American controllers and airports
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Jim;
OH NO!!!! Not Dynasty!!!!! We used to HATE working them. When they showed up we just got everyone out of the way and watched what they were going to do...
As to the don't pass when doing visual with another aircraft. We have had many discussions on this in ATPAC (Air Traffic Procedures Advisory Committee). One of the things we had to try to explain to the pilot group is that when you are instructed to maintain visual separation from the other aircraft in front of you, it is real hard to do when you pass him and can't see him anymore. So you are actually in violation of your clearance. The controllers had to resort to advising not to pass to try to keep this from happening.
regards
Scott
PS. As to different pilots flying the same airplane differently. AMEN!
OH NO!!!! Not Dynasty!!!!! We used to HATE working them. When they showed up we just got everyone out of the way and watched what they were going to do...
As to the don't pass when doing visual with another aircraft. We have had many discussions on this in ATPAC (Air Traffic Procedures Advisory Committee). One of the things we had to try to explain to the pilot group is that when you are instructed to maintain visual separation from the other aircraft in front of you, it is real hard to do when you pass him and can't see him anymore. So you are actually in violation of your clearance. The controllers had to resort to advising not to pass to try to keep this from happening.
regards
Scott
PS. As to different pilots flying the same airplane differently. AMEN!
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Intresting remark about violating the clearence when the aircraft is behind you, arrived SFO yesterday for the quiet bridge arrival 28R, while on the approach a UAL 37 was making a left base to 28L, I was told to maintain visual seperation, problem is the UAL joined the final behind me and never caught up to me the entire approach, bad phraeseology or was I supposed to follow this aircraft somehow?
D L
Intresting remark about violating the clearence when the aircraft is behind you, arrived SFO yesterday for the quiet bridge arrival 28R, while on the approach a UAL 37 was making a left base to 28L, I was told to maintain visual seperation, problem is the UAL joined the final behind me and never caught up to me the entire approach, bad phraeseology or was I supposed to follow this aircraft somehow?
D L
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DREAM,
It sounds like the other aircraft should had been told to maintain visual seperation with you, as you indicated how can you maintain visual with someone you can't see.
Mike
NATCA FWA
It sounds like the other aircraft should had been told to maintain visual seperation with you, as you indicated how can you maintain visual with someone you can't see.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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Coast-I do get to YVR and yes the Canadians are very accomodating...Eh?
With my light airplane when back in the east, I flew into the Toronto Island airport and that was interesting to take a boat over to the "mainland".
On the Dynasty call sign, things are improving and the biggest problem I see is that when somebody doesn't understand what the controller wants, they should just say STANDBY and not leave the controller wondering whether you either got the tramission or understand it.
But something that I found interesting yesterday was that controllers of many countries apparently do not understand what I call basic turbulence categories. I think it was Thailand ATC,but I made a report of moderate chop. When no response, I guessed they didn't understand the word CHOP so I just made it moderate turbulence. I am not sure they undertood that because the response was the classic "SAY AGAIN" (which essentially means I have no idea what you just said and I'll call the english dude in to interpret!)!
I am not sure if there are controllers from other than the US/Canada/GB here on this forum, but aren't turbulence categories all international? Light chop, Light , Moderate Chop, Moderate turbulence, Severe, and extreme. they are all based on transport category airplanes and have very specific definitions.
On the SFO (or other parallel approach places), SFO sometimes issues orders/directions to NOT PASS UP THE AIRPLANE AHEAD. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes landing at the same time on 28L and 28R seems to be o.k.
I understand that you can't keep the other airplane in sight if you pass him since rear view mirros are optional equipment <bfg>!
But more often than not, I get paired up with an RJ or prop or even another jet that isn't doing the same speed. The chances of two airplanes doing the exact same speed are rare. So it is assumed that whatever you are doing at the marker is what the controller is happy with. I have heard discussions inside the marker when the controller tells the overtaking airplane NOT to do that. When he says,"there ain't no way I can do what you ask short of spinning in with stalls inside the outer marker, the controller either lives with it or sends the second guy around.
