NATS Pay/WP
DangerousD
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I have tried without success on a number of occasions to access the NATS forum , I have e-mailed yet again today to try to gain access.
You can argue we are airing our dirty linen in public, I have to say i do not think that is a bad thing personally in this situation.
I would like the rest of the aviation community to see just how well those of us at the units outside of LACC LTCC and EGLL are treated by both our company and the union.
Those pilots working us are probably more aware of exactly how much effort we have to put in to make things work.
There are many times when i feel like I am juggling 15 balls in the air at a time.
I do not have the luxury of traffic working within Class A airspace doing what it is asked to do with no danger of something appearing suddenly in front of it requiring avoiding turns. I also do not have the luxury of having the vast majority of the aircrew I speak to to being fully competent, I have to deal with GA who rangefrom being superb to being outright diabolically bad.
I have no issue with someone who genuinely works harder than I do being paid more than i do, however there are many occasions when i do not think you can say you are working harder than me, are jobs are not quantifiable in that way.
Yes you move more traffic than i do i do not in anyway dispute that, but I'm sorry you do not deserve to earn 20K a year more than me.
I will be raising all these issues when the union visits us, that is if they visit us quite often we are expected to travel some distance to other units to be briefed.
I have been advised that as I may belong to any union and i do not have to be tied to Prospect, should this vote go through without any satisfaction from Prospect I will i am sure like many be tendering my resignation from Prospect and looking for a union that is prepared to represent everyone. My union dues are exactly the same as those at all other NATS units, my union representation is not.
You can argue we are airing our dirty linen in public, I have to say i do not think that is a bad thing personally in this situation.
I would like the rest of the aviation community to see just how well those of us at the units outside of LACC LTCC and EGLL are treated by both our company and the union.
Those pilots working us are probably more aware of exactly how much effort we have to put in to make things work.
There are many times when i feel like I am juggling 15 balls in the air at a time.
I do not have the luxury of traffic working within Class A airspace doing what it is asked to do with no danger of something appearing suddenly in front of it requiring avoiding turns. I also do not have the luxury of having the vast majority of the aircrew I speak to to being fully competent, I have to deal with GA who rangefrom being superb to being outright diabolically bad.
I have no issue with someone who genuinely works harder than I do being paid more than i do, however there are many occasions when i do not think you can say you are working harder than me, are jobs are not quantifiable in that way.
Yes you move more traffic than i do i do not in anyway dispute that, but I'm sorry you do not deserve to earn 20K a year more than me.
I will be raising all these issues when the union visits us, that is if they visit us quite often we are expected to travel some distance to other units to be briefed.
I have been advised that as I may belong to any union and i do not have to be tied to Prospect, should this vote go through without any satisfaction from Prospect I will i am sure like many be tendering my resignation from Prospect and looking for a union that is prepared to represent everyone. My union dues are exactly the same as those at all other NATS units, my union representation is not.
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Flower seems to have captured the feeling of us lower banded outside CAS airports. But interestingly enough, Band 2 airports are on the same pay as Band 1 airports. Is that going to stay the same?? Will Band 1 go down, or everyone else go up even more to get a gap.
As for the union, I vote that you should pay your union depending on your banding and pay, too. So band 5 units should pay twice what Band 1 units pay (or band 1 pay half!). It only seems as fair as everything else...
When farnborough gets controlled airspace, our non-quantifiable movements will become quantifiable - so overnight they'll go up by 75,000 movements - bet the pay won't go up tho!
Sonic
As for the union, I vote that you should pay your union depending on your banding and pay, too. So band 5 units should pay twice what Band 1 units pay (or band 1 pay half!). It only seems as fair as everything else...
When farnborough gets controlled airspace, our non-quantifiable movements will become quantifiable - so overnight they'll go up by 75,000 movements - bet the pay won't go up tho!
Sonic
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Minesapint says ATCOs are getting a bigger share of the money NATS' has available for pay rises because -
ATCO/ATSA strikes = mayhem. Engineers / support staff / admin strike = minor annoyance.
So it's all down to industrial muscle. You have bullied the company into giving you a big rise at the expense of the rest of NATS workers. What nice prople you are.
PS If you really want more channels for your TV Arkady you should have included the request in you list of demands. I'm sure CBeebies wouldn't have cost much
ATCO/ATSA strikes = mayhem. Engineers / support staff / admin strike = minor annoyance.
So it's all down to industrial muscle. You have bullied the company into giving you a big rise at the expense of the rest of NATS workers. What nice prople you are.
