American controllers and airports
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In terms of coming to a halt, it does in places.You can tell the controller is overworked when he says. Everybody stop talking and listen. Don't speak unless I call you. When that happens, it is bad!!!
On reading back all of the clearance (other than hold short etc.) almost every airline is the same and I don't read back all the useless information because it accomplishes nothing. If an approach controller vectors you for final like the last 100 airplanes, why would it be any different to hear something other than XXX, cleared for the ILS runway 28R, maintain speed 160 to the marker. contact tower on 120.9? We all know the runway in use. If we have been paying attention we know that the guy has 3 or 5 miles between airplanes. We all know he wants 160 to the marker. And we all know the tower frequency.
To wit: How come (at least in America) that if one understands his clearance on clearance delivery, that is is acceptable and expected to ONLY read the transponder code back? Somehow the system works .....
On reading back all of the clearance (other than hold short etc.) almost every airline is the same and I don't read back all the useless information because it accomplishes nothing. If an approach controller vectors you for final like the last 100 airplanes, why would it be any different to hear something other than XXX, cleared for the ILS runway 28R, maintain speed 160 to the marker. contact tower on 120.9? We all know the runway in use. If we have been paying attention we know that the guy has 3 or 5 miles between airplanes. We all know he wants 160 to the marker. And we all know the tower frequency.
To wit: How come (at least in America) that if one understands his clearance on clearance delivery, that is is acceptable and expected to ONLY read the transponder code back? Somehow the system works .....
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Mike Does the 7110.65 specifically say you must say hold short if the pilot calls and you can't put him/her into position?
I can't find any requirement to do so either. The only thing close I find is in para 3-9-4, to wit:
h. When a local controller delivers or amends an ATC clearance to an aircraft awaiting departure and that aircraft is holding short of a runway or is holding in position on a runway, an additional clearance shall be issued to prevent the possibility of the aircraft inadvertently taxiing onto the runway and/or beginning takeoff roll. In such cases, append one of the following ATC instructions as appropriate:
1. HOLD SHORT OF RUNWAY, or
2. HOLD IN POSITION.
1. HOLD SHORT OF RUNWAY, or
2. HOLD IN POSITION.
Having said that, it's my personal preference to always use the phrase "Hold Short" when replying to an aircraft that says "Ready for Takeoff". On the other hand, pilots are all different, and many will approach the end of the runway and say "Nxxxxx is holding short of runway 17L", to which I might only reply, "Roger".
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7110.65 link http://www.aviationpolicy.org/airports.htm toward the bottom of the page.
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Let me clarify this... If a pilot calls "holding short" tower does NOT require to issue a hold short instruction? If on the other hand a pilot calls "ready for departure" does tower then need to issue a "hold short" instruction?
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7777,
As I read the 7110.65, there is no requirement to say the words, "Hold Short" in response to an aircraft that has called "Ready for Takeoff, though I believe it's good operating practice. What the .65 DOES say is to use the phrase "Hold Short" if you need to tell an aircraft or vehicle to remain clear of a runway, and then requires that the controller get a read-back of that restriction.
What's the difference you ask? Well, in the first case, the aircraft is already required to hold short absent a clearance to enter the active runway.
If a pilot announces to me that he/she IS holding short of a runway, why should I repeat that phrase right back to the pilot? And wouldn't that just require the pilot to read it right back to me, leading us right back to our point of origin???
(edited for grammar)
As I read the 7110.65, there is no requirement to say the words, "Hold Short" in response to an aircraft that has called "Ready for Takeoff, though I believe it's good operating practice. What the .65 DOES say is to use the phrase "Hold Short" if you need to tell an aircraft or vehicle to remain clear of a runway, and then requires that the controller get a read-back of that restriction.
What's the difference you ask? Well, in the first case, the aircraft is already required to hold short absent a clearance to enter the active runway.
If a pilot announces to me that he/she IS holding short of a runway, why should I repeat that phrase right back to the pilot? And wouldn't that just require the pilot to read it right back to me, leading us right back to our point of origin???
(edited for grammar)
Last edited by vector4fun; 30th Jan 2004 at 20:40.
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Vector4Fun,
If an aircraft is taxied out by ground, no the controller does not have to tell the aircraft to hold short, but sometimes when dealing with a student you will.
IF, a pilot calls me and says that he is ready to go, or anything along those lines, I will tell the pilot to HOLD SHORT, if I can not clear them for take off, or put them into Position on the runway.
I've witnessed too many GA pilots go sailing past the hold short lines, and yes, some got onto the runway when a controller just acknowledged that they heard that they were ready.