Coast-I do get to YVR and yes the Canadians are very accomodating...Eh?
With my light airplane when back in the east, I flew into the Toronto Island airport and that was interesting to take a boat over to the "mainland".
On the Dynasty call sign, things are improving and the biggest problem I see is that when somebody doesn't understand what the controller wants, they should just say STANDBY and not leave the controller wondering whether you either got the tramission or understand it.
But something that I found interesting yesterday was that controllers of many countries apparently do not understand what I call basic turbulence categories. I think it was Thailand ATC,but I made a report of moderate chop. When no response, I guessed they didn't understand the word CHOP so I just made it moderate turbulence. I am not sure they undertood that because the response was the classic "SAY AGAIN" (which essentially means I have no idea what you just said and I'll call the english dude in to interpret!)!
I am not sure if there are controllers from other than the US/Canada/GB here on this forum, but aren't turbulence categories all international? Light chop, Light , Moderate Chop, Moderate turbulence, Severe, and extreme. they are all based on transport category airplanes and have very specific definitions.
On the SFO (or other parallel approach places), SFO sometimes issues orders/directions to NOT PASS UP THE AIRPLANE AHEAD. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes landing at the same time on 28L and 28R seems to be o.k.
I understand that you can't keep the other airplane in sight if you pass him since rear view mirros are optional equipment <bfg>!
But more often than not, I get paired up with an RJ or prop or even another jet that isn't doing the same speed. The chances of two airplanes doing the exact same speed are rare. So it is assumed that whatever you are doing at the marker is what the controller is happy with. I have heard discussions inside the marker when the controller tells the overtaking airplane NOT to do that. When he says,"there ain't no way I can do what you ask short of spinning in with stalls inside the outer marker, the controller either lives with it or sends the second guy around.
On the quiet bridge it is common to be told to maintain visual. I have also noticed that NORCAL will also get the other guy to maintain visual if its appears that the natural progression has the original aircraft ahead as they pair.
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Comments from an American in Europe
Great thread everyone.
Jim M., I feel your pain, but ATC handling in America is in many occasions more customer friendly than in some, but not all, European countries.
I am based at Naples, Italy, but have California and Florida residences, and started flying in Central California in 1967, but flying the last four plus years in Europe.
In Naples, it is about impossible to get a takeoff clearance if there is an Alitalia MD-80 on final (one runway 24/06) at ten miles out (in VMC). (We are flying military LearJets).
It is about impossible to get a visual approach if there is an airline within twenty-five miles of the aerodrome (in VMC).
It is about impossible to get a VFR clearance for night currency circuits. I was told one night that they were expecting some diversions from Rome (30 minutes away). and could not accept us, keeping in mind that we can do each circuit (touch-and-go) in roughly two minutes (LearJet).
Our how about asking a French ATC (center/control/en route) to spell an intersection name and they refuse to answer up on the R-T after multiple requests.
Or how about the French ATC refusing our request to overfly France from London to Italy at FL410, but because we are not RVSM equipped (but have state aircraft exemption) they refuse. What conflicts do they expect at FL410? How do you spell vector? We will get asked if we can accept FL430! Every other country in the Eurocontrol region gives us about any altitude we want. Go figure.
I also believe that in most cases the service received depends on the individual ATC (France excepted). I had a Naples local controller one night advise me when I requested night VFR circuits that the wx was below VFR. I then asked for Special VFR circuits and it was approved. I did not know this was possible, but asked and received. Go figure.
Try to get a "direct" (short-cut) in France - NOT. But this is possible in other countries. In the lowlands and Scandinavia 300 mile shortcuts are not unusual.
In Italy you can not file "direct" on your flight plan, as Eurocontrol's software will reject it. You can however get directs once you are airborne, traffic permitting of course.
