NATS Pay/WP
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Greebson if you want a security pass ? It can be arranged in 2 minutes - no nause - no excuse.
IF the reps are getting time off to attend the briefings they will be doing it in their normal work schedule. THEY will be doing just what is complained about i.e. travelling and attending meetings straight from or back to duty at units around the UK. If they are getting any TOIL you can bet you bo**ocks it won't nearly reflect the time they are actually working or away from home.
If you are upset or even if you are pleased by the deal then go to a meeting. Let the reps know you are at least interested and appreciate they are doing their best even if you don't like the outcome. I would bet that you could have your chance soon. If the deal is rejected then the negotiatiors and the BEC who have recommended it will be obliged to stand down and allow another BEC to be elected and take the deal back for negotiation.
IF the reps are getting time off to attend the briefings they will be doing it in their normal work schedule. THEY will be doing just what is complained about i.e. travelling and attending meetings straight from or back to duty at units around the UK. If they are getting any TOIL you can bet you bo**ocks it won't nearly reflect the time they are actually working or away from home.
If you are upset or even if you are pleased by the deal then go to a meeting. Let the reps know you are at least interested and appreciate they are doing their best even if you don't like the outcome. I would bet that you could have your chance soon. If the deal is rejected then the negotiatiors and the BEC who have recommended it will be obliged to stand down and allow another BEC to be elected and take the deal back for negotiation.
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I can't seem to remember the last time the BEC did a roadshow to promote a paydeal. The last time I saw any of them was pre PPP.
Why do they feel the need to go round all the units? Is it perhaps because they need to try and justify the complete balls up they've made of the negotiations?
This deal is probably going to go through purely because the band 5 units have the numbers needed to vote it through.
If it doesn't go through and the BEC negotiating team have to stand down then so be it, they probably realise that this is in no way a decent across the board deal for ATCO members.
I think that in order for this deal not to got through then all the Band 1, 2 and 3 units would have to vote NO, along with MACC, the rumpours I have heard are that MACC are not happy but we'll have to wait and see.
As for travelling to another unit for a briefing, as Greebson said, big round trip for me to ScACC, why should I have to go there when my own unit SHOULD have a briefing at a SUITABLE hour of day.
But then again, PF is just a regional airport and a large part of our workload doesn't count towards anything (at least until we start throwing it at the centres......which we WILL)
Why do they feel the need to go round all the units? Is it perhaps because they need to try and justify the complete balls up they've made of the negotiations?
This deal is probably going to go through purely because the band 5 units have the numbers needed to vote it through.
If it doesn't go through and the BEC negotiating team have to stand down then so be it, they probably realise that this is in no way a decent across the board deal for ATCO members.
I think that in order for this deal not to got through then all the Band 1, 2 and 3 units would have to vote NO, along with MACC, the rumpours I have heard are that MACC are not happy but we'll have to wait and see.
As for travelling to another unit for a briefing, as Greebson said, big round trip for me to ScACC, why should I have to go there when my own unit SHOULD have a briefing at a SUITABLE hour of day.
But then again, PF is just a regional airport and a large part of our workload doesn't count towards anything (at least until we start throwing it at the centres......which we WILL)
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Can I play with madness..
Slight understatement there...Manchester are bloody furious about it..Must be looking at minimum of 95% who will vote NO here. The only yes votes will be from the chairman of the union who negotiated it in and a couple of other resident lunatics!
I agree that it will probably get carried if all those at the band 5 "premier units"
vote yes. We have to hope that most of them think they don't need to bother "as it'll go through anyway" and the rest of us mere humble bands 1-4 have some sort of 3 line whip going to get as many as possible to vote no. That might just be enough to stop this madness .....
Slight understatement there...Manchester are bloody furious about it..Must be looking at minimum of 95% who will vote NO here. The only yes votes will be from the chairman of the union who negotiated it in and a couple of other resident lunatics!
