West Country ATCO recruitment question
StandupfortheUlstermen
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flower - Where I come from, we are blunt and speak as we find, so I make no apologies for any comments that I make. I'm just more than a little hacked off by the attitude which pervades NATS that those of us who work elsewhere have little else to do all day than sit about twiddling our thumbs. Go to any party or outing where everyone else is from NATS and all you will hear is how miserable they all are and what bad people the NATS management are. If there's one thing NATS ATCO'S are good at, it's bitching about their lot! Then in public (ie here) the attitude changes and suddenly NATS is the all wonderful entity.
Bristol is the third non-NATS unit I've worked at, and by far the busiest. OK, the pay scales may not be the highest, something the management need to take note of, but it's not all about money, if you want to be rich, go be a mortgage advisor.
As for my sexist comments, I know of more women in NATS who have got what they want than men. If you really want, I'll give you some examples, but by PM only. I may be blunt, but I'm not a complete s**t.
Bristol is the third non-NATS unit I've worked at, and by far the busiest. OK, the pay scales may not be the highest, something the management need to take note of, but it's not all about money, if you want to be rich, go be a mortgage advisor.
As for my sexist comments, I know of more women in NATS who have got what they want than men. If you really want, I'll give you some examples, but by PM only. I may be blunt, but I'm not a complete s**t.
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Many thanks indeed for your comments, everyone who's posted: Not sure how (why?) the original theme of this post seems to have been side-tracked into other issues, mind you... Whatever has been said, relations with the NATS near-neighbour in Wales are PDG, I'm very pleased to say. 4 Cardiff ATCOs from the "opposite" Watch at a recent Bristol ATCOs retirement "do" is testimony to that.
As I suspected, the significant points seem to include Ts & Cs; cost of housing (surely it's an even bigger problem if you're posted to EGLL/KK/SS/ LACC or TC?); career development opportunities; job security; ADC/Area Ratings limitations and family ties - schools, working partner etc. Still not sure how EGNX has managed to attract the attention of former NATS ATCOs in such numbers though in recent years, unless the Ts &Cs are so much better than ours'? Maybe there's a perception too about the "big airport" scenario and operating within CAS? That said, take a look at the relative passenger figures and you'll see they are not so far apart: 3.5 - 4 million each, both pushing 5 million in 2004, and growing fast. Not much chance of a long-sleep on nights there either, I'd guess?
As for ATCOs with experience of Class A/D, it's indicative to me that those folk have probably worked at one or more of the UK's commercial airports perhaps, and may have experience of mixing IFR/VFR (in Class D). I readily accept that someone may have worked in an equally challenging environment from an ATC viewpoint (and worked harder too?) at a busy GA or military aerodrome in Class G (EGBJ, EGTK, EGKB, EGVP, EGKA come to mind). In our case, as Flower rightly says, there is the matter of providing RIS/RAS to 180-200 IFR "biggies" a day in Class G, of necessity, which some find more troubling to cope with than others, from experience. Having intensive military ops/gliers/balloons/GA so close to the small CTA/CTR boundaries is a good game to play but then we're not unique in that, I'm sure...
Scott - on your next trip across the Atlantic to the UK, come and pay us a visit. Same goes for any other ATCOs/ATSAs/pilots reading this who fancy an hour or three at Bristol (there, given it away now...)on a liaison visit: you'll be made very welcome indeed. An e-mail or a phone call will be fine with a couple of days notice.
As I suspected, the significant points seem to include Ts & Cs; cost of housing (surely it's an even bigger problem if you're posted to EGLL/KK/SS/ LACC or TC?); career development opportunities; job security; ADC/Area Ratings limitations and family ties - schools, working partner etc. Still not sure how EGNX has managed to attract the attention of former NATS ATCOs in such numbers though in recent years, unless the Ts &Cs are so much better than ours'? Maybe there's a perception too about the "big airport" scenario and operating within CAS? That said, take a look at the relative passenger figures and you'll see they are not so far apart: 3.5 - 4 million each, both pushing 5 million in 2004, and growing fast. Not much chance of a long-sleep on nights there either, I'd guess?