I find some of the ATC in Europe and the UK to be some of the best in the world.
I appreciate the explanation about ATC sequencing slower aircraft onto a shorter final. I used to fly prop air ambulances into SFO, and this is what Bay Approach (NorCal now?) did. It worked great. I remember telling Bay Approach while inbound from the North adjacent to Skaggs Island VOR that we needed to get on the ground at SFO ASAP as our patient was in a bad way. No problem! We were vectored onto a final to RWY 19R. As many of you know, this is in conflict with the departures on RWY 01L/R and also the arrivals on 28L/R. I told ATC that I would make the turnoff onto the North parallel prior to crossing 28R, and he replied "the runway is yours."
I wrote a "good-guy" letter thanking for the outstanding service. I am sure the patient (in cardiac arrest) appreciated it also.
Having said all of the above, I must emphasize that there are great ATC all over the world.
But as the lady said in the movie, "there is no place like home."
Check 6
Jim M., I feel your pain, but ATC handling in America is in many occasions more customer friendly than in some, but not all, European countries.
I am based at Naples, Italy, but have California and Florida residences, and started flying in Central California in 1967, but flying the last four plus years in Europe.
In Naples, it is about impossible to get a takeoff clearance if there is an Alitalia MD-80 on final (one runway 24/06) at ten miles out (in VMC). (We are flying military LearJets).
It is about impossible to get a visual approach if there is an airline within twenty-five miles of the aerodrome (in VMC).
It is about impossible to get a VFR clearance for night currency circuits. I was told one night that they were expecting some diversions from Rome (30 minutes away). and could not accept us, keeping in mind that we can do each circuit (touch-and-go) in roughly two minutes (LearJet).
Our how about asking a French ATC (center/control/en route) to spell an intersection name and they refuse to answer up on the R-T after multiple requests.
Or how about the French ATC refusing our request to overfly France from London to Italy at FL410, but because we are not RVSM equipped (but have state aircraft exemption) they refuse. What conflicts do they expect at FL410? How do you spell vector? We will get asked if we can accept FL430! Every other country in the Eurocontrol region gives us about any altitude we want. Go figure.
I also believe that in most cases the service received depends on the individual ATC (France excepted). I had a Naples local controller one night advise me when I requested night VFR circuits that the wx was below VFR. I then asked for Special VFR circuits and it was approved. I did not know this was possible, but asked and received. Go figure.
Try to get a "direct" (short-cut) in France - NOT. But this is possible in other countries. In the lowlands and Scandinavia 300 mile shortcuts are not unusual.
In Italy you can not file "direct" on your flight plan, as Eurocontrol's software will reject it. You can however get directs once you are airborne, traffic permitting of course.
I find some of the ATC in Europe and the UK to be some of the best in the world.
I appreciate the explanation about ATC sequencing slower aircraft onto a shorter final. I used to fly prop air ambulances into SFO, and this is what Bay Approach (NorCal now?) did. It worked great. I remember telling Bay Approach while inbound from the North adjacent to Skaggs Island VOR that we needed to get on the ground at SFO ASAP as our patient was in a bad way. No problem! We were vectored onto a final to RWY 19R. As many of you know, this is in conflict with the departures on RWY 01L/R and also the arrivals on 28L/R. I told ATC that I would make the turnoff onto the North parallel prior to crossing 28R, and he replied "the runway is yours."
I wrote a "good-guy" letter thanking for the outstanding service. I am sure the patient (in cardiac arrest) appreciated it also.
Having said all of the above, I must emphasize that there are great ATC all over the world.
But as the lady said in the movie, "there is no place like home."
Check 6
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Overall, I have had great experiences flying in the states. There are good controllers and ones that have a bad day.
I used to instruct at SAT. SAT used to be a really busy airport in regards to flight instruction and many students came from Mexico, the Middle East and Europe. Teaching them aviation English was sometimes a great challenge.