I agree that it will probably get carried if all those at the band 5 "premier units"
vote yes. We have to hope that most of them think they don't need to bother "as it'll go through anyway" and the rest of us mere humble bands 1-4 have some sort of 3 line whip going to get as many as possible to vote no. That might just be enough to stop this madness .....
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Not wishing to point out the obvious, but this is the first pay offer I can remember where anyone at all has sounded even vaguely in favour. Usually it's 100% "rubbish, never get accepted, no where near good enough..".
And yet all the previous offers somehow seem to be accepted by the apparently overwhelming 'silent' majority.
Any real chance of this offer being rejected?
I can't see it happening.
Very interesting to be proved wrong though...
And yet all the previous offers somehow seem to be accepted by the apparently overwhelming 'silent' majority.
Any real chance of this offer being rejected?
I can't see it happening.
Very interesting to be proved wrong though...
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With reference to certain 'unquantifiable movements' at the likes of PF, if, as has been stated, we refuse to work such traffic until it is in CAS, will PROSPECT back us in so doing - lets face it, it was a joint MANAGEMENT/union assessment. This will have a great effect on the way we work with ScATCC, increasing their workload some what. Findo, knowing you and your background, how do you think'our'union stands in this respect? I think a big can of worms has been opened!
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23C an interesting question to ask at the roadshow.
In my book working traffic on an advisory route requires knowledge and application of both procedural control and radar skills and knowledge. Off the ADR requires radar skills and knowledge to provide RAS / RIS. There are skills there which are applied only outside CAS where you don't have knowledge never mind control of all the traffic.
All of this lot requires ATC licence qualification and as it is applied to all types of traffic from light a/c to Trans Atlantic widebodies I would have thought this was a skill level which would be rewarded. This seems to make a very favourable comparison with the likes of Stansted where only one skillset is required.
In my book working traffic on an advisory route requires knowledge and application of both procedural control and radar skills and knowledge. Off the ADR requires radar skills and knowledge to provide RAS / RIS. There are skills there which are applied only outside CAS where you don't have knowledge never mind control of all the traffic.
All of this lot requires ATC licence qualification and as it is applied to all types of traffic from light a/c to Trans Atlantic widebodies I would have thought this was a skill level which would be rewarded. This seems to make a very favourable comparison with the likes of Stansted where only one skillset is required.
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Greebson,
You really are a supercillious git sometimes!!
I haven't had my briefing yet but I can assure you that they are planned to be FOLLOWING a morning duty-and not a morning that starts at 0700 but one that starts at 0630-one of the major reasons that this company didn't go down the tubes last summer and one of the reasons that there is as much money to distribute amongst ALL ATCOs as there is. Don't know about the TOIL issue for the reps but if they are doing them in their own time then I bloody well hope that they do get the time credited back-not that they are able to take it at LACC-but I guess that's the same at your unit as well isn't it-or maybe not!!
If you have a problem with people getting the time back then fine but I believe they deserve it.
As I said before look at what YOU are having to do differently to get the cash-anything at all??????-probably not!!
If you want the big bucks and the ability to do the AAVAs-come on down. And don't give all the bollocks about not being able to get out-those that have come from other units and are serious about coming south are usually released within a matter of a few months.
caniplay-surely you are aware that his is more than just a paydeal-if not than where have you been for the last 15 months????????? If it wasn't a fair deal across the board then why would they be recommending it? Which part of the deal don't you like-that it isn't enough or that somone else is having to do some WP changes and just for once you don't get share of the accompanied savings. As i said I didn't hear too many moans from the regionals when thay got a bonus for Swanwick opening-cant wait to get mine when MACC closes-ooops sorry-NPC opens.
You really are a supercillious git sometimes!!
I haven't had my briefing yet but I can assure you that they are planned to be FOLLOWING a morning duty-and not a morning that starts at 0700 but one that starts at 0630-one of the major reasons that this company didn't go down the tubes last summer and one of the reasons that there is as much money to distribute amongst ALL ATCOs as there is. Don't know about the TOIL issue for the reps but if they are doing them in their own time then I bloody well hope that they do get the time credited back-not that they are able to take it at LACC-but I guess that's the same at your unit as well isn't it-or maybe not!!