As for ATCOs with experience of Class A/D, it's indicative to me that those folk have probably worked at one or more of the UK's commercial airports perhaps, and may have experience of mixing IFR/VFR (in Class D). I readily accept that someone may have worked in an equally challenging environment from an ATC viewpoint (and worked harder too?) at a busy GA or military aerodrome in Class G (EGBJ, EGTK, EGKB, EGVP, EGKA come to mind). In our case, as Flower rightly says, there is the matter of providing RIS/RAS to 180-200 IFR "biggies" a day in Class G, of necessity, which some find more troubling to cope with than others, from experience. Having intensive military ops/gliers/balloons/GA so close to the small CTA/CTR boundaries is a good game to play but then we're not unique in that, I'm sure...
Scott - on your next trip across the Atlantic to the UK, come and pay us a visit. Same goes for any other ATCOs/ATSAs/pilots reading this who fancy an hour or three at Bristol (there, given it away now...)on a liaison visit: you'll be made very welcome indeed. An e-mail or a phone call will be fine with a couple of days notice.
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Whoa!, Standard Noise and BakTrak, it's not our fault you are not happy with your lot. I think what's been said is that, warts and all, NATS are OK to work for and not something to give up lightly and move out into the unknown and unpredictable private sector. As I said earlier, given a downturn in the market, who gets dumped first? The high earners, that's who. Maybe.
and leave flower alone.
and leave flower alone.
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Hi ATCOJ
I'll try to take some time to come visit the next time over. It will probably be a few years though. Was just over in the UK in Feb. ( had a bought with the shingles too <sigh>) and was not to far from you as I was visiting with cousins and an Aunt in Newport, Wales. Same cousin is going to come visit us in another five months.
regards
Scott
I'll try to take some time to come visit the next time over. It will probably be a few years though. Was just over in the UK in Feb. ( had a bought with the shingles too <sigh>) and was not to far from you as I was visiting with cousins and an Aunt in Newport, Wales. Same cousin is going to come visit us in another five months.
regards
Scott
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To Standard Noise and 360 baktrak.
If someone in my family annoys me I will moan and whinge about them but low betide anyone outside of my family who has a go at that family member as I will defend them totally.
The same goes for Company loyalty, I work in NATS and thus can legitimately have a good old whinge or moan , I make it a policy of mine not to criticise other units be they NATS or not, I do not have the inside knowledge to back up any arguments. I certainly have inside knowledge though to make complaints about my company and my company is also big enough to take those complaints on board. Very seldom do they act upon them but at least I know i can say what i like within all the normal reasonable parameters without fear of retribution.
I am quite frankly appalled by the derogatory comments made about females, i thought such comments had gone out with the Ark but it seems there may still be few out there not living in the 21st Century. Everyone of course can cite cases where someone has got away with things, I can however cite more men than women but that is simply because there are more male ATCOs than female ATCOs, should there be a 50/50 split i am sure things would even themselves out.
We are supposed to be a profession I wouldn't expect to hear such blatantly sexist comments from fellow professionals, be they NATS or non NATS
If someone in my family annoys me I will moan and whinge about them but low betide anyone outside of my family who has a go at that family member as I will defend them totally.
The same goes for Company loyalty, I work in NATS and thus can legitimately have a good old whinge or moan , I make it a policy of mine not to criticise other units be they NATS or not, I do not have the inside knowledge to back up any arguments. I certainly have inside knowledge though to make complaints about my company and my company is also big enough to take those complaints on board. Very seldom do they act upon them but at least I know i can say what i like within all the normal reasonable parameters without fear of retribution.
I am quite frankly appalled by the derogatory comments made about females, i thought such comments had gone out with the Ark but it seems there may still be few out there not living in the 21st Century. Everyone of course can cite cases where someone has got away with things, I can however cite more men than women but that is simply because there are more male ATCOs than female ATCOs, should there be a 50/50 split i am sure things would even themselves out.
We are supposed to be a profession I wouldn't expect to hear such blatantly sexist comments from fellow professionals, be they NATS or non NATS
I wasn't agreeing with the sexist comments, whatever they were, but with Standard Noises other comments. Having worked for both NATS and non-NATS units Standards statement seems to be fairly accurate.
Special VFR - Who says I'm not happy with 'my lot'?
Special VFR - Who says I'm not happy with 'my lot'?
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Ignoring the waffling abuse above...
It is quite smple. As said, there is no serious guarentee of a job for ever. However, there is far more job security within NATS.