PS If you really want more channels for your TV Arkady you should have included the request in you list of demands. I'm sure CBeebies wouldn't have cost much
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callyoushortly said:
So you're saying that the pay rise offered to you is acceptable, but should be rejected because someone else at a different unit is getting more? Why the fixation with other peoples' pay packets? If you are happy with what you are getting, isn't that all that matters?
Let's think about this. As one of the younger generation of ATCOs, I'm delighted at how much I am paid to do a job which is more or less a glorified computer game. I work nearly 20% fewer days in an average year than the average desk jockey, and even when I am working, it's not always difficult. And I take no work home with me.
But something terrible happens to ATCOs as they grow older. They become GREEDY. A comfortable lifestyle is not enough. Right at the beginning of this thread there was a comment from 250kts concerning AAVAs at Swanwick, and how newly valid controllers are causing resentment by being able to do several each month, and hence get more money. What an appalling attitude - I hope it isn't contagious. These keen young ATCOs are helping the company keep delays down to avoid fines, and all their colleagues can say is, "You're getting more money than me, I don't like that".
The pay offer is indisputably divisive. NATS management wouldn't be happy if it wasn't. But 8.7% is either acceptable, or it's not. The fact that another place is getting 15% should not matter. We're not talking the difference between poverty and opulence, after all.
LTP
Same pay rise for all, let's face it 8.7% on an ATCO2 wage is more than the same rise for a 3, so I guess that this makes it fair, as it's more money for more traffic. No issues with that!!! YES vote all round!
Let's think about this. As one of the younger generation of ATCOs, I'm delighted at how much I am paid to do a job which is more or less a glorified computer game. I work nearly 20% fewer days in an average year than the average desk jockey, and even when I am working, it's not always difficult. And I take no work home with me.
But something terrible happens to ATCOs as they grow older. They become GREEDY. A comfortable lifestyle is not enough. Right at the beginning of this thread there was a comment from 250kts concerning AAVAs at Swanwick, and how newly valid controllers are causing resentment by being able to do several each month, and hence get more money. What an appalling attitude - I hope it isn't contagious. These keen young ATCOs are helping the company keep delays down to avoid fines, and all their colleagues can say is, "You're getting more money than me, I don't like that".
The pay offer is indisputably divisive. NATS management wouldn't be happy if it wasn't. But 8.7% is either acceptable, or it's not. The fact that another place is getting 15% should not matter. We're not talking the difference between poverty and opulence, after all.
LTP
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beep.
No matter what people say you will ignore them. There is an across the board pay offer which covers ATCO/ATSA and engineering grades-I'm not sure about the other employees yet. Then on top of this is a further staged rise which is specific to ATCOs as a recognition of changes to Working Practices and the subsequent savings being made. I don't know where you work but surely you can see that savings made by a particular group should go to that group. Just as the ATSAs will make savings and get a share of those.
It would be naive to say that industrial muscle doesn't come into it but the ATCOs have never exercised that muscle in over 25 years,even over PPP-unlike other European colleagues.
You obviously have a major problem with ATCOs ever having breaks or being able to watch TV during working hours. Would you prefer to be controlled on your early morning flight by someone who has maybe had no sleep for 24 hours or someone who has had the chance to get a couple of hours sleep during the night duty?-look at how the airlines operate.
The company has not been bullied into this rise-it is a share in the savings of 70+ ATCOs across the country. One of the consequences of this is that at LACC we will be reducing the number of staff on nights and therefore increasing the fatigue element and combined with this be required to start a considerable number of duties at 0530-that means an alarm call before 0430 for many. Still such a good deal??????
But then I suppose you already do a wide range of duties with such unsociable shifts or do you sit behind a desk and listen to how good the operational staff have without finding out for yourself. I invite you to come and join me for an 0530 start in July or better still pop in to see us at 0300 any day-we're always there!!
No matter what people say you will ignore them. There is an across the board pay offer which covers ATCO/ATSA and engineering grades-I'm not sure about the other employees yet. Then on top of this is a further staged rise which is specific to ATCOs as a recognition of changes to Working Practices and the subsequent savings being made. I don't know where you work but surely you can see that savings made by a particular group should go to that group. Just as the ATSAs will make savings and get a share of those.
It would be naive to say that industrial muscle doesn't come into it but the ATCOs have never exercised that muscle in over 25 years,even over PPP-unlike other European colleagues.
You obviously have a major problem with ATCOs ever having breaks or being able to watch TV during working hours. Would you prefer to be controlled on your early morning flight by someone who has maybe had no sleep for 24 hours or someone who has had the chance to get a couple of hours sleep during the night duty?-look at how the airlines operate.
