American controllers and airports
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Silicon Hills
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BTW, are cargo airplanes given the same priority as passenger airplanes? It appears that they are not,but again I have to use that bad word of first come first serve. Soooooo, if my 400F taxies as fast as a 400 Passenger, a Gulfstream, a Bandit, A Cherokee and everybody else does that mean somebody should make me be number LAST????
Hi Jim,
The best, and most accurate answer I can give is that when we get really busy, we give priority to getting the MOST airplanes on or off the runway in the shortest time. The only two operators who get regular priority treatment are AF1, and the Medivac Helos which operate frequently through our airspace. If getting the MOST airplanes in means stuffing a Cherokee into a 4 mile gap on final, we'll do that. But if we've got a string of 170+ kt aircraft lining up for both runways, and no gaps suitable to fit that 100 kt aircraft in, then them's the breaks. I'm sure you can understand it's much safer, more practical and efficient to have a Cherokee doing a 1 mile orbit 3 miles from the field, than it is to have a MD-80 doing 10 mile legs at 3000' over somebody's neighborhood miles away. At my airport, those kinds of "pushes" seldom last for more than 10-15 minutes before some gaps again develop., but there have, and will be days when we have to refuse practice approaches or T-n-G landings for part of the day. To the extent possible, we'll keep the Cargo and many of the airliners on one runway, and GA on the other, but GA all parks on the east end of the field, so Cherokees often still have to mesh with Gulfstreams, Falcons, and Citations. Not even the State Governor asks for, nor receives "special" treatment. He fits where he fits.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Jim;
Raincheck at my place is a one day class. It starts at 0800 and lasts until it is done <G>. That is determined by the folks in the class. When they run out of questions, the class lets out. It is normally over about 1530 or so. I had one class get out at 1400 but it was a college class that I found out later the professor had forced to attend. NO questions, no interest and I told the professor that he wasn't going to do that EVER again, or he would never get a class there again. I've also had classes go up to 1800 with folks finally being begged to email me with any other questions <G>... Everyone but that one class has always had a great time.
Communicating for Safety is a gathering of line controllers and pilots (more controllers than pilots now.) who get together to listen to issues from some of the leaders in aviation and then after a short presentation get to ask pointed questions of those aviation leaders ( Industry and FAA). It gets quite interesting from time to time. A long time ago there were quite a few more pilots than controllers at these meetings, but we (NATCA) started to get much better at getting controllers there. Now we are working very hard at getting more line pilots there. We want a lot more of their input.
To find out more, you can go to our website www.natca.org and click on the Communicating for Safety logo. That will take you to the Safety website and you can see the agenda and brochure. We hope to have our online registration up and running by next week sometime.
Oh as to credentials and such. When we are Orange, basicly it is only FAA employees and contractors who are already badged and have had a security clearance done on them are allowed in. There are always exceptions, but the tour stuff is something that they are not going to allow. Credentials are too easy to forge anyway...
regards
Scott
Raincheck at my place is a one day class. It starts at 0800 and lasts until it is done <G>. That is determined by the folks in the class. When they run out of questions, the class lets out. It is normally over about 1530 or so. I had one class get out at 1400 but it was a college class that I found out later the professor had forced to attend. NO questions, no interest and I told the professor that he wasn't going to do that EVER again, or he would never get a class there again. I've also had classes go up to 1800 with folks finally being begged to email me with any other questions <G>... Everyone but that one class has always had a great time.
Communicating for Safety is a gathering of line controllers and pilots (more controllers than pilots now.) who get together to listen to issues from some of the leaders in aviation and then after a short presentation get to ask pointed questions of those aviation leaders ( Industry and FAA). It gets quite interesting from time to time. A long time ago there were quite a few more pilots than controllers at these meetings, but we (NATCA) started to get much better at getting controllers there. Now we are working very hard at getting more line pilots there. We want a lot more of their input.
To find out more, you can go to our website www.natca.org and click on the Communicating for Safety logo. That will take you to the Safety website and you can see the agenda and brochure. We hope to have our online registration up and running by next week sometime.