Also - whilst we bitch and moan about pay, it is not THAT bad within NATS compared to externally.
At least one who left NATS from LHR Twr (18months ago) went to EGNX beacuse they offered him an extra £20k or so IMMEDIATELY!! (He was on the bottom of the scale) OK - it might not top off so high, but nowadays when you want to buy a house people understandably take the money and run. East Mids area is considerably cheaper on the whole than Bristol, is it not? Same story for the guy who left for Leeds I believe.
With regards to moving house, in NATS we are very fortunate with the housing relocation scheme. What would you offer me by way of remuneration if I was to return to my home town?!?!?!
To be honest, apart from the fact that I would want to work at a prosperous airport for job security, I don't really give a stuff about pax numbers/tonnes flown in or out and movement numbers if I was selecting an alternative location.
I for one don't get up at 0530 for any other reason than the dosh. Sad but true!! If you can exceed what I have let's talk!!!
It is quite smple. As said, there is no serious guarentee of a job for ever. However, there is far more job security within NATS.
Also - whilst we bitch and moan about pay, it is not THAT bad within NATS compared to externally.
At least one who left NATS from LHR Twr (18months ago) went to EGNX beacuse they offered him an extra £20k or so IMMEDIATELY!! (He was on the bottom of the scale) OK - it might not top off so high, but nowadays when you want to buy a house people understandably take the money and run. East Mids area is considerably cheaper on the whole than Bristol, is it not? Same story for the guy who left for Leeds I believe.
With regards to moving house, in NATS we are very fortunate with the housing relocation scheme. What would you offer me by way of remuneration if I was to return to my home town?!?!?!
To be honest, apart from the fact that I would want to work at a prosperous airport for job security, I don't really give a stuff about pax numbers/tonnes flown in or out and movement numbers if I was selecting an alternative location.
I for one don't get up at 0530 for any other reason than the dosh. Sad but true!! If you can exceed what I have let's talk!!!
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ATCOJ
If you are who I think you are we grew up in the same town, although we didn't know each other then. I applied for a job at GD a few years ago but didn't get it. I would still consider working there, however I'm working overseas at the mo. The guy who did get the job at the time, though, I heard left very soon after starting and although I haven't directly asked him why, I did hear something to do with internal politics, which made me wonder.
That said, I'm sure no-one would write it off without looking more deeply, & I've only not re-applied since because of family circumstances.
I agree with some of the other posts - despite the management wrangles, NATS does provide a nice warm feeling in the security dept. The pay ladder raise every year plus whatever else, also promotion etc.
There y'go!
If you are who I think you are we grew up in the same town, although we didn't know each other then. I applied for a job at GD a few years ago but didn't get it. I would still consider working there, however I'm working overseas at the mo. The guy who did get the job at the time, though, I heard left very soon after starting and although I haven't directly asked him why, I did hear something to do with internal politics, which made me wonder.
That said, I'm sure no-one would write it off without looking more deeply, & I've only not re-applied since because of family circumstances.
I agree with some of the other posts - despite the management wrangles, NATS does provide a nice warm feeling in the security dept. The pay ladder raise every year plus whatever else, also promotion etc.
There y'go!
The successful applicant from the july 03 interviews subsequently decided to go to Canada, but that aside, was offered an extremely good re-location package, probably on a par with NATS! Although Bristol itself is expensive, if you're willing to drive half an hour to work you can get a lot of house for your money.
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bright-ling
I would be very suprised if the ATCO in question (who is on my watch) gained £20k from us just for coming, the situation is normally open to some negotiation on spinal points-but my colleague was lacking radar experience (mind you he has taught me a few things about going for gaps in tower!)
I would be very suprised if the ATCO in question (who is on my watch) gained £20k from us just for coming, the situation is normally open to some negotiation on spinal points-but my colleague was lacking radar experience (mind you he has taught me a few things about going for gaps in tower!)
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ATCOJ30
I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR STONG DESIRE FOR NATS ATCOs. FEW WOULD HAVE EXPERIENCE OF RAS/RIS IN A SIMILAR ENVIRONMENT, ELECTING INSTEAD TO FOCUS ON THEIR 'PRIMARY TASK'.
THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF BRISTOL GETTTING A REPUTATION, THAT MAY BE WELL DESERVED OR YOU MAY HAVE FALLEN FOUL OF THE RUMOUR NETWORK.
