West Country ATCO recruitment question
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West Country ATCO recruitment question
Honest info/views sought please: we have a super new Tower, absolutely excellent kit (inc. daylight viewing screens, superb RDPS/comms etc which actually work) plus very fast-growing commercial traffic (180-210 scehdules/charters a day) and a complex ATC environment, guaranteed to give job-satisfaction. Lovely part of the SW UK to live in too.
So, the question I pose is this: why do ATCOs from NATS or from the larger UK non-NATS regional airports apparently consider us (and maybe other ATS Providers in this situation?) a less-than- attractive place to seek their ATC future? I'm certainly not denigrating those ATCOs who work at other non-NATS units - we've all earned the same "yellow book", after all and almost every ATSU has its professional challenges of one sort or another - but we feel that experience of working at a comparable airport in Class A/D is very important when we recruit. (yeah, I know, everyone has to start somewhere, even if they work their way up the career ladder over time...)
I can obviously guess at some of the reasons for the lack of interest amongst many ATCOs: airspace (or the lack of it); salaries; retirement age; pension etc. That said, are their some misconceptions/myths going round the market-place? I'd welcome the views of NATS ATCOs and perhaps those at the busier non-NATS regionals (EGNT, EGNX etc) on this issue, if you can be bothered to respond. I also have a strong feeling that the much-talked-about UK ATCO shortage will be in evidence quite soon. Any thoughts on that, anyone? Nothing held against future applicants, I promise: this is purely for a bit of research.... many thanks.
So, the question I pose is this: why do ATCOs from NATS or from the larger UK non-NATS regional airports apparently consider us (and maybe other ATS Providers in this situation?) a less-than- attractive place to seek their ATC future? I'm certainly not denigrating those ATCOs who work at other non-NATS units - we've all earned the same "yellow book", after all and almost every ATSU has its professional challenges of one sort or another - but we feel that experience of working at a comparable airport in Class A/D is very important when we recruit. (yeah, I know, everyone has to start somewhere, even if they work their way up the career ladder over time...)
I can obviously guess at some of the reasons for the lack of interest amongst many ATCOs: airspace (or the lack of it); salaries; retirement age; pension etc. That said, are their some misconceptions/myths going round the market-place? I'd welcome the views of NATS ATCOs and perhaps those at the busier non-NATS regionals (EGNT, EGNX etc) on this issue, if you can be bothered to respond. I also have a strong feeling that the much-talked-about UK ATCO shortage will be in evidence quite soon. Any thoughts on that, anyone? Nothing held against future applicants, I promise: this is purely for a bit of research.... many thanks.
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ATCOJ30
Unless your employers can improve significantly on the re-numeration package that Nats and other ATCOS at busier non Nats units are offered,why should we consider uprooting our families to work at your unit. At the end of the day, what you take home at the end of he month and how you have had to work for it is the deciding factor
Unless your employers can improve significantly on the re-numeration package that Nats and other ATCOS at busier non Nats units are offered,why should we consider uprooting our families to work at your unit. At the end of the day, what you take home at the end of he month and how you have had to work for it is the deciding factor
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You are going to have to go some to encourage people out of NATS. Salary and prospects are very high on the list and a distrust of current private airport operators, and let's not forget the pension scheme. From what I hear there is going to be a considerable shortage in the non-NATS world. Market forces will dictate pay.
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Another thing to consider is 'life sequence' as it were.
If you're looking for like experience from the self improver line then the chances are they're going to have family considerations.
They're probably half way through paying off the mortgage. The children are probably approaching early teens. End result - they're not going to uproot the family if they've got GCSE results of the progeny to consider. Once they've got through that trauma then it's uni and the costs involved, or, they're divorced, still paying for the kids and don't want the hassle of extra expense through moving.
It's not just the professional side of the problem you're looking at, but personal circumstances. Most people after all work to live, not live to work.
If you're looking for like experience from the self improver line then the chances are they're going to have family considerations.
They're probably half way through paying off the mortgage. The children are probably approaching early teens. End result - they're not going to uproot the family if they've got GCSE results of the progeny to consider. Once they've got through that trauma then it's uni and the costs involved, or, they're divorced, still paying for the kids and don't want the hassle of extra expense through moving.
It's not just the professional side of the problem you're looking at, but personal circumstances. Most people after all work to live, not live to work.
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Opportunities regarding progression, chances of taking further professional qualifications, the back up of a larger company behind you.
The knowledge that the government is still a safety Net in NATS unlike other ATC providers.
The chance to move into Area Control if you so wish, and pay and pension.
Would I give up voluntarily working for NATS ....NO. In spite of all its faults we still know that the grass is not greener outside ,in the UK at least that is.
The knowledge that the government is still a safety Net in NATS unlike other ATC providers.
The chance to move into Area Control if you so wish, and pay and pension.
Would I give up voluntarily working for NATS ....NO. In spite of all its faults we still know that the grass is not greener outside ,in the UK at least that is.