Oh as to credentials and such. When we are Orange, basicly it is only FAA employees and contractors who are already badged and have had a security clearance done on them are allowed in. There are always exceptions, but the tour stuff is something that they are not going to allow. Credentials are too easy to forge anyway...
regards
Scott
NATCA should try to get access to sim training events. There is usually a spare seat in the back of the sim. Rather than chat about the FAA, stock prices, retirement funds and sports as was the norm when you guys could ride the actual, you can see what happens when things go pear shaped. Line observations are great, but tend to offer little return for the amount of time spent in the seat. Then again most of the obsevations were to either get out of work, or were to cities that had big games that weekend.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Silicon Hills
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NATCA should try to get access to sim training events.
On the other hand, I got to jumpseat with him for a three day trip in the Tristar, and learned a lot about the aircraft.
I DO still remember getting to play around in one of Delta's Link trainers at ATL back around 1964 or so when I was just a kid!
Does that count?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kandahar Afghanistan
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
West Coast,
Sitting jump seat during a sim is a great idea, it would help us learn how best to assist you during an emergency, and give us an opportunity to ask questions about normal ops parameters (max gear speed, how slow can you really go on final, etc.)
_______________________________________________
Jim,
The Communicating for Safety is normally a two day event (Scott correct me if I'm wrong), with about two hundred attendees. Participants include FAA representatives, NATCA President and Executive Vice President, representatives from ALPA as well as AOPA, and trade booths from various aviation related companies.
The goal is to improve safety through communication. This is a very worth while event and you would probably enjoy attending.
Mike R
NATCA FWA
Sitting jump seat during a sim is a great idea, it would help us learn how best to assist you during an emergency, and give us an opportunity to ask questions about normal ops parameters (max gear speed, how slow can you really go on final, etc.)
_______________________________________________
Jim,
The Communicating for Safety is normally a two day event (Scott correct me if I'm wrong), with about two hundred attendees. Participants include FAA representatives, NATCA President and Executive Vice President, representatives from ALPA as well as AOPA, and trade booths from various aviation related companies.
The goal is to improve safety through communication. This is a very worth while event and you would probably enjoy attending.
Mike R
NATCA FWA
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike;
We were up to 300 people last year and my goal is 400 people this year with the new folks made up of more pilots. I WANT MORE PILOTS there... Of course, I also want more line controllers there from all over the world <G>. It is the best way to get ideas and opinions flowing. Lots of good exchange.
Vectors for fun... We have been trading some training at SimuFlite. NATCA trains the sim instructors on how to be good controllers and how to not make stupid controller tricks, and they take some of our folks on sim rides to show them stuff. Haven't gotten as many folks in as I would like, but we are making a fair dent...
regards
Scott
We were up to 300 people last year and my goal is 400 people this year with the new folks made up of more pilots. I WANT MORE PILOTS there... Of course, I also want more line controllers there from all over the world <G>. It is the best way to get ideas and opinions flowing. Lots of good exchange.
Vectors for fun... We have been trading some training at SimuFlite. NATCA trains the sim instructors on how to be good controllers and how to not make stupid controller tricks, and they take some of our folks on sim rides to show them stuff. Haven't gotten as many folks in as I would like, but we are making a fair dent...
regards
Scott
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 407
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to interrupt here, but i'll have to get back on the subject, well kinda 
.
Do ATCO's make assumptions about a pilots flying ability, depending on how well he sounds over the Radio?
**edit: sorry, sounds kinda vague. What i mean was, do ATCO's try out more things with professional 'sounding' pilots (regardless if a Cessna 152 or a Jet), or do they not bother taking the risk, and then finding out he is not capable of doing it?
End edit**
Btw, sorry to sidetrack here, but since Scott's a regular in this thread, i might as well pose a question which is kinda related to the 'No-practice VFR/IFR approaches'. I don't know if you remember Scott, but about 1-2 years ago i asked you something about Tulsa's/Riverside's airspace - and if i remember correctly, i think you said you were in charge, or 'overseeing' that part of the system. Anyway, you might know whats going on. Last few days, Tulsa's primary radar was/is out of service. And it was being said that ATCO's would not accept any requests regarding VFR/IFR practice approaches within Tulsa Airspace. How so? Since Secondary Radar was still working and you would need a transponder code anyway to do those operations, what has changed because of the primary radar not working?
Thanks for any feedback!