YOU HAVE STATED A NEED FOR THOSE WITH RELEVANT EXPERIENCE, BUT THE ADC POST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO APPARENTLY WENT TO AN APPLICANT WITHOUT CLASS A OR D EXPERIENCE DEPSITE SOME APPLICATIONS FROM INDIVIDUALS WITH CAS EXP.
OVER RECENT YEARS A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY ENCOURAGED TO APPLY ONLY TO BE REJECTED WITHOUT ANY FEEDBACK.
YOUR HR DEPARTMENT ARE ABBRASIVE TO APPLICANTS SEEKING INFORMATION DURING THE DRAWN-OUT APPLICATION PROCESS, UP TO 5+ MONTHS.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VERY ABLE ATCOs AT NEARBY AIRFIELDS THAT WOULD CONSIDER A POSITION AT BRISTOL A GOOD CAREER MOVE AND WOULD NO DOUBT REPAY THE OPPORTUNITY WITH LONG TERM LOYALITY. OKAY, SOME ARE EX-NATS FOR ONE REASON OR OTHER BUT THAT'S NOT UNCOMMON OR A BAD THING. (HOW MANY OF YOUR CURRENT ATCOs WERE ONCE A NATS SUCCESS STORY??!!) AND THEY'D COME WITH THE BENEFIT OF LOCAL KNOWLEDGE, INC THE CHANGE OF PROCEDURES WEST OF MALBY.
iF YOU GET ENOUGH NATS ATCOs WILL YOU BE EDGING OUT YOUR CURRENT WORKFORCE? OF COURSE NOT, THEY'VE PROVED THEMSELVES. GIVE SOME OTHERS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY.
I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR STONG DESIRE FOR NATS ATCOs. FEW WOULD HAVE EXPERIENCE OF RAS/RIS IN A SIMILAR ENVIRONMENT, ELECTING INSTEAD TO FOCUS ON THEIR 'PRIMARY TASK'.
THERE IS AN ELEMENT OF BRISTOL GETTTING A REPUTATION, THAT MAY BE WELL DESERVED OR YOU MAY HAVE FALLEN FOUL OF THE RUMOUR NETWORK.
YOU HAVE STATED A NEED FOR THOSE WITH RELEVANT EXPERIENCE, BUT THE ADC POST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO APPARENTLY WENT TO AN APPLICANT WITHOUT CLASS A OR D EXPERIENCE DEPSITE SOME APPLICATIONS FROM INDIVIDUALS WITH CAS EXP.
OVER RECENT YEARS A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN ACTIVELY ENCOURAGED TO APPLY ONLY TO BE REJECTED WITHOUT ANY FEEDBACK.
YOUR HR DEPARTMENT ARE ABBRASIVE TO APPLICANTS SEEKING INFORMATION DURING THE DRAWN-OUT APPLICATION PROCESS, UP TO 5+ MONTHS.
THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VERY ABLE ATCOs AT NEARBY AIRFIELDS THAT WOULD CONSIDER A POSITION AT BRISTOL A GOOD CAREER MOVE AND WOULD NO DOUBT REPAY THE OPPORTUNITY WITH LONG TERM LOYALITY. OKAY, SOME ARE EX-NATS FOR ONE REASON OR OTHER BUT THAT'S NOT UNCOMMON OR A BAD THING. (HOW MANY OF YOUR CURRENT ATCOs WERE ONCE A NATS SUCCESS STORY??!!) AND THEY'D COME WITH THE BENEFIT OF LOCAL KNOWLEDGE, INC THE CHANGE OF PROCEDURES WEST OF MALBY.
iF YOU GET ENOUGH NATS ATCOs WILL YOU BE EDGING OUT YOUR CURRENT WORKFORCE? OF COURSE NOT, THEY'VE PROVED THEMSELVES. GIVE SOME OTHERS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY.
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STOP SHOUTING!!!!!
Anyway, I don't think that he was exclusively after NATS types, just asking what it would need to lure one out!
As for NATS ATCO's not doing RAS/RIS, here are "some" units that do, often in complex airspace and frequently...
Cardiff
Farnborough
Luton
Essex Radar
Thames Radar
Gatwick Radar(occasionally)
Birmingham
Edinburgh
Aberdeen
Glasgow
(apologies if I have missed any!!)