If you have a problem with people getting the time back then fine but I believe they deserve it.
As I said before look at what YOU are having to do differently to get the cash-anything at all??????-probably not!!
If you want the big bucks and the ability to do the AAVAs-come on down. And don't give all the bollocks about not being able to get out-those that have come from other units and are serious about coming south are usually released within a matter of a few months.
caniplay-surely you are aware that his is more than just a paydeal-if not than where have you been for the last 15 months????????? If it wasn't a fair deal across the board then why would they be recommending it? Which part of the deal don't you like-that it isn't enough or that somone else is having to do some WP changes and just for once you don't get share of the accompanied savings. As i said I didn't hear too many moans from the regionals when thay got a bonus for Swanwick opening-cant wait to get mine when MACC closes-ooops sorry-NPC opens.
Last edited by 250 kts; 11th Feb 2004 at 04:41.
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250,
get your head out of your money grabbing ar$e and look at the big picture here, you obviously haven't been with NATS that long, otherwise you would realise that the airports have been making WP concessions for the last 10 years or more and have had the square root of f
k all in return.
I'm annoyed at the fact that the PF meeting is at 7pm, but so be it, I'll be there and I'll get my two penneth worth in and make my opinions known on this matter.
The last time 250 went anywhere near an airport was on aerodrome OJT, staffing issues are a big concern, read my previous posts, we would love to get out and go and move the "big boy" traffic but we CANNOT.....
AAVA's aren't going to help airports, the only time an airport ATCO can do O/T is when on leave, this new deal precludes that because you guys got fed up with someone earning more than you by taking leave at just the right time!!! The only reason we did the overtime at standard rate in the past certainly wasn't for the money it was because we care about our customers and we're not whingeing radicals out for every penny we can get or want to complain at every opportunity because we had a few more aeroplanes to deal with than we first thought.
We do the best job we can within the parameters that are laid down.. We don't file overload reports because we just get on with it and deal with the traffic.. Our job satisfaction is driving out of the airport, looking at all the tin on the tarmac and knowing that we helped get them where they are. I don't care about your 6:30 starts, I'm at work for a 7am start at 6:25, why? because I don't do late and I then have time to brief myself properly before taking over, what time do you get there for your 6:30 start???
How many times a day do you get shafted by some low hours PPL in Class E airspace not talking to you with no mode C getting in the way of traffic you're vectoring inbound at 3000ft? How many times do you take avoiding actin with IFR traffic against God knows who in class G airspace under a RAS.
Airways are wonderful places, beautiful controlled airspace, all you do is get them level separated or 5miles and bingo, keep em coming 10, 20 ,30, I could do that and I would love to, jyst that I CAN'T BECAUSE I CAN'T GET OUT.
Don't you dare tell me that you've got it hard and that we are riding on your backs, getting money for the opening of Swanwick, HOW MUCH DID YOU GET OUT OF IT? They bought back your TOIL, your leave and God knows what else.... I've had to carry over 8 days leave for the last 3 years, I lost 7 days 2 years ago because I couldn't take them , I've got 26 DIL to take but can't take them bacause there aren't enough staff to cover....
You want to know what it's like to work hard, and get no recognition for your efforts???
Come to PF, PH, BB, CC, PD, FF, LF
get your head out of your money grabbing ar$e and look at the big picture here, you obviously haven't been with NATS that long, otherwise you would realise that the airports have been making WP concessions for the last 10 years or more and have had the square root of f
k all in return.I'm annoyed at the fact that the PF meeting is at 7pm, but so be it, I'll be there and I'll get my two penneth worth in and make my opinions known on this matter.
The last time 250 went anywhere near an airport was on aerodrome OJT, staffing issues are a big concern, read my previous posts, we would love to get out and go and move the "big boy" traffic but we CANNOT.....