.Do ATCO's make assumptions about a pilots flying ability, depending on how well he sounds over the Radio?
**edit: sorry, sounds kinda vague. What i mean was, do ATCO's try out more things with professional 'sounding' pilots (regardless if a Cessna 152 or a Jet), or do they not bother taking the risk, and then finding out he is not capable of doing it?
End edit**
Btw, sorry to sidetrack here, but since Scott's a regular in this thread, i might as well pose a question which is kinda related to the 'No-practice VFR/IFR approaches'. I don't know if you remember Scott, but about 1-2 years ago i asked you something about Tulsa's/Riverside's airspace - and if i remember correctly, i think you said you were in charge, or 'overseeing' that part of the system. Anyway, you might know whats going on. Last few days, Tulsa's primary radar was/is out of service. And it was being said that ATCO's would not accept any requests regarding VFR/IFR practice approaches within Tulsa Airspace. How so? Since Secondary Radar was still working and you would need a transponder code anyway to do those operations, what has changed because of the primary radar not working?
Thanks for any feedback!
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Silicon Hills
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do ATCO's make assumptions about a pilots flying ability, depending on how well he sounds over the Radio?
do ATCO's try out more things with professional 'sounding' pilots (regardless if a Cessna 152 or a Jet), or do they not bother taking the risk, and then finding out he is not capable of doing it?
Perhaps a better way of saying it is, when we hear someone on the radio that doesn't sound professional, we're not nearly as likely to try something requiring more than minimum skill from the pilot.
Last few days, Tulsa's primary radar was/is out of service. And it was being said that ATCO's would not accept any requests regarding VFR/IFR practice approaches within Tulsa Airspace. How so? Since Secondary Radar was still working and you would need a transponder code anyway to do those operations, what has changed because of the primary radar not working?
What that most likely means is that Tulsa Approach is/was on CENRAP. CENRAP is a backup Radar system which lets Tulsa App pull Radar data from another source, usually a Long-Range Center site. They're doing this because their own Radar system is down for some reason.
Now, there's two forms of CENRAP, Full or CENRAP Plus. Under CENRAP Plus, Tulsa would have lost their Secondary (beacon) Radar for some reason, but the antenna is still turning, and they are still getting Primary Radar returns. Of course, that's just the "Blip", without the transponder code and Mode-C altitude. So they're using a nearby Center Long-Range radar site to provide the Secondary Radar data. (This gets a bit confusing) So they've got a local ASR antenna providing Primary data via a direct link to their ARTS system via a cable or Microwave, and a distant ARSR antenna providing Secondary data, at a much slower rotation (update) speed via an indirect link that takes the data from the ARSR site, to the Center, and then back to Tulsa App. And I think, (but am not sure) that's done via modems. In any event, it's slow. So what you see on the radar display is a Primary target that "hops" a small fraction of an inch every six seconds or so, and a Secondary or Beacon target associated with it that lags behind by as much as a couple miles, and only lurches along about once every 20 seconds. We also have to be aware that the Mode-C altitude displayed is some 20 seconds or so "old". Finally, since the Long-range site providing the Secondary data may, in fact, be located many miles away, perhaps 30 or so, then it's not optimally located to see aircraft at low altitudes close to the airport. Result, no Beacon target at all below 2000-2500' perhaps. Now, what does all this mean to the Controller and Pilot? It means the controller can still use normal lateral separation between primary targets, (IF they're adequate), but must use extra separation between Secondary targets and CANNOT use Mode-C data for separation. ("Cessna 345, say altitude leaving.")
If Tulsa was in Full CENRAP, then that means they had no Primary radar capability at all from their own ASR antenna, and a VERY limited amount of Primary data (if any) from the distant ARSR antenna. Now Tulsa App is using the same Radar system that a Center Controller uses, with it's inherently slow update, and without the mosaic capability. (That's the ability to combine Radar data from several sites on one display). PLUS, this data is very OLD data. PLUS, they may not be able to see a thing below, say, the Procedure Turn Altitude. Result? No practice approaches, five miles or more between IFR aircraft, and the Mode-C data is basically just "Gee-Whiz" information, and useless for separation.
Hope that answers your question, and I haven't goofed my answer because it's past my bedtime...
