and never miss a call and yet you travel in Europe and we almost have to launch Air Defence aircraft every day because you won't reply on the R/T ?
How come you guys listen to all the non standard, conversational, R/T all day long in the US and never miss a call and yet you travel in Europe and we almost have to launch Air Defence aircraft every day because you won't reply on the R/T ?
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Hi Jim;
The first come first served is something that we strive for in moving traffic, however at the busier airports the rule is to get as many aircraft on the ground as you can in the most efficient manner. That makes getting slower aircraft into the busy airports a bit of a challenge that sometimes is rather daunting due the sheer numbers of aircraft that are arriving and the limited amount of airspace for a particular airport. In the case of FLL they are indeed busy and have been experiencing traffic flow management delays due to the congestion.
Now as to treating you as you say like a low time pilot, we don't know the levels of expertise in each aircraft and have to sometimes make some assmptions which aren't always accurate about what a pilot can and can't do. Some of these assumptions are also caused by a controller having tried to make something work with a particular type of aircraft or company and recieved a ramming of the most uncomfortable type in a generally lower rear postierior area. Controller then decides that they aren't going to do that again. <shrug> Not good for the rest of the good pilots out there, but once burned, it is hard to gain trust again and you just play it safe, which as a Safety Rep, I can not fault any controller on. We are paid for safe and the rest of the stuff is a by product of what we do and enjoy doing, that would be moving as much metal we we possibly can.
For the Center stuff asking for speeds, most of us know what the norms are for the types of aircraft. If the aircraft is doing the norm, then we are normally not going to ask for more and will slow the other one down a bit. Sometimes we don't slow the front one down due to it trying to climb and with the advent of the RJ's of every ilk out there, we can't afford to get any less of a climb rate out of them. If we asked for more speed, we would have to have them do a dippsy doddle to get going <G>. They just don't have any preformance to speak of...
You have probably figured it out already, but it isn't going to get any better here. We are fitting more and more aircraft into the system and there is only so much that you can do with limited runways and airspace, something is going to give. If you think it is fun now, just wait until all those little personal barbie jets come out that are going to be having somewhat low time pilots flying... It is going to a real joy <G>.
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman
The first come first served is something that we strive for in moving traffic, however at the busier airports the rule is to get as many aircraft on the ground as you can in the most efficient manner. That makes getting slower aircraft into the busy airports a bit of a challenge that sometimes is rather daunting due the sheer numbers of aircraft that are arriving and the limited amount of airspace for a particular airport. In the case of FLL they are indeed busy and have been experiencing traffic flow management delays due to the congestion.
Now as to treating you as you say like a low time pilot, we don't know the levels of expertise in each aircraft and have to sometimes make some assmptions which aren't always accurate about what a pilot can and can't do. Some of these assumptions are also caused by a controller having tried to make something work with a particular type of aircraft or company and recieved a ramming of the most uncomfortable type in a generally lower rear postierior area. Controller then decides that they aren't going to do that again. <shrug> Not good for the rest of the good pilots out there, but once burned, it is hard to gain trust again and you just play it safe, which as a Safety Rep, I can not fault any controller on. We are paid for safe and the rest of the stuff is a by product of what we do and enjoy doing, that would be moving as much metal we we possibly can.
For the Center stuff asking for speeds, most of us know what the norms are for the types of aircraft. If the aircraft is doing the norm, then we are normally not going to ask for more and will slow the other one down a bit. Sometimes we don't slow the front one down due to it trying to climb and with the advent of the RJ's of every ilk out there, we can't afford to get any less of a climb rate out of them. If we asked for more speed, we would have to have them do a dippsy doddle to get going <G>. They just don't have any preformance to speak of...
You have probably figured it out already, but it isn't going to get any better here. We are fitting more and more aircraft into the system and there is only so much that you can do with limited runways and airspace, something is going to give. If you think it is fun now, just wait until all those little personal barbie jets come out that are going to be having somewhat low time pilots flying... It is going to a real joy <G>.
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman
Findo
I think flying over here must be rubbing off on your pilots. Nothing like hearing Speedbird accepting a taxi clearance at LAX with numerous taxiways involved by answering "roger"
As an end user I am overall happy with the service I receive. I do cringe when I hear controllers who seem to hate pilots and convey that with attitude.