90% of the time when a plane holds short of the runway and contacts the tower ("SAT tower Cessna 12345 holding short 12R, taxiway Kilo, ready for departure), the tower simply replies with "Roger". No"hold short". On numerous occasions, some of my flight students wanted to taxi onto the runway. I have called the tower and was always told the term "roger" is only being applied when the freq is really busy.
This has turned into a bad habit at SAT.
I am not an air traffic controller, but isn´t the tower required to instruct "hold short"?
7 7 7 7
I used to instruct at SAT. SAT used to be a really busy airport in regards to flight instruction and many students came from Mexico, the Middle East and Europe. Teaching them aviation English was sometimes a great challenge.
90% of the time when a plane holds short of the runway and contacts the tower ("SAT tower Cessna 12345 holding short 12R, taxiway Kilo, ready for departure), the tower simply replies with "Roger". No"hold short". On numerous occasions, some of my flight students wanted to taxi onto the runway. I have called the tower and was always told the term "roger" is only being applied when the freq is really busy.
This has turned into a bad habit at SAT.I am not an air traffic controller, but isn´t the tower required to instruct "hold short"?
7 7 7 7
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I may be being stupid here, but didn't you already tell them that was what you were doing in your transmission? And how did you get there in the first place? Presumably with a taxi clearance as far as Kilo?
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What concerns me here is the potential for disaster. There was an incident/runway incursion with another flight school at the same airport for the same reason. Wouldn't surprise me if that had to do that SAT was in the first US top 10 of runway incursions two or three years ago. Besides, I have only noticed "Roger" at SAT and not at any other airport.
My understanding of the word roger in this context is because of frequency congestion. If they say hold short, they are required by the 7110.65 to receive a readback of the holdshort and if they don't then they have to again transmit to the aircraft in question something to the effect of "C/S readback hold instructions" No readback is required if they say roger and the aircraft doesn't reply. The strength of the argument would be that hopefully we all know that positive clearance is required on the runway and that roger means squat other than I know your there. I am not defending it, just my understanding of its use in this situation.
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" it's about impossible to get a VFR clearance for night currency circuits. "
no idea about italy but you can not be vfr at night in uk. it,s against the rules, why I don't know as i find it easier to spot aircraft at night than during the day
no idea about italy but you can not be vfr at night in uk. it,s against the rules, why I don't know as i find it easier to spot aircraft at night than during the day
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Check6 and the others...thanks for continuing an interesting thread. It is interesting to have controllers and pilots worldwide here. Maybe its time to pick on someone else for a while!!!
Is there anyone from NRT here or that has knowledge of NRT? I find that every time the wind changes 2 kts or goes to the other direction at NRT by 2 kts, they change runways.
In most countries, they just take the small tailwind and keep on the same runway. Unless it becomes operational impossible to takeoff and land, the runway should be left alone until a break in traffic demand occurs and then a runway change is fine. But I have had the NRT wind at 210/5 (using 16) and then the wind would go to 340/2 and they change runways. I think almost every airplane built can handle a 10 kt tailwind. Many operators can take a 15 kt tailwind with certain restrictions.
Now of course there are penalties and people taking off at MAX Gross weight and going long distances can't always take too much of a tailwind like 10 kts. I know in America, the wind is usually reported as light and variable below 5 kts and nobody even worries about it.
Can anyone offer a difference perspective or what most countries will do? Japan just sticks out like a sore thumb and I am not sure why the runway will flip back and forth a few times per hour. At any busy airport it takes a while to turn the operation around. Usually they ahve to delay vector and send everybody to a holding pattern.
Other than the customary one turn arriving at Heathrow, I hold more in Japan than all places in the world combined. Is my luck just bad???
Is there anyone from NRT here or that has knowledge of NRT? I find that every time the wind changes 2 kts or goes to the other direction at NRT by 2 kts, they change runways.