Last edited by vector4fun; 10th Jan 2004 at 12:39.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Matt;
What my alter ego said In the advent of TUL, the ARTCC site closest to it would be in OKC. So you can see that would be a little ways off.
The info is indeed sent via a type of modem and then merged into the approach control systems. Eroute radar is about half the speed of the terminal systems and rotates about every 10 to 12 seconds or so depending on the type radar being used. ( slow indeed <G>, it's what you get used to. )
As to the question about the pilots. You bet that we make some assumptions by voice and how well they use the radio. If they sound shakey we don't try anything other than the basics and don't try to do anything out of the ordinary to make them number one. We will just fit them in as best we can and watch them like a hawk
regards
Scott
What my alter ego said
In the advent of TUL, the ARTCC site closest to it would be in OKC. So you can see that would be a little ways off. The info is indeed sent via a type of modem and then merged into the approach control systems. Eroute radar is about half the speed of the terminal systems and rotates about every 10 to 12 seconds or so depending on the type radar being used. ( slow indeed <G>, it's what you get used to. )
As to the question about the pilots. You bet that we make some assumptions by voice and how well they use the radio. If they sound shakey we don't try anything other than the basics and don't try to do anything out of the ordinary to make them number one. We will just fit them in as best we can and watch them like a hawk
regards
Scott
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kandahar Afghanistan
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Matt,
Using FWA for example, when we go CENRAP, the nearest long range radar site that we can get a feed from is about 45 miles nw in LaGrange Indiana. The trouble is that using CENRAP we have a hard time seeing traffic below 5000, in addition we can not use altitude for seperation during climbs and descents unless pilots are asked to report out of or at specific altitudes.
As you can see working pratice approaches (VFR or IFR) would be extremely difficult, and sequencing VFR's to the airport is even more difficult so we normally do not provide VFR services unless an aircraft is overflying and at an altitude that we can see.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Using FWA for example, when we go CENRAP, the nearest long range radar site that we can get a feed from is about 45 miles nw in LaGrange Indiana. The trouble is that using CENRAP we have a hard time seeing traffic below 5000, in addition we can not use altitude for seperation during climbs and descents unless pilots are asked to report out of or at specific altitudes.
As you can see working pratice approaches (VFR or IFR) would be extremely difficult, and sequencing VFR's to the airport is even more difficult so we normally do not provide VFR services unless an aircraft is overflying and at an altitude that we can see.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Karup, Denmark
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back to the original post, Jim Morehead:
When you actually "helped" the controller and made the fast turn off. Were you forgotten? A supervisor or another controller could have helped here. But I often find controllers very stubborn to accept "CRM" techniques.
Crossing a runway must not become "rocket science".
When approaching in a normally slow aircraft I would "volunteer":
" --- and I can give you 120 till short final"
Most controllers will take up the challenge!
I'm a little worried about the statements that aircraft with the most passengers get priority.
And hate to admit it: There are great differences in controller ability.
Best regards
When you actually "helped" the controller and made the fast turn off. Were you forgotten? A supervisor or another controller could have helped here. But I often find controllers very stubborn to accept "CRM" techniques.
Crossing a runway must not become "rocket science".
When approaching in a normally slow aircraft I would "volunteer":
" --- and I can give you 120 till short final"
Most controllers will take up the challenge!
I'm a little worried about the statements that aircraft with the most passengers get priority.
And hate to admit it: There are great differences in controller ability.
Best regards
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pompano Beach,FL- USA
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Normally left blank...thanks for the message. I am sure that controllers vary with ability as do pilots.
In the case of how and why I started the thread, it was at Ft. Lauderdale Exec which is a non airline-non military airport and has become an extremely busy GA airport. I soled there 38 years ago. Tehn I used to be able to take off runway 8 and land on 13. Do a touch and go and do a right downwind for RW 8. Take off and make a left turn (at 300 feet) to land on 17...etc.etc. Amazing how many landings one could get in an hour!
But EXEC is busy now.
Next time I'll volunteer <bg>...
At Exec, I did get essentially ignored, I feel. I mean to wait :10 to cross a runway is not right nor fair. Even if they had to hold the guy in position for take off should not have been too much to ask especially after I made the turn to help the controller with a high speed right turn versus a hard ,slow left turn. Even as the departure guy went by me, they could have crossed me because they had to wait for the departing guy to leave before they could launch another.