What I do see from time to time is not comprehending how intergrated the system is. A few months back we were held down to FL230 for a looong time. It was for traffic, so no heartburn. It did however eat up most of the contingency fuel trucking along so low. Nearing the destination we were told we were number one in the conga line and max forward and dropped to an intermediate altitude. We simply couldn't do the max forward down low again and land with a comfy reserve. Had to decline to which you would have thought we had stolen the Christmas presents from the orphanage. I of course don't expect him to have knowledge of what happened a thousand miles, a dozen frequencies and 3 or 4 centers before. I just don't feel I need to answer in paragraph form why I have to decline a clearance. A simple "unable, not enough fuel" should suffice.
I think flying over here must be rubbing off on your pilots. Nothing like hearing Speedbird accepting a taxi clearance at LAX with numerous taxiways involved by answering "roger"
As an end user I am overall happy with the service I receive. I do cringe when I hear controllers who seem to hate pilots and convey that with attitude.
What I do see from time to time is not comprehending how intergrated the system is. A few months back we were held down to FL230 for a looong time. It was for traffic, so no heartburn. It did however eat up most of the contingency fuel trucking along so low. Nearing the destination we were told we were number one in the conga line and max forward and dropped to an intermediate altitude. We simply couldn't do the max forward down low again and land with a comfy reserve. Had to decline to which you would have thought we had stolen the Christmas presents from the orphanage. I of course don't expect him to have knowledge of what happened a thousand miles, a dozen frequencies and 3 or 4 centers before. I just don't feel I need to answer in paragraph form why I have to decline a clearance. A simple "unable, not enough fuel" should suffice.
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Steve-Findo and Y'all
First let me say thanks for an interesting thread and no off-the-wall answers. They are appreciated.
I actually think if the lday who jumped all over me last week and I were sitting in a bar (I hope I am still o.k.) that we could have talked it over and she would have told me her reasons for doing what she did. Maybe she had had some problems with Cessnas or Cherokees or one particular flight school or company.
Also, the Dakota in the Piper line is far from the slowest airplane on the block. I suppose if one uses a call sign of Cessna you could be a 150 or a Citation!
Do controllers actually have problems with one company versus another? So as not to incriminate anyone currently working, do people have problems with UAL,AA,USAIR, or Northwest or any particular company as being very cooperative or very uncooperative in general?
Also I never realized that anybody in Europe had trouble with an given nationality like the US guys. Many times a high pitched voice of a female is hard to understand(I'm in trouble now) ,but in almost every place in the world I have not noticed any controllers from any one country to be harder to understand than others. Often you have to say, "say again". I will say some controlelrs want immediate answers immediately otherwise they call again.
For the controllers...does it drive you crazy when airline or Civilian XXX says,"XXX123 request". Airline 123 go ahead. Airline 123 requests 350. Airline 123 climb to and maintain 350.
Couldn't this entire diatribe been done intially by the airline 123 and asked for 350?After all, this isn't Flight Service who generally want to establish a contact first before they start considering your request.
For west coast and anybody in California...(hard to know who is reading,but it is agood exchange).
Do you remember about 30-45 days agao when it rained, hailed, and sorta snowed in LAX? LAX closed for a while and the schools closed the next day and it was an very unusual weather day in LAX. We were coming from TPE and headed to LAX. We went by SFO which was clear (unusual) and LAX was the problem. We had a paper alternate of ONT and the Company did not want us there. Their choice was SFO where we fly daily. We came down the CA coast and the controller just acted as it was "no big deal" even though we had received messages from dispatch that LAX had "closed". Well, it had throughout the day and was open for anyone with fuel to come in and land. I asked if there were any holds between SFO and LAX and whether the LAX was really closed. It was a cynical answer and it certainly did not give me a warm, fuzzy feeling. The truth was we couldn't cruise down to LAX, Hold, consider ONT, make a go-around, and then head to SFO which was clear. I could do maybe 2/3rds of those.
We were given 250 kts. from SFO and that light a light. SO I asked about holds. The answer was no holds. I asked about whether it was 250 to LAX. The answer was probably.
Then out of the blue it was, "resume normal speed". Well that was MACH .86 or some 330. I just said that I didn't want to accelerate to this speed and then hold nor do 160 kts for the last 50 miles. Just the FACTS MAM.