The company has not been bullied into this rise-it is a share in the savings of 70+ ATCOs across the country. One of the consequences of this is that at LACC we will be reducing the number of staff on nights and therefore increasing the fatigue element and combined with this be required to start a considerable number of duties at 0530-that means an alarm call before 0430 for many. Still such a good deal??????
But then I suppose you already do a wide range of duties with such unsociable shifts or do you sit behind a desk and listen to how good the operational staff have without finding out for yourself. I invite you to come and join me for an 0530 start in July or better still pop in to see us at 0300 any day-we're always there!!
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Lostthepicture,
Twenty Thousand pounds is a substantial difference in pay between ATCOs and yes it does make a difference.
Glorified computer game, not where i am sitting its not.
The actual pay rise is good, we should be very lucky when many out there are getting considerably less , those complaining about the basic pay rise really must look at themselves, the issue really is regrading.
If you think its OK to earn substantially more than your colleagues and cannot see why we are up in arms about it one wonders if you actually know what we do outside of LACC LTCC and EGLL.
I am also fed up of the " well if you don't like it come and work here" crowd, as many have already said they have tried but for various reasons, usually because we are short of staff and can not be released we are unable to " work there".
What happens if we at the airfields didn't work there, where would your traffic be , certainly not up in the air.
Those of us who are dual valid also feel aggrieved that there are so many Tower only units in the top grading of airfields. At dual valid units people tend to train in the tower first because radar is the more complex of the two ratings, but again thats not being recognised.
The annual pay rise should have been dealt with on a totally separate issue from the regrading, when it was discussed with us at our unit a few months ago we were told it would be a considerable time before the regrading would take place as there were so many variables and they were unable to find a fair solution. It would seem the regrading has thus been pushed through, who pushed it was in NATS or PROSPECT ?
I will tell you why I at the moment will not move, and yes I very seriously looked at it last year. I enjoy my work, I don't think oh no I have to go to work today, as a number of my colleagues at other units do. I get job satisfaction from what i do . But most importantly for me after years of moving with work and family I have finally found somewhere I can call home. I am very aggrieved at the regrading but if the company or anybody else thinks 20K a year will make me move or any other ATCO move they are sorely incorrect, some of us know that there is much more to life than work, and when we finally find ourselves a life we will stay there.
Twenty Thousand pounds is a substantial difference in pay between ATCOs and yes it does make a difference.
Glorified computer game, not where i am sitting its not.
The actual pay rise is good, we should be very lucky when many out there are getting considerably less , those complaining about the basic pay rise really must look at themselves, the issue really is regrading.
If you think its OK to earn substantially more than your colleagues and cannot see why we are up in arms about it one wonders if you actually know what we do outside of LACC LTCC and EGLL.
I am also fed up of the " well if you don't like it come and work here" crowd, as many have already said they have tried but for various reasons, usually because we are short of staff and can not be released we are unable to " work there".
What happens if we at the airfields didn't work there, where would your traffic be , certainly not up in the air.
Those of us who are dual valid also feel aggrieved that there are so many Tower only units in the top grading of airfields. At dual valid units people tend to train in the tower first because radar is the more complex of the two ratings, but again thats not being recognised.
The annual pay rise should have been dealt with on a totally separate issue from the regrading, when it was discussed with us at our unit a few months ago we were told it would be a considerable time before the regrading would take place as there were so many variables and they were unable to find a fair solution. It would seem the regrading has thus been pushed through, who pushed it was in NATS or PROSPECT ?
I will tell you why I at the moment will not move, and yes I very seriously looked at it last year. I enjoy my work, I don't think oh no I have to go to work today, as a number of my colleagues at other units do. I get job satisfaction from what i do . But most importantly for me after years of moving with work and family I have finally found somewhere I can call home. I am very aggrieved at the regrading but if the company or anybody else thinks 20K a year will make me move or any other ATCO move they are sorely incorrect, some of us know that there is much more to life than work, and when we finally find ourselves a life we will stay there.
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Flower,
Well said
I couldn't agree more with you, I certainly hope that Prospect will be visiting ALL the units prior to the ballot and find out exactly how we ALL feel about this issue.
As i've said in previous posts, this is a wholly unfair deal which I believe Prospect have entered into without thinking about the staff at the regional airports, as usual it's all LL, KK and the centres.
I think it was Greebson who mentioned either on this thread or the regrading thread, what about Oceanic controllers?
We at the airports move a damn sight more traffic than any Oceanic controller, what will their grading be? Surely they don't deserve to be in the same band as ScACC radar controllers
Well said
I couldn't agree more with you, I certainly hope that Prospect will be visiting ALL the units prior to the ballot and find out exactly how we ALL feel about this issue.