B-L
Anyway, I don't think that he was exclusively after NATS types, just asking what it would need to lure one out!
As for NATS ATCO's not doing RAS/RIS, here are "some" units that do, often in complex airspace and frequently...
Cardiff
Farnborough
Luton
Essex Radar
Thames Radar
Gatwick Radar(occasionally)
Birmingham
Edinburgh
Aberdeen
Glasgow
(apologies if I have missed any!!)
B-L
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I really don't see why Bristol have such a problem recruiting- I would love to work there, I dont want to leave the area, Im not near retirement age, its a fantastic working environment, but they don't appear interested as I only have ADC/APC (no Radar). I have also tried offering self-sponsorship - where am I going wrong?
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Have I upset some of you? Oh well, c'est la vie. Can't please everyone! But as I have said, I speak from my own experience of working for NATS. It was a bit of a kick in the teeth to see some who got 3rd and 4th chances in NATS while I was kicked out after only getting a half chance.
Incidentally, 3 months before my contract was "terminated", my 6 month old niece passed away after a short illness and the week I was leaving, my terminally ill mother also passed away. I was told that another position would be sought for me at an airfield in the NATS group, only to be kicked while I was down. Had it not been for my friends, I may have lost it totally. But no, one of those friends put in a word for me at a non state unit and things slowly got better. That in a nutshell is why I have no particular love of NATS.
As for the world outside the asylum, I have enjoyed myself immensely in the last 8 years. My first two units were great fun and enjoyable places to work, but my current unit is not only an enjoyable place to work, but also busy enough to hold my attention for many years to come. Oh, and I didn't have to pay a penny towards the move either, bargain.
Life's too short to worry about your mortgage and house prices.
Come and live in sunny Somerset, it's great (as far as living in England can be!)
BTW, special vfr - who said I wasn't happy with my lot? It certainly wasn't me.
PS I also do recommendations.........for a fee!
Incidentally, 3 months before my contract was "terminated", my 6 month old niece passed away after a short illness and the week I was leaving, my terminally ill mother also passed away. I was told that another position would be sought for me at an airfield in the NATS group, only to be kicked while I was down. Had it not been for my friends, I may have lost it totally. But no, one of those friends put in a word for me at a non state unit and things slowly got better. That in a nutshell is why I have no particular love of NATS.
As for the world outside the asylum, I have enjoyed myself immensely in the last 8 years. My first two units were great fun and enjoyable places to work, but my current unit is not only an enjoyable place to work, but also busy enough to hold my attention for many years to come. Oh, and I didn't have to pay a penny towards the move either, bargain.
Life's too short to worry about your mortgage and house prices. Come and live in sunny Somerset, it's great (as far as living in England can be!)
BTW, special vfr - who said I wasn't happy with my lot? It certainly wasn't me.
PS I also do recommendations.........for a fee!
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bright-ling
I assume this is your usual fishing for a reaction, but I can assure you I took a pay cut to leave Heathrow (only equivalent to London weighting, but a cut non the less), had I stayed I would be on far more now than I can ever hope to earn up here. But as many people have pointed out thats not the point. I've just bought a house for 70K ,15 mins from the airport, I can eat breakfast whilst doing GMC, I now have a radar ticket and a met certificate (and am on an OJTI course in the new year)
And i can't vouch for other non-NATS employers but I feel my job here is far more secure than any more aerodrome job in NATS(and I certainly feel far more valued here as a member of staff than I ever did working for NATS).
And I can assure Gonzo that almost professional has no shortage of "when I was at Luton...." stories!!!
I assume this is your usual fishing for a reaction, but I can assure you I took a pay cut to leave Heathrow (only equivalent to London weighting, but a cut non the less), had I stayed I would be on far more now than I can ever hope to earn up here. But as many people have pointed out thats not the point. I've just bought a house for 70K ,15 mins from the airport, I can eat breakfast whilst doing GMC, I now have a radar ticket and a met certificate (and am on an OJTI course in the new year)
And i can't vouch for other non-NATS employers but I feel my job here is far more secure than any more aerodrome job in NATS(and I certainly feel far more valued here as a member of staff than I ever did working for NATS).
And I can assure Gonzo that almost professional has no shortage of "when I was at Luton...." stories!!!