Eventually, it was go fast. O.k. Great. then the next SECTOR (really) gave us 250 KTS and that is what started to worry us which was confidence in the system. About that time we came to the realization that it was not possible to get accurate information and the chances of getting on the ground and keeping SFO OR ONT were qauestionable at best,so I asked for a 180 degree turn to SFO. The guy assumed I knew every intersection in CA! Well I knew most only because of my past life. It was a true goat rope back to SFO and it was busy all of the way. It was a wise choice to divert. When the parties aren't sure nor comfortable on irregular operations nights,then you can't take chances.
Again, I appreciate those readin' and writin',but I wonder how the US is going to go to any type of FREE FLIGHT which was proposed years ago and doesn't appear to ever be possible in our busy environment. Controllers will have lifetime job security!!!!
First let me say thanks for an interesting thread and no off-the-wall answers. They are appreciated.
I actually think if the lday who jumped all over me last week and I were sitting in a bar (I hope I am still o.k.) that we could have talked it over and she would have told me her reasons for doing what she did. Maybe she had had some problems with Cessnas or Cherokees or one particular flight school or company.
Also, the Dakota in the Piper line is far from the slowest airplane on the block. I suppose if one uses a call sign of Cessna you could be a 150 or a Citation!
Do controllers actually have problems with one company versus another? So as not to incriminate anyone currently working, do people have problems with UAL,AA,USAIR, or Northwest or any particular company as being very cooperative or very uncooperative in general?
Also I never realized that anybody in Europe had trouble with an given nationality like the US guys. Many times a high pitched voice of a female is hard to understand(I'm in trouble now) ,but in almost every place in the world I have not noticed any controllers from any one country to be harder to understand than others. Often you have to say, "say again". I will say some controlelrs want immediate answers immediately otherwise they call again.
For the controllers...does it drive you crazy when airline or Civilian XXX says,"XXX123 request". Airline 123 go ahead. Airline 123 requests 350. Airline 123 climb to and maintain 350.
Couldn't this entire diatribe been done intially by the airline 123 and asked for 350?After all, this isn't Flight Service who generally want to establish a contact first before they start considering your request.
For west coast and anybody in California...(hard to know who is reading,but it is agood exchange).
Do you remember about 30-45 days agao when it rained, hailed, and sorta snowed in LAX? LAX closed for a while and the schools closed the next day and it was an very unusual weather day in LAX. We were coming from TPE and headed to LAX. We went by SFO which was clear (unusual) and LAX was the problem. We had a paper alternate of ONT and the Company did not want us there. Their choice was SFO where we fly daily. We came down the CA coast and the controller just acted as it was "no big deal" even though we had received messages from dispatch that LAX had "closed". Well, it had throughout the day and was open for anyone with fuel to come in and land. I asked if there were any holds between SFO and LAX and whether the LAX was really closed. It was a cynical answer and it certainly did not give me a warm, fuzzy feeling. The truth was we couldn't cruise down to LAX, Hold, consider ONT, make a go-around, and then head to SFO which was clear. I could do maybe 2/3rds of those.
We were given 250 kts. from SFO and that light a light. SO I asked about holds. The answer was no holds. I asked about whether it was 250 to LAX. The answer was probably.
Then out of the blue it was, "resume normal speed". Well that was MACH .86 or some 330. I just said that I didn't want to accelerate to this speed and then hold nor do 160 kts for the last 50 miles. Just the FACTS MAM.
Eventually, it was go fast. O.k. Great. then the next SECTOR (really) gave us 250 KTS and that is what started to worry us which was confidence in the system. About that time we came to the realization that it was not possible to get accurate information and the chances of getting on the ground and keeping SFO OR ONT were qauestionable at best,so I asked for a 180 degree turn to SFO. The guy assumed I knew every intersection in CA! Well I knew most only because of my past life. It was a true goat rope back to SFO and it was busy all of the way. It was a wise choice to divert. When the parties aren't sure nor comfortable on irregular operations nights,then you can't take chances.
Again, I appreciate those readin' and writin',but I wonder how the US is going to go to any type of FREE FLIGHT which was proposed years ago and doesn't appear to ever be possible in our busy environment. Controllers will have lifetime job security!!!!
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Hi Jim,
No, I'm not in MIA, but in Texas, not too far from Scott.