As i've said in previous posts, this is a wholly unfair deal which I believe Prospect have entered into without thinking about the staff at the regional airports, as usual it's all LL, KK and the centres.
I think it was Greebson who mentioned either on this thread or the regrading thread, what about Oceanic controllers?
We at the airports move a damn sight more traffic than any Oceanic controller, what will their grading be? Surely they don't deserve to be in the same band as ScACC radar controllers
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Oh I didn't understand 250kts.
I didn't realise the cash for your extra pay rise was coming from the savings NATS will make from making 70 ATCOs redunant because of changes to your WP.
Of course if you're going to do the same with less you deserve the money. Maybe NATS should apply that company wide.
I didn't realise the cash for your extra pay rise was coming from the savings NATS will make from making 70 ATCOs redunant because of changes to your WP.
Of course if you're going to do the same with less you deserve the money. Maybe NATS should apply that company wide.
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I cannot believe I am hearing this!!
You all get about an 8% pay rise over two years!
Do any of you actually give a
about everybody else in the world or are you all such a bunch of greedy, self centred ??
There are millions upon millions of people in this country that would chew off their own arms for the salaries you people are on, yet here you are comparing your own fat wallets to somebody elses all because you are p d off that they are getting more than you. I will bet that none of you have ever slept rough for any significant period of time, or that any of you have been plunged into poverty by ailing health 
If you had any sense you would all be happy that you have good well paid jobs and nice comfortable lives and be thankful for what you have and not bemoaning what you don't have!!
I swear to god you are making air traffic controllers look terrible in the eyes of the general public!!
You all get about an 8% pay rise over two years!
Do any of you actually give a
about everybody else in the world or are you all such a bunch of greedy, self centred ??There are millions upon millions of people in this country that would chew off their own arms for the salaries you people are on, yet here you are comparing your own fat wallets to somebody elses all because you are p
d off that they are getting more than you. I will bet that none of you have ever slept rough for any significant period of time, or that any of you have been plunged into poverty by ailing health If you had any sense you would all be happy that you have good well paid jobs and nice comfortable lives and be thankful for what you have and not bemoaning what you don't have!!I swear to god you are making air traffic controllers look terrible in the eyes of the general public!!
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Hold on the left.
Sane and sensible post. That is your first ever post and unlike so many first ever posts it wasn't made on the day of registration. It is a valid reflection of the impression we are giving the rest of the world.
Mind you, I'm getting the full whack.
And incidently, you had better change occupations.
Sane and sensible post. That is your first ever post and unlike so many first ever posts it wasn't made on the day of registration. It is a valid reflection of the impression we are giving the rest of the world.
Mind you, I'm getting the full whack.
And incidently, you had better change occupations.
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Agree with the previous two posts. ATCOs working conditions and pay are pretty good. So much so that a lot of us have forgotten what the "real" world is like.
And JuniorX, I too am immune to attacks from deranged engineers because I also lack a "porch".
And JuniorX, I too am immune to attacks from deranged engineers because I also lack a "porch".
Watchdog Delta Hotel
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hold
thanks for the rant , but ill health and poverty i have t-shirt to prove it (four years pal)
as to your comments on a cr*p pay deal , you are as ill advised on that as to illness and poverty
think please before posting ranting garbage
thanks for the rant , but ill health and poverty i have t-shirt to prove it (four years pal)
as to your comments on a cr*p pay deal , you are as ill advised on that as to illness and poverty
think please before posting ranting garbage
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Thanx for your completely nonsensical reply mainecoon... I'm pretty sure there wasn't a single comment in my rant about a cr*p pay deal... I will stand corrected and apologise if you can prove otherwise.
For your information, I am an ATCO at a Band 5 unit and to be honest with you all I don't give a flying about any of this stuff. I am happy that I am alive, healthy and earning enough money to take care of myself and my family. I just think its about time that some people put all this into some kind of perspective..... If you don't like whats being offered to you, or the way it has all been handled then do something about it instead of trying to stick the knife into everybody else. Personally, I would be happy to move to a Band 1 unit as long as I still have an income and am able to live to enjoy it!! If you want my band 5 salary then you're welcome to it..... every single one of you!!
And please don't be so pathetic to make yourself out to be hard done by. I cannot believe any of you would have the gall to moan about money when the majority of people in this country are considerably worse off than you. I suggest some of you take a look around. Do any of you give a toss about the cleaners, the tug drivers, the pilots who've spent a fortune on their training only to land some cruddy paid job, the police, the firemen, the paramedics, all of whom earn considerably less than you do???
Thought not!!
Time to stop being so selfish and self-centred and enjoy what you have, not wasting your life worrying about what you don't have!!
