NATS Pay/WP
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I managed to get hold of a copy of the Unit grading criteria today and for what is supposed to be a transparent structure, it's blooming complicated.....
Not being a mathematician (although I do have an A Level in pure Mathematics and Statistics) I could not get these figures to add up at all...
There are so many holes in the formula for calculating the Airport grades that the French and Dutch could make Cheese out of it...
It would seem that at airfields in Scotland, there is no weighting attached to the formula for Approach Control Complexity (yet for BB and CC there is??). No weighting at all added for any airports for mix of Prop & Jet traffic.
Airport complexity is a joke, apparently, if you have an SMR your job is more complex than if you don't have an SMR-----Try telling that to PF in LVP's.... Apparantly, the more equipment you have to make your job EASIER, the MORE DIFFICULT THE GRADING, since all the equipment is HARD TO USE
Not being a mathematician (although I do have an A Level in pure Mathematics and Statistics) I could not get these figures to add up at all...
There are so many holes in the formula for calculating the Airport grades that the French and Dutch could make Cheese out of it...
It would seem that at airfields in Scotland, there is no weighting attached to the formula for Approach Control Complexity (yet for BB and CC there is??). No weighting at all added for any airports for mix of Prop & Jet traffic.
Airport complexity is a joke, apparently, if you have an SMR your job is more complex than if you don't have an SMR-----Try telling that to PF in LVP's.... Apparantly, the more equipment you have to make your job EASIER, the MORE DIFFICULT THE GRADING, since all the equipment is HARD TO USE
Join Date: Jan 2004
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166kts
Thats the most arrogant and uninformed response to what the rest of your fellow colleagues within NATS have to put up with .I suggest you come out of your Temple and join the real world within which we all have to work in
The kitchen is just as hot away from your Temple
Thats the most arrogant and uninformed response to what the rest of your fellow colleagues within NATS have to put up with .I suggest you come out of your Temple and join the real world within which we all have to work in
The kitchen is just as hot away from your Temple
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Speaking as a member of my union, I'm very glad that my union has seen fit to attempt to grade different units and introduce differential pay. (I know the scale is slightly different as it stands at different units etc. but not a big difference) If enough of my union agree with me then those members of my union who don't agree are going to be outvoted. That is democracy for you, it may let everyone have a say, but can still ignore them if they're not in the majority.
Speaking for my own personal interests and being at a grade 5 (to be?) unit, I think it's a fantastic offer and will, for the first time in 12 years be voting for acceptance.
I also fully understand that any formula which resulted in someone else being on a higher scale than me would make me want to pick holes in it to prove I was just as, if not more deserving than they were. I have to say though, I really do think that TC/NERC are more complex/busy/pricey/whatever than Manch and Scottish.
Yes, I know everyone has their busy times, complicated bits, staff shortfalls, extra tasks and the like but that's precicely the point, EVERYONE has them so trying to produce a banding based on simply those things is just going to result in one very big band.
If you can seriosly say to me that 8 point whatever at the lower end over 2 years is not an OK payrise, then good luck to us all, and let's chuck it (in favour of what though?), otherwise, simply put in your request for a posting and come on down.
Speaking for my own personal interests and being at a grade 5 (to be?) unit, I think it's a fantastic offer and will, for the first time in 12 years be voting for acceptance.
I also fully understand that any formula which resulted in someone else being on a higher scale than me would make me want to pick holes in it to prove I was just as, if not more deserving than they were. I have to say though, I really do think that TC/NERC are more complex/busy/pricey/whatever than Manch and Scottish.
Yes, I know everyone has their busy times, complicated bits, staff shortfalls, extra tasks and the like but that's precicely the point, EVERYONE has them so trying to produce a banding based on simply those things is just going to result in one very big band.
If you can seriosly say to me that 8 point whatever at the lower end over 2 years is not an OK payrise, then good luck to us all, and let's chuck it (in favour of what though?), otherwise, simply put in your request for a posting and come on down.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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The point is not getting through is it.
It is so easy to say when your pay will be if this vote goes through considerably larger than mine to say what are you complaining about.
Band 5 people stop saying to us come down here, stop saying you don't work as hard as us, stop saying we shouldn't complain.