Jim, as someone already (I think) said, it's a very good technique to keep your slow VFRs out of the final when busy, vector them to a point about 2 miles offset from the approach end, and then tuck them in any gaps that might develop. Overheads? If you mean military style, that certainly possible, but not many Cherokee drivers know how to fly one properly, or are inclined to. If you meant loiter overhead, again, possible, but likely to generate more than a few nusaince TCAS alerts. But in all those cases, you'd have to have some extensive pre-arranged coordination in place between the approach controller in MIA, and the tower in FLL, so everyone was "on the same page". It's not as easy as it first sounds. But it might be very worthwhile to talk to the folks at FLL and/or MIA to see if there isn't a procedure that might be worked out. I've been at several airports where there were "un-published" shortcuts.
As Scott said, we have to base our assumptions on the "average" Cherokee. To most controllers, a PA28 is a PA28. That's what it says in the flight plan and data tag. We don't often know if it's a -140, -160, -180, or a -235. And the average Cherokee pilot doesn't fly that much different in one than the other, except perhaps in climb. The average Cherokee pilot is not a retired Military/Airline pilot either. So the simple fact is, if the controller doesn't know you, he/she IS probably going to treat you like a "typical" 200 hr, I flew once last month, Private Pilot.
It's true that there have been times when I knew the pilot, I've done/tried things I would have never considered otherwise. I used to know a fellow with a Luscombe 8A who could make it sit up and bark, and he got all kinds of "special" treatment, because I could absolutely count on him. On the other hand, he would also happily loiter at 20 kts GS on a 1 mile final while I launched one departure after another in front of him. He flew for fun and was seldom in a hurry.
It sounds as if you're unhappy flying out of an airport that's extremely busy this time of year, it's approach control is handled by another facility miles away, you're being worked by a controller who might work finals at FLL 4-5 hours a week, but is more comfortable sequencing 757's to MIA, and who doesn't know you from a shiny new Private Pilot. That's quite possibly all true. It's a different world from 30-40 years ago when controlled airspace was smaller, the rules and procedures more flexible, and when the approach control was one or two scopes just below the tower cab. We often knew the pilots by voice and they knew us too. I remember those days too, but there's no going back now.
Vector4 fun...Are you in MIA APP and I certainly don't take it personally and I thank you for your answer.
Lemme ask the controller guys this:
If the speed issue is critical, then wny not direct airplanes who will eventually have a final approach speed (last 3 miles) to downwind positions or overheads to kill time. In the case of FLL EXEC, I thought the controller was simply pointing out FLL Int'l arriving traffic and not MY traffic or the one that was taking my spot<bfg>. If those under 100 kts. were not allowed generally to make straight in approaches, then this might help the problem.
If the speed issue is critical, then wny not direct airplanes who will eventually have a final approach speed (last 3 miles) to downwind positions or overheads to kill time. In the case of FLL EXEC, I thought the controller was simply pointing out FLL Int'l arriving traffic and not MY traffic or the one that was taking my spot<bfg>. If those under 100 kts. were not allowed generally to make straight in approaches, then this might help the problem.
Jim, as someone already (I think) said, it's a very good technique to keep your slow VFRs out of the final when busy, vector them to a point about 2 miles offset from the approach end, and then tuck them in any gaps that might develop. Overheads? If you mean military style, that certainly possible, but not many Cherokee drivers know how to fly one properly, or are inclined to. If you meant loiter overhead, again, possible, but likely to generate more than a few nusaince TCAS alerts. But in all those cases, you'd have to have some extensive pre-arranged coordination in place between the approach controller in MIA, and the tower in FLL, so everyone was "on the same page". It's not as easy as it first sounds. But it might be very worthwhile to talk to the folks at FLL and/or MIA to see if there isn't a procedure that might be worked out. I've been at several airports where there were "un-published" shortcuts.
As Scott said, we have to base our assumptions on the "average" Cherokee. To most controllers, a PA28 is a PA28. That's what it says in the flight plan and data tag. We don't often know if it's a -140, -160, -180, or a -235. And the average Cherokee pilot doesn't fly that much different in one than the other, except perhaps in climb. The average Cherokee pilot is not a retired Military/Airline pilot either. So the simple fact is, if the controller doesn't know you, he/she IS probably going to treat you like a "typical" 200 hr, I flew once last month, Private Pilot.
It's true that there have been times when I knew the pilot, I've done/tried things I would have never considered otherwise. I used to know a fellow with a Luscombe 8A who could make it sit up and bark, and he got all kinds of "special" treatment, because I could absolutely count on him. On the other hand, he would also happily loiter at 20 kts GS on a 1 mile final while I launched one departure after another in front of him. He flew for fun and was seldom in a hurry.