In most countries, they just take the small tailwind and keep on the same runway. Unless it becomes operational impossible to takeoff and land, the runway should be left alone until a break in traffic demand occurs and then a runway change is fine. But I have had the NRT wind at 210/5 (using 16) and then the wind would go to 340/2 and they change runways. I think almost every airplane built can handle a 10 kt tailwind. Many operators can take a 15 kt tailwind with certain restrictions.
Now of course there are penalties and people taking off at MAX Gross weight and going long distances can't always take too much of a tailwind like 10 kts. I know in America, the wind is usually reported as light and variable below 5 kts and nobody even worries about it.
Can anyone offer a difference perspective or what most countries will do? Japan just sticks out like a sore thumb and I am not sure why the runway will flip back and forth a few times per hour. At any busy airport it takes a while to turn the operation around. Usually they ahve to delay vector and send everybody to a holding pattern.
Other than the customary one turn arriving at Heathrow, I hold more in Japan than all places in the world combined. Is my luck just bad???
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Squawk7777,
Receiving only a "ROGER" when you called ready for departure and not being told to "HOLD SHORT", and receiving a read back that you are "HOLDING SHORT" should not be occuring anywhere in the U.S. Our 7110.65 mandates that we instruct you to hold short and that we receive a readback with the pilot saying that they are holding short.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Receiving only a "ROGER" when you called ready for departure and not being told to "HOLD SHORT", and receiving a read back that you are "HOLDING SHORT" should not be occuring anywhere in the U.S. Our 7110.65 mandates that we instruct you to hold short and that we receive a readback with the pilot saying that they are holding short.
Mike
NATCA FWA
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Mike...It is widespread and reading back EVERYTHING that a controller says would bring the system to a halt especially on landing. There is no way that every airplane can repeat everything simply to "land". XXX cleared for the aprroach. Maintain 3,000 until cross XX. Keep your airspeed at 160 or above until the outer marker. Plan to turn off at taxiway Q and then.........
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Jim,
Hold Short Restrictions are a "MANDATORY" read back item. If you pull up to a runway after being told to hold short, and you do not read back the hold short, and someone is on short final, and I can't get you to read back the Hold Short Restriction, I "MUST" send the acft on final around. Granted if this happens the offending pilot will end up having a chat with a FSDO agent.
As for reading back the entire approach clearance, I've had many pilots read back the entire clearance, and others state their call sign and say cleared for the approach, either one works. As for bringing the system to a stand still with complete readbacks, that may be a factor below the Mason Dixon line (those southern pilots and controllers talk awlful slow), but not up north.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Hold Short Restrictions are a "MANDATORY" read back item. If you pull up to a runway after being told to hold short, and you do not read back the hold short, and someone is on short final, and I can't get you to read back the Hold Short Restriction, I "MUST" send the acft on final around. Granted if this happens the offending pilot will end up having a chat with a FSDO agent.
As for reading back the entire approach clearance, I've had many pilots read back the entire clearance, and others state their call sign and say cleared for the approach, either one works. As for bringing the system to a stand still with complete readbacks, that may be a factor below the Mason Dixon line (those southern pilots and controllers talk awlful slow), but not up north.
Mike
NATCA FWA
Mike
Does the 7110.65 specifically say you must say hold short if the pilot calls and you can't put him/her into position? I understand that if you do then you must receive a readback. If someone calls for T/O with another guy on short final and it will only be a few seconds you can put him in position, can you then say roger so you don't have to go through the drill. I'm looking through chapter III and I don't see specific prohibition against doing so. Is it an interpretation of another rule?
Does the 7110.65 specifically say you must say hold short if the pilot calls and you can't put him/her into position? I understand that if you do then you must receive a readback. If someone calls for T/O with another guy on short final and it will only be a few seconds you can put him in position, can you then say roger so you don't have to go through the drill. I'm looking through chapter III and I don't see specific prohibition against doing so. Is it an interpretation of another rule?