And I did say that WH was holding short of RW8 at Charlie or whatever the intersection was. He said Roger. After 10 more arrivals and departures, I thought my turn was ready to come up. I asked the controller, "are you sure you have right WH"? He said absolutely. So that was the end of the story.
Back to the big airplane story. For those of you that know LAX, it is a busy place and they have the noise problem (what's new???). They do try to launch west and after 11:00pm or midnight they try to land east and launch west. It usually involves a tailwind on landing during the midnight hours.
But we left the freight ramp in the far SE corner next to 25L. The taxi time was less than 1 minute. 25R had about 10 airplanes leave before us and I know many called for taxi AFTER we called for taxi and even after we were sitting there ready on 25L. I this case, we were a light 747-400F nonstop to SFO at 0100. We had asked ground to confirm we would get and we wanted 25L because it was closest to our ramp. It also would be easier for us.
And a point here to be made that with the electric glass cockpits that it takes some programming to be done,so with the 30 second taxi time we didn't want to change all of the takeoff data once we left the ramp. In fact at my insistance, I asked the F/O to call LAX ground and make sure that we could have 25L. The controller said YES,Plan on it. :20 later we called and the GC sends us to 25R to hold short of 25L. We said we wanted 25L. Obviously nobody was talking to each other or there had been a shift change. Either way, we were given 25L as we planned. We then switched to tower and said Ready for takeoff. There were no arrivals. There were about 2 people waiting on 25R.
We felt like we were being ignored and airplanes continued to call taxi and we were number last. Now I know 25L and 25R are close runways,but is there some reason why they wouldn't launch between both runways???We thought it might be some wake turbulence issue or something. The wind was about 0803 or light and variable. I finally said that if it was a wake turbulence issue that we didn't need any delay. BTW, is a 747-400 subject to wake turbulence from any other type of airplane? Also can a transport category pilot waive the turbulence? It rarely comes up because the controllers are trying to launch airplanes as rapidly (also read safely and legally) as they can and it is the pilot that requests MORE than the controller gives.
But anyway, we sat for about :15 for no apparent reason and no explanation. We couldn't get a sequence. It just struck us that if we had just taken 25R, the lady would have been happier for some reason.
Anyway,if you have some thoughts or ideas,let me know. I get back to LAX from taipei on the 13th, so we will see how it goes.
JIM
P.S.- will I get excessive vectors, speed control, or a holding pattern if any of the aforementioned controllers are working that shift????
In the case of how and why I started the thread, it was at Ft. Lauderdale Exec which is a non airline-non military airport and has become an extremely busy GA airport. I soled there 38 years ago. Tehn I used to be able to take off runway 8 and land on 13. Do a touch and go and do a right downwind for RW 8. Take off and make a left turn (at 300 feet) to land on 17...etc.etc. Amazing how many landings one could get in an hour!
But EXEC is busy now.
Next time I'll volunteer <bg>...
At Exec, I did get essentially ignored, I feel. I mean to wait :10 to cross a runway is not right nor fair. Even if they had to hold the guy in position for take off should not have been too much to ask especially after I made the turn to help the controller with a high speed right turn versus a hard ,slow left turn. Even as the departure guy went by me, they could have crossed me because they had to wait for the departing guy to leave before they could launch another.
And I did say that WH was holding short of RW8 at Charlie or whatever the intersection was. He said Roger. After 10 more arrivals and departures, I thought my turn was ready to come up. I asked the controller, "are you sure you have right WH"? He said absolutely. So that was the end of the story.
Back to the big airplane story. For those of you that know LAX, it is a busy place and they have the noise problem (what's new???). They do try to launch west and after 11:00pm or midnight they try to land east and launch west. It usually involves a tailwind on landing during the midnight hours.
But we left the freight ramp in the far SE corner next to 25L. The taxi time was less than 1 minute. 25R had about 10 airplanes leave before us and I know many called for taxi AFTER we called for taxi and even after we were sitting there ready on 25L. I this case, we were a light 747-400F nonstop to SFO at 0100. We had asked ground to confirm we would get and we wanted 25L because it was closest to our ramp. It also would be easier for us.