It sounds as if you're unhappy flying out of an airport that's extremely busy this time of year, it's approach control is handled by another facility miles away, you're being worked by a controller who might work finals at FLL 4-5 hours a week, but is more comfortable sequencing 757's to MIA, and who doesn't know you from a shiny new Private Pilot. That's quite possibly all true. It's a different world from 30-40 years ago when controlled airspace was smaller, the rules and procedures more flexible, and when the approach control was one or two scopes just below the tower cab. We often knew the pilots by voice and they knew us too. I remember those days too, but there's no going back now.
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The guy assumed I knew every intersection in CA!
*************
V4F...
...when the approach control was one or two scopes just below the tower cab...I remember those days too, but there's no going back now.
Dave
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One doesn't want to sound too contraversial but a well used saying in this centre is;
"Separated by a common language"!!
Usually used when talking about our transatlantic cousins! (personally I blame the time difference!)
"Separated by a common language"!!
Usually used when talking about our transatlantic cousins! (personally I blame the time difference!)
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I really must take exception to the "there is no going back" comment. To the best of my recollection, the air traffic control system is publicly funded here in the US. As such, I expect equal treatment whether I'm flying a 150 or a 747 (no such luck).
Perhaps the airlines need to stop trying to put 300 airplanes on the same piece of concrete within 20 minutes of each other. Naturally, being driven by market pressures, they're not going to do so until someone makes it clear to them that they're going to be wasting an awful lot of fuel when they try it. ATC's customer is the pilot. Not the airline pilot, not the corporate pilot, nor Ritchie Rich and his Pilatus...all of us.
I fail to see what is difficult about recognizing that in the public sector the job description is to serve the public.
I haven't had the dubious honor of trying to swap paint with the "big boys" lately, but back when I first received my "license to sleep in the right seat", I remember doing a lot of ILSes to a very busy Class C. Somehow, the controllers always worked to keep us in the flow, and it usually came out fine. However, I don't lose a lot of sleep over the couple of DC-8s or 747s loaded with consumer electronics that may have had to swing out a couple of miles to let us firewall the old 172RG down to the threshold.
If the airlines need airports all their own, maybe they should build some.
Having said that, I hope no one here will take it as a personal slam. I've got all kinds of respect for the "big boy" pilots...maybe one day I'll be one. And I've been favorably impressed with the expertise, competence, and good nature of 95% of the ATC I've encountered. I suppose what I have in my sights with this little rant is the idea that somehow a controller's responsability extends a bit further for a Sky God with 400 Busy Important People in the back than it does for a Good Ole Boy Bug Smasher. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's no one's call to make.
Best Regards,
TRF
Perhaps the airlines need to stop trying to put 300 airplanes on the same piece of concrete within 20 minutes of each other. Naturally, being driven by market pressures, they're not going to do so until someone makes it clear to them that they're going to be wasting an awful lot of fuel when they try it. ATC's customer is the pilot. Not the airline pilot, not the corporate pilot, nor Ritchie Rich and his Pilatus...all of us.
I fail to see what is difficult about recognizing that in the public sector the job description is to serve the public.
I haven't had the dubious honor of trying to swap paint with the "big boys" lately, but back when I first received my "license to sleep in the right seat", I remember doing a lot of ILSes to a very busy Class C. Somehow, the controllers always worked to keep us in the flow, and it usually came out fine. However, I don't lose a lot of sleep over the couple of DC-8s or 747s loaded with consumer electronics that may have had to swing out a couple of miles to let us firewall the old 172RG down to the threshold.
If the airlines need airports all their own, maybe they should build some.
Having said that, I hope no one here will take it as a personal slam. I've got all kinds of respect for the "big boy" pilots...maybe one day I'll be one. And I've been favorably impressed with the expertise, competence, and good nature of 95% of the ATC I've encountered. I suppose what I have in my sights with this little rant is the idea that somehow a controller's responsability extends a bit further for a Sky God with 400 Busy Important People in the back than it does for a Good Ole Boy Bug Smasher. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's no one's call to make.
Best Regards,
TRF
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I believe you've just described Duluth (KDLH). If you've got a heavy coat, gallons of DEET, and a longing for radio stations that still play the songs you loved when you were 15, it might be the place for you... If you want to go back, consider going north!
And if they'd take me as a retired re-tread in a couple years, I might go! 
Actually, the high here was only 38 yesterday, and I darn near froze! As I get older, my preferred temperature gets higher and higher. This Southern boy is about 20 years too old for Duluth!