The regrading is a farce from start to finish. There is no doubt we would all like the massive pay rise proposed for band 5 units, even if my unit was to take on the whole of the approach for our neighbouring unit we still wouldn't rise from a band 2 unit because of the way the formula has been worked.
I am an APC controller not an area Controller, i have a life where I live I cannot just up sticks and go where i want as many of my colleagues can't either.
The bleatings from the proposed new Band 5 units makes me think of Marie Antoinette " let them eat cake"
It is so easy to say when your pay will be if this vote goes through considerably larger than mine to say what are you complaining about.
Band 5 people stop saying to us come down here, stop saying you don't work as hard as us, stop saying we shouldn't complain.
The regrading is a farce from start to finish. There is no doubt we would all like the massive pay rise proposed for band 5 units, even if my unit was to take on the whole of the approach for our neighbouring unit we still wouldn't rise from a band 2 unit because of the way the formula has been worked.
I am an APC controller not an area Controller, i have a life where I live I cannot just up sticks and go where i want as many of my colleagues can't either.
The bleatings from the proposed new Band 5 units makes me think of Marie Antoinette " let them eat cake"
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Not Long Now, it's not just YOUR union, it is OUR union, and if OUR union sees fit to recommend an offer which by their own admission is FLAWED then we as members of OUR union have a duty to question it and ask WHY??? .
This issue is not about who deserves more money than who, it is about applying a set of FAIR criteria when grading each of the units to ensure that all the members of OUR union are recognised for what they do and compensated accordingly.
We at the regional airports do not take issue with the fact that the current "Band 5" units deserve to be graded as such, we take issue with the system used to grade the rest of us that does not take into account a large amount of the work that we do.
Your traffic figures are there for all to see, your mix of Jets and Props is accounted for, your equipment is accounted for......
... Ours is not, at my unit (PF) the approach control is not even included in the weighting, the complexities of working within Classes E & G airspace does not appear to have been taken into account, the complex cross runway environment has not been taken into account, the mix of jet and prop traffic has not been taken into account, the lack of suitable equipment to work in LVP's has not been taken into account....
I could go on
OUR union should seek to achieve a FAIR deal for all of OUR unions members, whether they work on the South Coast or the NE of Scotland.
This issue is not about who deserves more money than who, it is about applying a set of FAIR criteria when grading each of the units to ensure that all the members of OUR union are recognised for what they do and compensated accordingly.
We at the regional airports do not take issue with the fact that the current "Band 5" units deserve to be graded as such, we take issue with the system used to grade the rest of us that does not take into account a large amount of the work that we do.
Your traffic figures are there for all to see, your mix of Jets and Props is accounted for, your equipment is accounted for......
... Ours is not, at my unit (PF) the approach control is not even included in the weighting, the complexities of working within Classes E & G airspace does not appear to have been taken into account, the complex cross runway environment has not been taken into account, the mix of jet and prop traffic has not been taken into account, the lack of suitable equipment to work in LVP's has not been taken into account....
I could go on
OUR union should seek to achieve a FAIR deal for all of OUR unions members, whether they work on the South Coast or the NE of Scotland.
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After recently attending a Union briefing on the pay deal, I was comforted by Prospect admitting that the Airports model needed looking at again and that there are problems with it.
I was assured that on the 11th Feb they would be reassessing the model and the gradings.
Hooray I hear you shout, but wait! The proposed date of the ballot........10TH FEB!!!!!!!
If the vote is "yes", even after the reassessing of the airports model, if any Units need moving (band wise), they will not be moved for 3 YEARS!!
How can they ask us to vote on a pay grading system based on a model that Prospect admit is flawed????
I was assured that on the 11th Feb they would be reassessing the model and the gradings.
Hooray I hear you shout, but wait! The proposed date of the ballot........10TH FEB!!!!!!!If the vote is "yes", even after the reassessing of the airports model, if any Units need moving (band wise), they will not be moved for 3 YEARS!!
How can they ask us to vote on a pay grading system based on a model that Prospect admit is flawed????
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Harry,
I understand that the ballot is now to be postponed until after the meeting on the 11th Feb.
Also, I'm not sure that prospect are actually admitting that the model is flawed. Of course if you change the order in which a calculation is done you may indeed end up with a different result. However, that does not necessarily mean that the formula was wrong in the first place.