AAVA's aren't going to help airports, the only time an airport ATCO can do O/T is when on leave, this new deal precludes that because you guys got fed up with someone earning more than you by taking leave at just the right time!!! The only reason we did the overtime at standard rate in the past certainly wasn't for the money it was because we care about our customers and we're not whingeing radicals out for every penny we can get or want to complain at every opportunity because we had a few more aeroplanes to deal with than we first thought.
We do the best job we can within the parameters that are laid down.. We don't file overload reports because we just get on with it and deal with the traffic.. Our job satisfaction is driving out of the airport, looking at all the tin on the tarmac and knowing that we helped get them where they are. I don't care about your 6:30 starts, I'm at work for a 7am start at 6:25, why? because I don't do late and I then have time to brief myself properly before taking over, what time do you get there for your 6:30 start???
How many times a day do you get shafted by some low hours PPL in Class E airspace not talking to you with no mode C getting in the way of traffic you're vectoring inbound at 3000ft? How many times do you take avoiding actin with IFR traffic against God knows who in class G airspace under a RAS.
Airways are wonderful places, beautiful controlled airspace, all you do is get them level separated or 5miles and bingo, keep em coming 10, 20 ,30, I could do that and I would love to, jyst that I CAN'T BECAUSE I CAN'T GET OUT.
Don't you dare tell me that you've got it hard and that we are riding on your backs, getting money for the opening of Swanwick, HOW MUCH DID YOU GET OUT OF IT? They bought back your TOIL, your leave and God knows what else.... I've had to carry over 8 days leave for the last 3 years, I lost 7 days 2 years ago because I couldn't take them , I've got 26 DIL to take but can't take them bacause there aren't enough staff to cover....
You want to know what it's like to work hard, and get no recognition for your efforts???
Come to PF, PH, BB, CC, PD, FF, LF
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Shall I?
Sorry, it's just too tempting!
Want to know what it's like to work hard, and get no recognition for your efforts???
Come to LL
Sorry, it's just too tempting!
You want to know what it's like to work hard, and get no recognition for your efforts???
Come to PF, PH, BB, CC, PD, FF, LF
Come to LL
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Gonzo,
You are getting recognition for your efforts, hence the band 5 grading, and I don't begrude you it for 1 minute, you deserve it..
What gets my back up is being undervalued by both NATS and now PROSPECT (who are supposed to have my best interests at heart)
And idiots like 250 who are just argumentative D1ckh34d5, and yes I've risen to the bait but it's about time I got this off my chest because when I tell the union at the 7pm meeting it's not going to make any difference at all
You are getting recognition for your efforts, hence the band 5 grading, and I don't begrude you it for 1 minute, you deserve it..
What gets my back up is being undervalued by both NATS and now PROSPECT (who are supposed to have my best interests at heart)
And idiots like 250 who are just argumentative D1ckh34d5, and yes I've risen to the bait but it's about time I got this off my chest because when I tell the union at the 7pm meeting it's not going to make any difference at all
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OK cani***-I'll take each point in turn as I did with Greebson but as usual I guess a whole load more will be introduced as each point is shot down.
So you can make the meeting with a bit of effort-good-the reps are going to ALOT of effort and hopefully accrueing time in lieu as well.
Where is it you want to move to?-if a block is being put on your move then I suggest you get your rep involved-at what stage is the process at present-take it to a grievance if necessary.
Why should someone take a valuable cycle's leave in August that someone else may have wanted only to turn up at work for an enhanced amount-fair to the other person? SRATCO does allow you to do AAVA after spins-and in fact at anytime that you previously worked overtime. And the new one now forces nATS to pay you at AAVA rate for an operational duty-surely a good point for ALL the airports.
If you are overloaded then you are DUTY BOUND to file a 1261-suggest you start doing it. Others can only learn from the experience. Yeah I bet you do like looking at the tin on the tarmac-one of the reasons you arrive 35!! minutes early for a morning duty-you must really like it there!! I get in around 0615 for 0630-plenty of time to self brief and take over by around 0625-despite me still struggling with the EBS.