Today's supposed to be around 45, I'm playing golf in a couple hours, I've got 3 layers on, and my winter golf gloves ready. Brrrrrr!!
I really must take exception to the "there is no going back" comment. To the best of my recollection, the air traffic control system is publicly funded here in the US. As such, I expect equal treatment whether I'm flying a 150 or a 747 (no such luck).
You might consider that that 747 has about 350 passengers who each paid a ticket tax to fund the ATC system that exceeds the fuel taxes for an hour in a C-150 by a fair amount. I would also submit that the average GA piston single gets service FAR out of proportion to the taxes paid to fund that service. ATC's customer is NOT just the pilot, but the pilots, passengers, and even the freight shippers who pay to use the system.
I can agree with a few of your sentiments, and we WILL try our best to accomodate everyone. But there are limits to what we can do, depending on runway layout and traffic mix. And I'm sure you're aware that the rule book says:
Ensure that neither VFR nor IFR practice approaches disrupt the flow of other arriving and departing IFR or VFR aircraft. Authorize, withdraw authorization, or refuse to authorize practice approaches as traffic conditions require.
I assure you that quite a few of those "Sky Gods" know the rule, and quote it to our supervisors on the phone from time to time...
Last edited by vector4fun; 7th Jan 2004 at 20:45.
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Hi Jim;
It pains me to say it <G>, but in the enroute environment, we quite often don't know what the next sector is going to do with you, especially if we are busy with our own problems. We don't take the time to look at the next person who may or may not be in the same area, or for that matter, the same center. We don't know what sort of streams he / she is trying to sequence or if someone just launched two off of an airport in their airspace that are going to LAX and now they have to sequence them with you. The system just isn't to the point that we can do that, especially when you are real busy... TMU can only do so much even with the tools at hand, but being that this is a dynamic system and not static, stuff changes constantly and you have to adjust with that.
As to the bar comment, well most controllers I have met ( here and in other countries ) we do some of our best problem solving there <G>. I have some of the most fun when I am putting on one of our "Raincheck" classes with a room full of pilots all getting to see what really goes on at our level and try to answer the mass of questions that come up. In fact I was getting ready to start up the facility classes again when we went back to Orange due to those inconsiderate terrorists... Hard to do things when the they keep changing the stuff they are telling people <sigh>. Oh well, hopefully we will go back to yellow again in the next couple of months and I can get our classes going...
Do we have some airlines or companies that are noted for great performance and those who are known for not being able to get along? Sure, just like anything else in life. <shrug> We deal with it and get on with life. There is an airline that if you know that you have to make something work, you will pick them because they FLY the airplane <G> and if they say unable, you know that it is physically impossible for the aircraft to perform that way...
As to phraseology. The US pilots are indeed considered some of the worst in the rest of the world. Part of the big problem probably stems from how we do things here. We all speak a form of english <G> and we can sometimes chit chat to get a point across. In other smaller countries they don't have that luxury and stick very nicely for the most part to perscribed phraseology. That makes things run much smoother for both controllers and pilots. We are MUCH more lax here in this country when it comes to pilots sticking with phraseology and it appears to be getting WORSE! I see it as both a controller and as an Aviation Safety Counselor. There are days that we would just be happy as controllers to get pilots to use something as basic as a call sign. You say you hear controllers that sound like they hate pilots? I LOVE pilots but you will hear frustration in my voice after an hour of having to repeatedly get readbacks from PROFESSIONAL pilots due to lack of call sign being used, or just plain sloppy radio work. Then they get pissed at me because I didn't know to assume that it was them talking to me. It does get old and we are doing it for a reason... Ya have to get the info right or bad things can happen, even with something as simple as a frequency change. If the wrong person takes it, then you aren't where you need to be when someone trys to turn you or climb you for traffic.. Enough of that rant <G>.
I hope that this is giving you some insight as to what we do. I hope that at sometime you can go to a formal raincheck program in a facility. Ours is a great program which is very small ( No more than 15 people to a class ) but it gives you both classroom, hands on and a LOT of face to face time with controllers to see what goes on and ask a lot of questions... It's how we all learn more about what we both do. I personally think that ALL pilots going through Capt. upgrade training spend at least one day going through this class... It would debunk a LOT of myths that they many have about both ATC and procedures.