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So ATCOJ30;
Just where is the west country airport???? Outsiders with a couple of years before retirement could be interested. We get to retire with 20 years on the boards age 50 or 25 years on the boards any age... I'll be 49 <G>...
Scott
PS, what does it pay.
Just where is the west country airport???? Outsiders with a couple of years before retirement could be interested. We get to retire with 20 years on the boards age 50 or 25 years on the boards any age... I'll be 49 <G>...
Scott
PS, what does it pay.
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I am taking a guess here but sounds remarkably like Bristol Lulsgate 
Wow Scott, do they let you stay on in a non operational position?
Experience in ATC is of to much value just to retire it off so early.
Wow Scott, do they let you stay on in a non operational position?
Experience in ATC is of to much value just to retire it off so early.
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Scott - that's a regional airport in the south-west of the UK. Top of the radar scale (after 4-5 years service) is approx £47K (about US $80K). Supervisors are on about £50K (US $83K), plus a few bits and pieces for Examiner- and On-the-job-training-instructor qualifications. Our retirement age is 65 but youy can go at 60 if you have the years in (40 years max for a half-salary pension).
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Still, anyone who has been in the NATS training system for 7 or 8 years before validating will always sing it's praises. After all, one wouldn't want to "shoot oneself in the foot" as it were, by running down one's employer in public.
NATS is a madhouse and as ATCOJ30 says, we've all earned the same yellow book (5 ratings in my case, originally), it's just that some of us didn't get the further training opportunities that others did. It took me a few years to figure out that I should have worn more lippy and nail varnish!
Nowt wrong with non- NATS, especially if you get the opportunity to work at one of the busier regionals ( and it's busier than it's nearest NATS neighbour).
Come on over and try it Scott, sunny Somerset is ever so nice and so's the beer, and so's the cider.
NATS is a madhouse and as ATCOJ30 says, we've all earned the same yellow book (5 ratings in my case, originally), it's just that some of us didn't get the further training opportunities that others did. It took me a few years to figure out that I should have worn more lippy and nail varnish!
Nowt wrong with non- NATS, especially if you get the opportunity to work at one of the busier regionals ( and it's busier than it's nearest NATS neighbour).
Come on over and try it Scott, sunny Somerset is ever so nice and so's the beer, and so's the cider.
Last edited by Standard Noise; 18th Nov 2003 at 01:00.
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ATCOJ30
That's more or less NATS ATCO3 pay. So why would anyone move from NATS to your airport? NATS retire at 60, the CAA Pension scheme is a good one and, for all their faults, NATS are a fairly safe employer. There also other places to go in the empire and earn more if the new WP comes in.
If there was a downturn in traffic at your airport where would management look to save money first? The top earners??
That's more or less NATS ATCO3 pay. So why would anyone move from NATS to your airport? NATS retire at 60, the CAA Pension scheme is a good one and, for all their faults, NATS are a fairly safe employer. There also other places to go in the empire and earn more if the new WP comes in.
If there was a downturn in traffic at your airport where would management look to save money first? The top earners??
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In addition to other comments made, it's also one of the most expensive of the UK to buy a house if you're moving from anywhere North of Bristol.
But, perhaps, more importantly, Bristol has been through several owners over the last few years, and although perhaps the present incumbants have done more than the others to make it an attractive place to work, there's no guarantee to anyone joining that it will not be sold again and that they may be out on the street, as has happened in the past.
Your H.R department does you no favours, I've never applied or even been attracted to do so, but I know atco's who've met and exceeded all the pre requisites of advertised posts, and they've never even had the courtesy of a reply to an application.
But, perhaps, more importantly, Bristol has been through several owners over the last few years, and although perhaps the present incumbants have done more than the others to make it an attractive place to work, there's no guarantee to anyone joining that it will not be sold again and that they may be out on the street, as has happened in the past.
Your H.R department does you no favours, I've never applied or even been attracted to do so, but I know atco's who've met and exceeded all the pre requisites of advertised posts, and they've never even had the courtesy of a reply to an application.
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J30
of the last six arrivals at egnx, four came direct from NATS, and one from NATS via blackpool-though the pay and conditions seem to be similar to yours, we seem to have gained a reputation as the non NATS unit to join-can not think of any reason why that should be-has Bristol gained a rep' as a place not to apply to as we did in the 1980's? its not somewhere that the controllers here get itchy feet for when adverts appear-but again its nothing solid that you could point to as a reason!
of the last six arrivals at egnx, four came direct from NATS, and one from NATS via blackpool-though the pay and conditions seem to be similar to yours, we seem to have gained a reputation as the non NATS unit to join-can not think of any reason why that should be-has Bristol gained a rep' as a place not to apply to as we did in the 1980's? its not somewhere that the controllers here get itchy feet for when adverts appear-but again its nothing solid that you could point to as a reason!
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Flower and ATCOJ;
Thanks for the info... I do love it out there... I've visited many a time with my wife. She also enjoys it there, but I have to confess and will probably get knocked for it, she does prefer Scotland <G>.