And a point here to be made that with the electric glass cockpits that it takes some programming to be done,so with the 30 second taxi time we didn't want to change all of the takeoff data once we left the ramp. In fact at my insistance, I asked the F/O to call LAX ground and make sure that we could have 25L. The controller said YES,Plan on it. :20 later we called and the GC sends us to 25R to hold short of 25L. We said we wanted 25L. Obviously nobody was talking to each other or there had been a shift change. Either way, we were given 25L as we planned. We then switched to tower and said Ready for takeoff. There were no arrivals. There were about 2 people waiting on 25R.
We felt like we were being ignored and airplanes continued to call taxi and we were number last. Now I know 25L and 25R are close runways,but is there some reason why they wouldn't launch between both runways???We thought it might be some wake turbulence issue or something. The wind was about 0803 or light and variable. I finally said that if it was a wake turbulence issue that we didn't need any delay. BTW, is a 747-400 subject to wake turbulence from any other type of airplane? Also can a transport category pilot waive the turbulence? It rarely comes up because the controllers are trying to launch airplanes as rapidly (also read safely and legally) as they can and it is the pilot that requests MORE than the controller gives.
But anyway, we sat for about :15 for no apparent reason and no explanation. We couldn't get a sequence. It just struck us that if we had just taken 25R, the lady would have been happier for some reason.
Anyway,if you have some thoughts or ideas,let me know. I get back to LAX from taipei on the 13th, so we will see how it goes.
JIM
P.S.- will I get excessive vectors, speed control, or a holding pattern if any of the aforementioned controllers are working that shift????
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kandahar Afghanistan
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jim,
Heavy wake turbelance is not wavierable. Tthe 7110.653-9-6 f says: Separate IFR/VFR aircraft taking off behind a heavy jet/B757 departure by 2 minutes. Paragraph h states: Air Traffic controllers SHALL NOT approve request to deviate from the required wake turbelence if the preceding aircraft is a heavy jet/B757.
Now for the 25L and 25R issue. Since FAM's have ceased to exist I see more and more situations like this occuring as well as controllers changing arrival runways with short notice, because they don't know what you the pilot have to do in order to run the numbers for the new runway.
You called in advanced requesting 25L, when you called for taxi and the controller gave you 25R, all you should have to say is, "we coordinated earlier with Ground that we require 25L". Odds are the controller forgot, or forgot to brief the relieving controller. When I have a pilot request for a specific runway, that I as ground approve or said to expect, I write that runway on the flight progress strip so that I don't forget. If the requested runway goes against the grain then I will warn the pilot to expect a delay and if possible how long will it be.
Jim, If you jump over to the NATCAnet Public BBS http://www.natca.net , Click on the About NATCA link, then click on the Public BBS you can post specific questions and comments like this that odds are will be answered by the controllers that work at that airport (or I will forward your message to the NATCA Facility Rep for a response).
Sometimes a specific parellel is assigned based upon what direction your turn after departure will be so that we can reduce or eliminate the possiblility of you crossing the departure corridor for the other runway, that may have been the case here, but I'm not familiar with SFO so I don't know.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Heavy wake turbelance is not wavierable. Tthe 7110.653-9-6 f says: Separate IFR/VFR aircraft taking off behind a heavy jet/B757 departure by 2 minutes. Paragraph h states: Air Traffic controllers SHALL NOT approve request to deviate from the required wake turbelence if the preceding aircraft is a heavy jet/B757.
Now for the 25L and 25R issue. Since FAM's have ceased to exist I see more and more situations like this occuring as well as controllers changing arrival runways with short notice, because they don't know what you the pilot have to do in order to run the numbers for the new runway.
You called in advanced requesting 25L, when you called for taxi and the controller gave you 25R, all you should have to say is, "we coordinated earlier with Ground that we require 25L". Odds are the controller forgot, or forgot to brief the relieving controller. When I have a pilot request for a specific runway, that I as ground approve or said to expect, I write that runway on the flight progress strip so that I don't forget. If the requested runway goes against the grain then I will warn the pilot to expect a delay and if possible how long will it be.
Jim, If you jump over to the NATCAnet Public BBS http://www.natca.net , Click on the About NATCA link, then click on the Public BBS you can post specific questions and comments like this that odds are will be answered by the controllers that work at that airport (or I will forward your message to the NATCA Facility Rep for a response).