My theory is you are better SAFE than SORRY, so if I'm working Local, and a pilot calls ready, I don't care if they are number one, or number 6 for departure, I will tell them to HOLD SHORT, unless I can clear them for takeoff or put them into Position and Hold.
Mike
NATCA FWA
If an aircraft is taxied out by ground, no the controller does not have to tell the aircraft to hold short, but sometimes when dealing with a student you will.
IF, a pilot calls me and says that he is ready to go, or anything along those lines, I will tell the pilot to HOLD SHORT, if I can not clear them for take off, or put them into Position on the runway.
I've witnessed too many GA pilots go sailing past the hold short lines, and yes, some got onto the runway when a controller just acknowledged that they heard that they were ready.
My theory is you are better SAFE than SORRY, so if I'm working Local, and a pilot calls ready, I don't care if they are number one, or number 6 for departure, I will tell them to HOLD SHORT, unless I can clear them for takeoff or put them into Position and Hold.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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Just saying "Roger" to a pilot rolling towards the runway "Ready for departure". Hmmm. Not very professional. Runway incursions ARE a problem.
Jim M. asked about the "Request" bit for quite ordinary R/T exchanges. Where did it originate. The military? Busy schools where a student might block the frequency?
Best regards
Jim M. asked about the "Request" bit for quite ordinary R/T exchanges. Where did it originate. The military? Busy schools where a student might block the frequency?
Best regards
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Hi Jim;
Sorry, I've been away doing some work travel... As to your question about chop. Probably the problem is that there is nothing for Chop in weather reporting. It is something that we use as "slang" in this country and it is accepted, but there is nothing in the official books for reporting chop. It is all reported as turbulence.
For the person asking about the visual on the Quiet Bridge. If you can't maintain visual due the aircrafts position, then you need to tell the controller that you are not going to be able to keep him in sight. If you accept the clearance and then lose sight ( ala PSA 727 in San Diego.) then we won't know that you can't.
regards
Scott
Sorry, I've been away doing some work travel... As to your question about chop. Probably the problem is that there is nothing for Chop in weather reporting. It is something that we use as "slang" in this country and it is accepted, but there is nothing in the official books for reporting chop. It is all reported as turbulence.
For the person asking about the visual on the Quiet Bridge. If you can't maintain visual due the aircrafts position, then you need to tell the controller that you are not going to be able to keep him in sight. If you accept the clearance and then lose sight ( ala PSA 727 in San Diego.) then we won't know that you can't.
regards
Scott
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Jim
I've also been away. About the ferry........Toronto's new mayor just nixed a plan to put in a bridge
You should feel special though: you landed at the most noise restrictive airport in the world and then took the shortest ferry ride in the world!!
XA
I've also been away. About the ferry........Toronto's new mayor just nixed a plan to put in a bridge
You should feel special though: you landed at the most noise restrictive airport in the world and then took the shortest ferry ride in the world!!
XA
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clearance delivery
The few times I flew in Europe I noticed that clearances are issued at a rather inconvenient time.
Why are clearances in Europe issued right before you are cleared for take-off? It creates a popup of departure & enroute charts in the cockpit almost as bad as some internet sites.
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Why are clearances in Europe issued right before you are cleared for take-off? It creates a popup of departure & enroute charts in the cockpit almost as bad as some internet sites.
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Hi West Coast;
Don't think that you will find it though in the NWS books... Could be that I am wrong since I haven't gone into them for a few years. But it was always taught that you report turbulence and that is what the WX service has on the forms too <G>...
regards
Scott
Don't think that you will find it though in the NWS books... Could be that I am wrong since I haven't gone into them for a few years. But it was always taught that you report turbulence and that is what the WX service has on the forms too <G>...
regards
Scott
Scott
I do understand what your saying, I just wonder how many pilots use the NWS standards. Just as you source the 7110.65 for your phraseology, the FAR/AIM is where a pilot goes. I don't discount NWS turbulence descriptions but the most likely location a pilot will search for and find a proper description for what they experienced is the FAR/AIM, where chop is defined as a valid reporting term.
Out of sheer boredom I went to the NWS site and pilled the document out after a brief search. They use the same turbulance reporting criteria matrix as is in the AIM.
http://www.weather.gov/wsom/manual/archives/ND229107.HTML#7.2.1 Severe
Go about halfway down the document to find it.
I do understand what your saying, I just wonder how many pilots use the NWS standards. Just as you source the 7110.65 for your phraseology, the FAR/AIM is where a pilot goes. I don't discount NWS turbulence descriptions but the most likely location a pilot will search for and find a proper description for what they experienced is the FAR/AIM, where chop is defined as a valid reporting term.