No I don't get too many low hours PPL but I do bget lots of DAL/UAL pilots who choose not to listen out
I agree the traffic types are different-as you will see when we get together to push for your transfer.
Yes they did buy back our TOIL but the centre could not have opened(and you wouldn't have got your bonus) without that happening. As for losing your leave-take it to your rep as management HAVE to give facility for you to take ALL of you leave allocation. If there isn't then the WP is too tight and you need to resolve it. As for your TOIL-this deal has a facility forcing them to allow you to take it within a certain time period or if coming to retirement allowing it to be carried forward-good for ALL the tightly-staffed regionals. It seems to me though that if you accrue TOIL at that rate and can't take it then you need to give up some of the activities that accrue it and spread the pain a bit more amongst your colleagues-or are you really saving it up in the hope of selling it??
I do wonder in all this what the communication with the unit reps has been like though. They have been aware of the basics of this for 9 months now and certainly at my unit people have been asking hard questions of the reps for quite a while.
Still not sure about this release issue though. I reckon LACC has lost about 15 people to other units in the last 2 years and we have the largest shortages. There has to be a major problem with the internal mobility procedures at the smaller units. find out what happened to your application to move-we all await with baited breath.
So you can make the meeting with a bit of effort-good-the reps are going to ALOT of effort and hopefully accrueing time in lieu as well.
Where is it you want to move to?-if a block is being put on your move then I suggest you get your rep involved-at what stage is the process at present-take it to a grievance if necessary.
Why should someone take a valuable cycle's leave in August that someone else may have wanted only to turn up at work for an enhanced amount-fair to the other person? SRATCO does allow you to do AAVA after spins-and in fact at anytime that you previously worked overtime. And the new one now forces nATS to pay you at AAVA rate for an operational duty-surely a good point for ALL the airports.
If you are overloaded then you are DUTY BOUND to file a 1261-suggest you start doing it. Others can only learn from the experience. Yeah I bet you do like looking at the tin on the tarmac-one of the reasons you arrive 35!! minutes early for a morning duty-you must really like it there!! I get in around 0615 for 0630-plenty of time to self brief and take over by around 0625-despite me still struggling with the EBS.
No I don't get too many low hours PPL but I do bget lots of DAL/UAL pilots who choose not to listen out
I agree the traffic types are different-as you will see when we get together to push for your transfer.Yes they did buy back our TOIL but the centre could not have opened(and you wouldn't have got your bonus) without that happening. As for losing your leave-take it to your rep as management HAVE to give facility for you to take ALL of you leave allocation. If there isn't then the WP is too tight and you need to resolve it. As for your TOIL-this deal has a facility forcing them to allow you to take it within a certain time period or if coming to retirement allowing it to be carried forward-good for ALL the tightly-staffed regionals. It seems to me though that if you accrue TOIL at that rate and can't take it then you need to give up some of the activities that accrue it and spread the pain a bit more amongst your colleagues-or are you really saving it up in the hope of selling it??
I do wonder in all this what the communication with the unit reps has been like though. They have been aware of the basics of this for 9 months now and certainly at my unit people have been asking hard questions of the reps for quite a while.
Still not sure about this release issue though. I reckon LACC has lost about 15 people to other units in the last 2 years and we have the largest shortages. There has to be a major problem with the internal mobility procedures at the smaller units. find out what happened to your application to move-we all await with baited breath.
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Pay Deal
No-one can claim to make an informed comment on the "deal" until they have attended and listened to a presentation; at which time a sense of understanding will prevail. I have some sympathy for the Reps.....you can't talk to people with pre-conceived ideas and fingers in their ears. Our meeting took two and a half hours so take sandwiches and allow plenty of time!
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This is an emotive issue.
However, anyone who cannot resist name calling and passing insults, REGARDLESS of whether they are addressing the other posters argument or not, is in danger of wasting their own time and typing skills.