Sometimes a specific parellel is assigned based upon what direction your turn after departure will be so that we can reduce or eliminate the possiblility of you crossing the departure corridor for the other runway, that may have been the case here, but I'm not familiar with SFO so I don't know.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Fort Worth ARTCC ZFW
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jim;
Mike already told you pretty much what I was going to tell you. The other issue that you may not be aware of, but when the tower goes to midnight ops, they have a LOT of combined positions that are being worked by probably two people in the tower. They have a few radios that they are listening too as well as making the landline coordination that would normally be done by another person. It can sound like you are being ignored at times but we are trying to give clearances, get releases from approach as well as talking to folks on other freqs. Not to mention the FM freqs for ground vehicles at some airports.
regards
Scott
Mike already told you pretty much what I was going to tell you. The other issue that you may not be aware of, but when the tower goes to midnight ops, they have a LOT of combined positions that are being worked by probably two people in the tower. They have a few radios that they are listening too as well as making the landline coordination that would normally be done by another person. It can sound like you are being ignored at times but we are trying to give clearances, get releases from approach as well as talking to folks on other freqs. Not to mention the FM freqs for ground vehicles at some airports.
regards
Scott
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pompano Beach,FL- USA
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scott and Mike...thanks for the info. Coming into LAX tonight everything was ENTIRELY NORMAL! Actually it was interesting landing on 24R was that the controller never issued speed control nor gave an idea of how long the VFR final would be. More often than not, there are suggestions, statements, and/or cues to figure it out. Tonight there wasn't. It was a good operation tonight in LAX.
Another interesting thing happened about 3 and 6 hours (of 11) into the flight. we got severe turbulence in a 747-400 which you rarely experience. We were using CPDLC and EVA couldn't hold altitude. We were 1,000 below him in RSVM airspace and the controller directed us to descend another thousand feet to 330 just to protect the altitude. Severe turbulence is not fun. it was caused by fronts,big temp changes, and wind shifts. Objects are flying around the cockpit and the airspeed is jumping around causing everything from stall warnings to overspeed. I had more turbulence last night of the severe variety than in the last 20 years.
I'll check out the other website.
Now they ain't gonna beat up on me and make me number last, are they????
Another interesting thing happened about 3 and 6 hours (of 11) into the flight. we got severe turbulence in a 747-400 which you rarely experience. We were using CPDLC and EVA couldn't hold altitude. We were 1,000 below him in RSVM airspace and the controller directed us to descend another thousand feet to 330 just to protect the altitude. Severe turbulence is not fun. it was caused by fronts,big temp changes, and wind shifts. Objects are flying around the cockpit and the airspeed is jumping around causing everything from stall warnings to overspeed. I had more turbulence last night of the severe variety than in the last 20 years.
I'll check out the other website.
Now they ain't gonna beat up on me and make me number last, are they????
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: California USA
Posts: 719
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jim,
1. You will not be beat up.
2. You are now number last.
Mike,
I'm curious... how is the fact that you're not familiar with SFO a problem when discussing the 25s at LAX?
Anyway, I know for a fact that Mike F answers his email, so that's not a bad idea...
Dave
1. You will not be beat up.
2. You are now number last.
Mike,
I'm curious... how is the fact that you're not familiar with SFO a problem when discussing the 25s at LAX?
Anyway, I know for a fact that Mike F answers his email, so that's not a bad idea...Dave
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Kandahar Afghanistan
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AV8boy,
I have never flown into or out of SFO, so I can't admit to any knowledge of the airport layout or local ATC procedures used there. I was in LAX twice, once in 1976 on my way overseas (compliments of the USMC) and again in 1977 on my way home after getting out of the USMC.
Mike
NATCA FWA
I have never flown into or out of SFO, so I can't admit to any knowledge of the airport layout or local ATC procedures used there. I was in LAX twice, once in 1976 on my way overseas (compliments of the USMC) and again in 1977 on my way home after getting out of the USMC.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Pompano Beach,FL- USA
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good questions. SFO is MUCH different than LAX for a number of resons and I have flown into both extensively and my current Company China Airlines flies both PAX and FRT to both.