As I see it, if you had given everybody a pen and paper and asked them to put all the NATS units in the country into 5 separate bands, you would have more or less ended up with what has been proposed now. So it can't be that wrong.
S.
I understand that the ballot is now to be postponed until after the meeting on the 11th Feb.
Also, I'm not sure that prospect are actually admitting that the model is flawed. Of course if you change the order in which a calculation is done you may indeed end up with a different result. However, that does not necessarily mean that the formula was wrong in the first place.
As I see it, if you had given everybody a pen and paper and asked them to put all the NATS units in the country into 5 separate bands, you would have more or less ended up with what has been proposed now. So it can't be that wrong.
S.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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The model is flawed and is not weighted correctly in alot of areas. The model didnt bring the correct scores for a unit for an individual ATCO. I dont think the order is correct and for the future the scoring is too spread out. Once it has been looked at, even though some individuals involved are far too bias to their own units, it may be closer to real life.
But wait
I really do think that TC/NERC are more complex/busy/pricey/whatever than Manch and Scottish.
well if not long now says so, lets stop everything and do what he says NOT.
That is the attitude that is about to take this union apart. What u mean pricey? LACC housing is now becoming the cheapest area to live! Complexed how would you know. have you done a study, do you know what complexed is? Busy in relation to what? it feels busy or you keeping telling yourself it is busy Whatever? your talking out your ..................
But wait
I really do think that TC/NERC are more complex/busy/pricey/whatever than Manch and Scottish.
well if not long now says so, lets stop everything and do what he says NOT.
That is the attitude that is about to take this union apart. What u mean pricey? LACC housing is now becoming the cheapest area to live! Complexed how would you know. have you done a study, do you know what complexed is? Busy in relation to what? it feels busy or you keeping telling yourself it is busy Whatever? your talking out your ..................
Last edited by dvdr; 6th Feb 2004 at 22:13.
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dvdr wrote:
Busy in relation to each other perhaps?
2003 movements....
LACC 1,717,298
LTCC 1,225,872
MACC 548,396
ScACC 543,454
OACC 339,524
Big John.
Busy in relation to what? it feels busy or you keeping telling yourself it is busy
2003 movements....
LACC 1,717,298
LTCC 1,225,872
MACC 548,396
ScACC 543,454
OACC 339,524
Big John.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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John,
All those numbers are irrelevant to how busy you are, they just show which units move the most traffic.
Break it down to movements per controller and you'll find that things change somewhat as to how BUSY you actually are..
Unfortunately I don't have the OR numbers to hand otherwise I would break it down for all to see.
All those numbers are irrelevant to how busy you are, they just show which units move the most traffic.
Break it down to movements per controller and you'll find that things change somewhat as to how BUSY you actually are..
Unfortunately I don't have the OR numbers to hand otherwise I would break it down for all to see.
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Don't you worry all you approach guys, with the coming of the european one sky, there'll be less area guys to pay ridiculous amounts to and come free flight probably none at all
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So guys whats the problem? You get more pay if you fly a 747/777 than if you fly a ATR72 so why shouldn't the chaps at LTCC/LACC get more than the Scottish airports. Take a step back and look at reality.
Last edited by Captain Windsock; 7th Feb 2004 at 22:02.
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I am not against LTCC/LACC getting more money ( they get that already don't they 
). I just want the model to be fair, and if it is true that parameters like Oceanic interface and cross
runways were ommitted because there are not any south of Watford then I think I have every reason to be p sed of.
I also beleive there is new MATS pt 2 phraseology coming out which will be " you are a grade 5 London you sort it out
"
AyrTC
). I just want the model to be fair, and if it is true that parameters like Oceanic interface and cross runways were ommitted because there are not any south of Watford then I think I have every reason to be p
sed of.I also beleive there is new MATS pt 2 phraseology coming out which will be " you are a grade 5 London you sort it out
"AyrTC
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I wish some of you people would do some research before making replies. You need to look into what is actually happening rather what you think is happening. Some people down south are starting to sound like Americans( dont know very much).
Watchdog Delta Hotel
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dvdr
the figures i posted are th ones our union are using when it comes to selling this deal
so not my fault if they are out of date(but my money helps to pay for old figures)
the figures i posted are th ones our union are using when it comes to selling this deal
so not my fault if they are out of date(but my money helps to pay for old figures)