The 2 seconds it takes to delete their posts in their entirety is a waste of my time too, but not so big a deal that it won't be done.
Think before hitting submit, especially if posting after a few sherries !!!
However, anyone who cannot resist name calling and passing insults, REGARDLESS of whether they are addressing the other posters argument or not, is in danger of wasting their own time and typing skills.
The 2 seconds it takes to delete their posts in their entirety is a waste of my time too, but not so big a deal that it won't be done.
Think before hitting submit, especially if posting after a few sherries !!!
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I have just been reading about Ryanair's woes, share prices dropped by a third this week, the EU looking into unfair practices and all this on top of a large order for 22 737-800's with an option of another 78. What will happen to our band 3 controllers at EGSS if in the worst case Ryanair business goes down the pan!
At least they will be able to build that new R/W without too many interruptions
At least they will be able to build that new R/W without too many interruptions
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Apologies to all for the word g*t.
Not sure where 40% comes from-more misinformation from Greebson. Looking forward to your reply to the answers i gave to your last points.
Caniplay-how are things going with that application to move?
Not sure where 40% comes from-more misinformation from Greebson. Looking forward to your reply to the answers i gave to your last points.
Caniplay-how are things going with that application to move?
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250, firstly I shall apologise for the remarks I made yesterday, I was somehwat annoyed and a little worse for wear.
The move isn't going anywhere and nor do I expect it to for at least another 2-10 years
As for the figures Greebson quoted, they are the projected pay differentials between top of the scale at Band 5 and top of the scale at Band 3 units!!
The move isn't going anywhere and nor do I expect it to for at least another 2-10 years
As for the figures Greebson quoted, they are the projected pay differentials between top of the scale at Band 5 and top of the scale at Band 3 units!!
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Not Long Now
Quote:
Not wishing to point out the obvious, but this is the first pay offer I can remember where anyone at all has sounded even vaguely in favour. Usually it's 100% "rubbish, never get accepted, no where near good enough..".
And yet all the previous offers somehow seem to be accepted by the apparently overwhelming 'silent' majority.
Any real chance of this offer being rejected?
I can't see it happening.
Sadly you have hit the nail on the head, there is no chance of this offer being rejected No matter what the consequences.
Nice to see a bit of civility between canniplay and 250 kts
Quote:
Not wishing to point out the obvious, but this is the first pay offer I can remember where anyone at all has sounded even vaguely in favour. Usually it's 100% "rubbish, never get accepted, no where near good enough..".
And yet all the previous offers somehow seem to be accepted by the apparently overwhelming 'silent' majority.
Any real chance of this offer being rejected?
I can't see it happening.
Sadly you have hit the nail on the head, there is no chance of this offer being rejected
No matter what the consequences.Nice to see a bit of civility between canniplay and 250 kts
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I agree with 055166k on this one, it is important that people go along to their pay briefing and listen to what the union guys have to say. I am sure many people will still be unhappy about what the deal will mean to them, but they will at least be able to see the grading structure used to derive the bands. The way the bands were worked out is quite transparent, and the reps were quite happy to talk people through it today at our meeting.
Also, these meetings are your chance to ask the reps questions, and to air your concerns to them. If you don't go no-one else is going to speak for you.
Sadly, I think many people have already made up their minds about this deal and are unwilling to listen to anything that the union has to say.
Suppose I will get the abuse now...."You only say that cos you're at a band 5... fatcat...greedy atco...etc!!"
Oh well, cheers anyway
JuniorX
Also, these meetings are your chance to ask the reps questions, and to air your concerns to them. If you don't go no-one else is going to speak for you.
Sadly, I think many people have already made up their minds about this deal and are unwilling to listen to anything that the union has to say.
Suppose I will get the abuse now...."You only say that cos you're at a band 5... fatcat...greedy atco...etc!!"
Oh well, cheers anyway
JuniorX
Last edited by JuniorX; 31st Jan 2004 at 04:34.