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman
PS. While doing shameless plugs <G>, Communicating for Safety is taking place in Dallas this year, April 20th and 21st. More info on the NATCA BBS...
TRF4EVER;
I see that vector 4 fun already responded... But as he stated quite well, there are a LOT of folks who are paying for the right to be in the air. We try our very best to serve everyone in the fairest way that we can. Shoot, we are probably the best friend that AOPA and EAA have in the govt. We indeed try to ensure open access to everyone and we do our best to ensure that the airlines don't trample the rights of the little guy. Trust me, from the meetings I go to, the airlines would like to see you guys go away when it comes to sharing any airtime. Now, when I say that I don't mean the pilots per se, but but airlines themselves and then some of the associations.
As to the FAA remembering who the customers are. In the larger sense the FAA at the HIGH levels hears from it's constituents all the time through associations like AOPA, ALPA, ATA and a lot of other alphabet groups. They all try to exert pull when ever they can. However at the end of the day, the most pull is by those who do the appropriations or the congress critters. When they say I have heard from XXXX and they are concerned about this or that, then the FAA REALLY listens. I don't know if you have ever taken a look at who does lobbying in Washington DC, but if you haven't, take note of the Lobby that the airlines have with ATA and then the ones that they do themselves. This doesn't count that done by NBAA and private companies. Compared to you and I, we are barely a bump on the road of corporate contributions.
Good luck with getting your spot in line if going to a busy airport. But know that we are going to try to do our best to keep you in the mix and to have the most freedom in flght anywhere in the world...
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Regioin
Safety and Technology Chairman
PS.... Vector 4 Fun, where do you vector at? I am at ZFW
It pains me to say it <G>, but in the enroute environment, we quite often don't know what the next sector is going to do with you, especially if we are busy with our own problems. We don't take the time to look at the next person who may or may not be in the same area, or for that matter, the same center. We don't know what sort of streams he / she is trying to sequence or if someone just launched two off of an airport in their airspace that are going to LAX and now they have to sequence them with you. The system just isn't to the point that we can do that, especially when you are real busy... TMU can only do so much even with the tools at hand, but being that this is a dynamic system and not static, stuff changes constantly and you have to adjust with that.
As to the bar comment, well most controllers I have met ( here and in other countries ) we do some of our best problem solving there <G>. I have some of the most fun when I am putting on one of our "Raincheck" classes with a room full of pilots all getting to see what really goes on at our level and try to answer the mass of questions that come up. In fact I was getting ready to start up the facility classes again when we went back to Orange due to those inconsiderate terrorists... Hard to do things when the they keep changing the stuff they are telling people <sigh>. Oh well, hopefully we will go back to yellow again in the next couple of months and I can get our classes going...
Do we have some airlines or companies that are noted for great performance and those who are known for not being able to get along? Sure, just like anything else in life. <shrug> We deal with it and get on with life. There is an airline that if you know that you have to make something work, you will pick them because they FLY the airplane <G> and if they say unable, you know that it is physically impossible for the aircraft to perform that way...
As to phraseology. The US pilots are indeed considered some of the worst in the rest of the world. Part of the big problem probably stems from how we do things here. We all speak a form of english <G> and we can sometimes chit chat to get a point across. In other smaller countries they don't have that luxury and stick very nicely for the most part to perscribed phraseology. That makes things run much smoother for both controllers and pilots. We are MUCH more lax here in this country when it comes to pilots sticking with phraseology and it appears to be getting WORSE! I see it as both a controller and as an Aviation Safety Counselor. There are days that we would just be happy as controllers to get pilots to use something as basic as a call sign. You say you hear controllers that sound like they hate pilots? I LOVE pilots but you will hear frustration in my voice after an hour of having to repeatedly get readbacks from PROFESSIONAL pilots due to lack of call sign being used, or just plain sloppy radio work. Then they get pissed at me because I didn't know to assume that it was them talking to me. It does get old and we are doing it for a reason... Ya have to get the info right or bad things can happen, even with something as simple as a frequency change. If the wrong person takes it, then you aren't where you need to be when someone trys to turn you or climb you for traffic.. Enough of that rant <G>.
I hope that this is giving you some insight as to what we do. I hope that at sometime you can go to a formal raincheck program in a facility. Ours is a great program which is very small ( No more than 15 people to a class ) but it gives you both classroom, hands on and a LOT of face to face time with controllers to see what goes on and ask a lot of questions... It's how we all learn more about what we both do. I personally think that ALL pilots going through Capt. upgrade training spend at least one day going through this class... It would debunk a LOT of myths that they many have about both ATC and procedures.