For more info to you, we are forced out of active ATC at age 56. We can try to find a staff job if we want to stay on but those are not in great abundance. For those of us on the older civil service retirement, we as previously stated are fully vested with 20 years on the boards ( staff time not included ) and age 50 or 25 years on the boards any age. After 27 years of service ( my five years of military time counts towards retirement computation.) our retirement pay goes up by 2% a year from the base of 50%. So if I were to go when I was eligeable <sp> I would be 49 years old with close to 30 years of govt. service. If I stayed a few more months I for the 30 years, I would get 56% of my base for retirement. I expect that I am going to stick around for a couple of extra years to pay off the house though.
The folks who are under the newer FERs system which is a stock plan which I won't go into get 2% a year over 20 years. A better deal, but they don't get the 50% after 20 years. They get a lesser amount along with the stock money...
regards
Scott
Thanks for the info... I do love it out there... I've visited many a time with my wife. She also enjoys it there, but I have to confess and will probably get knocked for it, she does prefer Scotland <G>.
For more info to you, we are forced out of active ATC at age 56. We can try to find a staff job if we want to stay on but those are not in great abundance. For those of us on the older civil service retirement, we as previously stated are fully vested with 20 years on the boards ( staff time not included ) and age 50 or 25 years on the boards any age. After 27 years of service ( my five years of military time counts towards retirement computation.) our retirement pay goes up by 2% a year from the base of 50%. So if I were to go when I was eligeable <sp> I would be 49 years old with close to 30 years of govt. service. If I stayed a few more months I for the 30 years, I would get 56% of my base for retirement. I expect that I am going to stick around for a couple of extra years to pay off the house though.
The folks who are under the newer FERs system which is a stock plan which I won't go into get 2% a year over 20 years. A better deal, but they don't get the 50% after 20 years. They get a lesser amount along with the stock money...
regards
Scott
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I'd like to know
Why the stipulation for CAS? This surely cuts down on your applicants. Many talented controllers work outside CAS through no fault of their own. How can the known traffic environment of CAS be any harder or more complicated than working outside where traffic can just pop up, call you out of nowhere and without warning? RAS is in essence no different to RCS and indeed is harder to practice.
As far as improving your package, I would suggest you re-instate the final salary pension, check out the latest pay scales at NATS and EGNX and buy half a dozen decent properties nearby to rent to new staff at cheap rates.
As far as improving your package, I would suggest you re-instate the final salary pension, check out the latest pay scales at NATS and EGNX and buy half a dozen decent properties nearby to rent to new staff at cheap rates.
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Some of us in NATS would love to move out to the country, but the vast majority of us (90% or so in the last dozen years) only have an area rating. OK we once had a tower ticket, virtually never used, but unless you were one of the select few who were lucky enough to do an approach course, how many employers outside NATS provide an area service?
I suppose we could leave NATS, pay for our own approach course, and renew our tower tickets, but all of a sudden it's not sounding so appealing...
I suppose we could leave NATS, pay for our own approach course, and renew our tower tickets, but all of a sudden it's not sounding so appealing...
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Razors edge perhaps i am miss reading your post or you have seen something different in the original post question than myself.
If this is EGGD we are talking about they have a very small control zone, not adequate at all for their needs and all aircraft to and from Bristol have to be vectored outside CAS.
Both RIS and RAS can be very complex at times in the vicinity due to many fast military aircraft flying around the whole of the region.
Standard noise i am saddened by a couple of your comments, i don't actually think anyone was making any adverse comments against EGGD at all just stating why we were unlikely to leave NATS. Whilst there may be a few NATS ATCOS who take many years to validate the vast majority of us hold our own Yellow Book reasonably quickly, again that shows that NATS also realises that sometimes people need longer to get there but still after all the investment they have put into the student they are willing to give the individual an opportunity to succeed. There are some cases which are questionable but the vast majority who take longer go onto make a valuable contribution within the company.
As for the rather sexist comment
If this is EGGD we are talking about they have a very small control zone, not adequate at all for their needs and all aircraft to and from Bristol have to be vectored outside CAS.
Both RIS and RAS can be very complex at times in the vicinity due to many fast military aircraft flying around the whole of the region.
Standard noise i am saddened by a couple of your comments, i don't actually think anyone was making any adverse comments against EGGD at all just stating why we were unlikely to leave NATS. Whilst there may be a few NATS ATCOS who take many years to validate the vast majority of us hold our own Yellow Book reasonably quickly, again that shows that NATS also realises that sometimes people need longer to get there but still after all the investment they have put into the student they are willing to give the individual an opportunity to succeed. There are some cases which are questionable but the vast majority who take longer go onto make a valuable contribution within the company.
As for the rather sexist comment
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I would go anywhere, provided someone wants to sponsor me to do the Approach course. A valid ADC only licence seems to be somewhat restricting to future career development. 