SFO has generally bad winter weather (chamber of Commerce need not take not and I am not running for office in Northern California so Arnold is safe). From what I see, SFO hates using any different RW configuration other than departing on the ONEs and arriving on the 28s. They have a CROSS runway, so this is easier than LAX in many ways provided they don't meet at the intersection <bg> and that the pilots don't do anything other than the controller expects like turning onto an active runway or landing short when the controller expects you to roll through the intersection. SFO has parallels and this IS a problem and it it still an open issue actually as SFO sometimes tells you NOT to overtake the guy ahead when using 28L and 28R visual parrallels. Some days it is an issue and some days not. Depending on your landing speed, it is not often possible to comply and you don't know it until after the game is played out because some pilots fly slow (er) and others are fast (er).
LAX has a double set of parallels and the north and south complexes each have close parallels. In the case of LAX, they can't be "EVEN" parallels on the North or South complex,but the North can handle one and the South one at the same time at least when visual. I hope you understand what I mean.
In LAX's case, the runway for landing is easily predictable . If you come from the North Pacific, RNO,PDX,SEA,SFO, Canada, you'll land 24R in a west operation. If from SAN,the South Pacific, and generally the east, you get 25L. Freight usually gets 25L. But LAX is interesting because they try to accomodate you by the terminal which you will be going. United generally arrives on the 25 complex and departs the same unless traffic is heavy on departure and then the ground controller gets a workout.
LAX is usually more visuals.
SFO has ceiling requirements that often are not high enough for parallel and even staggered visuals.
SFO also has an interesting drill that goes on during the midnight shift and pilots are EXPECTED to take off 10L over the bay if POSSIBLE and land to the West on 28 if possible. This means that they can't work many airplanes because they have to be careful on not releasing one the opposite direction until the other one is assured.
LAX takes off west most of the time and during the midnight lands east when possible. I have arrived from Hawaii at 0500 many times and you get either 6 or 7 landings unless the tailwind (usually there) exceeds 10 kts.
BTW, some carriers and airplanes have a 10 kt limit and others have a 15 kt limit.
So anyway, they are both unique...
SFO has generally bad winter weather (chamber of Commerce need not take not and I am not running for office in Northern California so Arnold is safe). From what I see, SFO hates using any different RW configuration other than departing on the ONEs and arriving on the 28s. They have a CROSS runway, so this is easier than LAX in many ways provided they don't meet at the intersection <bg> and that the pilots don't do anything other than the controller expects like turning onto an active runway or landing short when the controller expects you to roll through the intersection. SFO has parallels and this IS a problem and it it still an open issue actually as SFO sometimes tells you NOT to overtake the guy ahead when using 28L and 28R visual parrallels. Some days it is an issue and some days not. Depending on your landing speed, it is not often possible to comply and you don't know it until after the game is played out because some pilots fly slow (er) and others are fast (er).
LAX has a double set of parallels and the north and south complexes each have close parallels. In the case of LAX, they can't be "EVEN" parallels on the North or South complex,but the North can handle one and the South one at the same time at least when visual. I hope you understand what I mean.
In LAX's case, the runway for landing is easily predictable . If you come from the North Pacific, RNO,PDX,SEA,SFO, Canada, you'll land 24R in a west operation. If from SAN,the South Pacific, and generally the east, you get 25L. Freight usually gets 25L. But LAX is interesting because they try to accomodate you by the terminal which you will be going. United generally arrives on the 25 complex and departs the same unless traffic is heavy on departure and then the ground controller gets a workout.
LAX is usually more visuals.
SFO has ceiling requirements that often are not high enough for parallel and even staggered visuals.
SFO also has an interesting drill that goes on during the midnight shift and pilots are EXPECTED to take off 10L over the bay if POSSIBLE and land to the West on 28 if possible. This means that they can't work many airplanes because they have to be careful on not releasing one the opposite direction until the other one is assured.
LAX takes off west most of the time and during the midnight lands east when possible. I have arrived from Hawaii at 0500 many times and you get either 6 or 7 landings unless the tailwind (usually there) exceeds 10 kts.
BTW, some carriers and airplanes have a 10 kt limit and others have a 15 kt limit.
So anyway, they are both unique...