For your information, I am an ATCO at a Band 5 unit and to be honest with you all I don't give a flying
about any of this stuff. I am happy that I am alive, healthy and earning enough money to take care of myself and my family. I just think its about time that some people put all this into some kind of perspective..... If you don't like whats being offered to you, or the way it has all been handled then do something about it instead of trying to stick the knife into everybody else. Personally, I would be happy to move to a Band 1 unit as long as I still have an income and am able to live to enjoy it!! If you want my band 5 salary then you're welcome to it..... every single one of you!!And please don't be so pathetic to make yourself out to be hard done by. I cannot believe any of you would have the gall to moan about money when the majority of people in this country are considerably worse off than you. I suggest some of you take a look around. Do any of you give a toss about the cleaners, the tug drivers, the pilots who've spent a fortune on their training only to land some cruddy paid job, the police, the firemen, the paramedics, all of whom earn considerably less than you do???
Thought not!!
Time to stop being so selfish and self-centred and enjoy what you have, not wasting your life worrying about what you don't have!!
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beep,
Not sure if you're being sarcastic but I'll try to explain. There will be no ATCOs made redundant as a result of this. I understand that changes are made which reduce the number that would have been needed in the future. So if we reduce the numbers on nights and hence make them more fatiguing due to fewer breaks then that releases more staff onto the day shifts and so more sectors can be opened with the same overall numbers.
I agree with "hotl" to a degree-stop looking at what others have got and ask whether the deal is a good one for YOU in isolation and i think you'll find it is .
Not sure if you're being sarcastic but I'll try to explain. There will be no ATCOs made redundant as a result of this. I understand that changes are made which reduce the number that would have been needed in the future. So if we reduce the numbers on nights and hence make them more fatiguing due to fewer breaks then that releases more staff onto the day shifts and so more sectors can be opened with the same overall numbers.
I agree with "hotl" to a degree-stop looking at what others have got and ask whether the deal is a good one for YOU in isolation and i think you'll find it is .
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hold
you don't have to do anything you don't wish to do
you mentioned a % figure which i think is not the case
also i did not on this thread complain however on another did point out that this is not my unit of choice (aberdeen or edinburgh actually)
i do take your point about lots of people being less well off
so try a car accident near aberdeen leaving you on benefit for four years and then you might have more of an idea of where i'm coming from
never ment this to get personal
regrds maine
you don't have to do anything you don't wish to do
you mentioned a % figure which i think is not the case
also i did not on this thread complain however on another did point out that this is not my unit of choice (aberdeen or edinburgh actually)
i do take your point about lots of people being less well off
so try a car accident near aberdeen leaving you on benefit for four years and then you might have more of an idea of where i'm coming from
never ment this to get personal
regrds maine
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Of course I was being sarcastic.
No ATCOs will be made redundant so NATS won't be saving a single penny.
ALL the extra money you will be getting is coming out of the pot put aside for the pay rises for ALL staff.
You lot are just using your industrial muscle to bully an extra big slice of the pie at the expence of the rest of NATS employees.
To pretend otherwise is BS.
No ATCOs will be made redundant so NATS won't be saving a single penny.
ALL the extra money you will be getting is coming out of the pot put aside for the pay rises for ALL staff.
You lot are just using your industrial muscle to bully an extra big slice of the pie at the expence of the rest of NATS employees.
To pretend otherwise is BS.
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beep,
I would suggest that you take it up with management then about how they choose to spend the money NOT with the group of workers who benefit.
It is wrong to say that NATS don't save-they do. They save in training costs,employment costs and benefit significantly in getting a deal which improves their service delivery to the customer and hence reduces their exposure to any potential fines from the regulator. Now that is something which affects EVERY employee in NATS. Changes to WP in the past 12 months particularly with the 0630 morning start at LACC has led to a major reduction in delays as has,to a lesser extent the moving of sectors from LACC.
The present re-structure was a commitment that was made by ATCOs in the last 2 year pay deal and something that management wanted.
Anyway when did you say you wanted that 0300 visit?
I would suggest that you take it up with management then about how they choose to spend the money NOT with the group of workers who benefit.
It is wrong to say that NATS don't save-they do. They save in training costs,employment costs and benefit significantly in getting a deal which improves their service delivery to the customer and hence reduces their exposure to any potential fines from the regulator. Now that is something which affects EVERY employee in NATS. Changes to WP in the past 12 months particularly with the 0630 morning start at LACC has led to a major reduction in delays as has,to a lesser extent the moving of sectors from LACC.
The present re-structure was a commitment that was made by ATCOs in the last 2 year pay deal and something that management wanted.
Anyway when did you say you wanted that 0300 visit?