Out of sheer boredom I went to the NWS site and pilled the document out after a brief search. They use the same turbulance reporting criteria matrix as is in the AIM.
http://www.weather.gov/wsom/manual/archives/ND229107.HTML#7.2.1 Severe
Go about halfway down the document to find it.
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Well,I'm back from a new area of the world where they probably won't run out of gas nor sand!
On turbulence, I am surprised that everybody ISN'T playing by the same book. Could this be some oversight? If in the U.S. a controller (officially) does not use the same terms pilots are using, I can see why it doesn't work in Japan or other countries.
Your posting made me think of a quote a Captain made many years ago to a controller going over NW Florida at cruise. He said, "Do you the difference between light and moderate turbulence? Well, it's like being kicked by a mule or a mouse"!
On YYZ downtown, I am surprised it is still not closed after 9/11 by politcians. Of course one nutcake could take off from ANY location and end up in the side of any building if so deranged.
On SFO, I understand about what happens when you are attempting to follow somebody visually and lose them in the low(er) clouds. I am referring to following someone when both a VFR and APPROACH spaces them as best them can (staggered) and then one airplane overtakes or closes the gap to the other. I am never asked about what speed I will or can fly. I think the controller just assumes what I will do and that goes back to everybody flies airplanes a little faster or slower which is unpredictable by the controller.
As an aside, I get back to SFO about noon on the 10th on a new China Airlines route from BNA. It will be a new routing from ANC-BNA-SFO. Arriving in SFO at noon (aka daylight) with a freighter will be a new experience. Can I request 28R now? How about a straight in and cross Cedes at 10 and 250 and be #1???
For my controller experts, what goes into the FAA deciding when they'll create a separate frequency for Clearance Delivery? Is there a number count that must be achieved or if the ground guy is overwhelmed every day and/or makes mistakes trying to work ground AND give ATC clearances, is it obvious to the local management?
Many countries do NOT have a clearance delivery frequency. And many mid-size places do everything on ground and some even do everything on the tower freq. Many places in the world issue an ATC clerance on taxi out. I really don't know why and it is somewhat more distracting than it needs to be. Since it is going to be the same clearnace 5 mintues earlier or 5 minutes later, I do not understand why it couldn't be given in advance at the gate. During the taxi out, there are checklists to be run. The cabin usually has some problem and often there is some mechinical issue or weight planning issue to be resolved.
On turbulence, I am surprised that everybody ISN'T playing by the same book. Could this be some oversight? If in the U.S. a controller (officially) does not use the same terms pilots are using, I can see why it doesn't work in Japan or other countries.
Your posting made me think of a quote a Captain made many years ago to a controller going over NW Florida at cruise. He said, "Do you the difference between light and moderate turbulence? Well, it's like being kicked by a mule or a mouse"!
On YYZ downtown, I am surprised it is still not closed after 9/11 by politcians. Of course one nutcake could take off from ANY location and end up in the side of any building if so deranged.
On SFO, I understand about what happens when you are attempting to follow somebody visually and lose them in the low(er) clouds. I am referring to following someone when both a VFR and APPROACH spaces them as best them can (staggered) and then one airplane overtakes or closes the gap to the other. I am never asked about what speed I will or can fly. I think the controller just assumes what I will do and that goes back to everybody flies airplanes a little faster or slower which is unpredictable by the controller.
As an aside, I get back to SFO about noon on the 10th on a new China Airlines route from BNA. It will be a new routing from ANC-BNA-SFO. Arriving in SFO at noon (aka daylight) with a freighter will be a new experience. Can I request 28R now? How about a straight in and cross Cedes at 10 and 250 and be #1???
For my controller experts, what goes into the FAA deciding when they'll create a separate frequency for Clearance Delivery? Is there a number count that must be achieved or if the ground guy is overwhelmed every day and/or makes mistakes trying to work ground AND give ATC clearances, is it obvious to the local management?
Many countries do NOT have a clearance delivery frequency. And many mid-size places do everything on ground and some even do everything on the tower freq. Many places in the world issue an ATC clerance on taxi out. I really don't know why and it is somewhat more distracting than it needs to be. Since it is going to be the same clearnace 5 mintues earlier or 5 minutes later, I do not understand why it couldn't be given in advance at the gate. During the taxi out, there are checklists to be run. The cabin usually has some problem and often there is some mechinical issue or weight planning issue to be resolved.