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman
PS. While doing shameless plugs <G>, Communicating for Safety is taking place in Dallas this year, April 20th and 21st. More info on the NATCA BBS...
TRF4EVER;
I see that vector 4 fun already responded... But as he stated quite well, there are a LOT of folks who are paying for the right to be in the air. We try our very best to serve everyone in the fairest way that we can. Shoot, we are probably the best friend that AOPA and EAA have in the govt. We indeed try to ensure open access to everyone and we do our best to ensure that the airlines don't trample the rights of the little guy. Trust me, from the meetings I go to, the airlines would like to see you guys go away when it comes to sharing any airtime. Now, when I say that I don't mean the pilots per se, but but airlines themselves and then some of the associations.
As to the FAA remembering who the customers are. In the larger sense the FAA at the HIGH levels hears from it's constituents all the time through associations like AOPA, ALPA, ATA and a lot of other alphabet groups. They all try to exert pull when ever they can. However at the end of the day, the most pull is by those who do the appropriations or the congress critters. When they say I have heard from XXXX and they are concerned about this or that, then the FAA REALLY listens. I don't know if you have ever taken a look at who does lobbying in Washington DC, but if you haven't, take note of the Lobby that the airlines have with ATA and then the ones that they do themselves. This doesn't count that done by NBAA and private companies. Compared to you and I, we are barely a bump on the road of corporate contributions.
Good luck with getting your spot in line if going to a busy airport. But know that we are going to try to do our best to keep you in the mix and to have the most freedom in flght anywhere in the world...
regards
Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Regioin
Safety and Technology Chairman
PS.... Vector 4 Fun, where do you vector at? I am at ZFW
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Scott/Vector4Fun and others
thanks for the comments.
Scott-How long does your raincheck program go on. Its it a day or a few days a week apart?
WHat is the April 20-21 program and what does it entail.
I think it is rotten that we can not visit ATC facilites once people have established their credentials. I hope 9/11 isn't going to be the determinant forever. It's not like they turn a group of terrorist pilots alone with ONE controller who conducts the class and tries to work a little traffic in between <bfg>!They have backups,supervisors, and others to keep our bad boys in check!
Also on the various flying I do, I went to EYW today and talked to Navy EYW and the local guys a KEWY and they were great. I launched from an intersection of a 5000' runway and the ATR Eagle was in position from the end. So there were three airplanes on the runway at the same time. Two in position and one rolling out. I think DAYTIME that is still legal, right? I think because of the LAX USair/commuter nighttime intesection position and holds were eliminated, right?
I understand your thoughts about a PA 28. I fly about 100 hours per year in light airplanes and I rarely have troubles. It just seemed like this week was a little bizarre.
BTW, are cargo airplanes given the same priority as passenger airplanes? It appears that they are not,but again I have to use that bad word of first come first serve. Soooooo, if my 400F taxies as fast as a 400 Passenger, a Gulfstream, a Bandit, A Cherokee and everybody else does that mean somebody should make me be number LAST????
thanks for the comments.
Scott-How long does your raincheck program go on. Its it a day or a few days a week apart?
WHat is the April 20-21 program and what does it entail.
I think it is rotten that we can not visit ATC facilites once people have established their credentials. I hope 9/11 isn't going to be the determinant forever. It's not like they turn a group of terrorist pilots alone with ONE controller who conducts the class and tries to work a little traffic in between <bfg>!They have backups,supervisors, and others to keep our bad boys in check!
Also on the various flying I do, I went to EYW today and talked to Navy EYW and the local guys a KEWY and they were great. I launched from an intersection of a 5000' runway and the ATR Eagle was in position from the end. So there were three airplanes on the runway at the same time. Two in position and one rolling out. I think DAYTIME that is still legal, right? I think because of the LAX USair/commuter nighttime intesection position and holds were eliminated, right?
I understand your thoughts about a PA 28. I fly about 100 hours per year in light airplanes and I rarely have troubles. It just seemed like this week was a little bizarre.
BTW, are cargo airplanes given the same priority as passenger airplanes? It appears that they are not,but again I have to use that bad word of first come first serve. Soooooo, if my 400F taxies as fast as a 400 Passenger, a Gulfstream, a Bandit, A Cherokee and everybody else does that mean somebody should make me be number LAST????
