Has Lille given up completely?
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Has Lille given up completely?
For quite a few weeks now, Lille Approach (120.27) has been NOTAMed as no longer providing Flight Information for VFR traffic that is not heading into Lille Lesquin (LFQQ) airport. This most directly affects the Le Touquet and Calais crowd who no longer have anybody to talk to before getting within range of the tower controllers at their destinations. Not a huge loss.
Within the last few weeks, Lille's BRIA (Local FIS office), has become sporadic in filing flight plans from local fields such as Le Touquet, Calais, Amiens and others within its sphere of influence. As the smaller fields have lost their direct connection to the network, Flightplan filing has been taken over by regional BRIAs like Lille... except that frequently they do not have adequate staff to cover the role, and significant delays occur in processing flightplans.
Now, arriving into Le Touquet from Lyon on an IFR on Sunday, I experienced another service curtailment. Lille deals with lower level airways traffic in the North-East of France, and as we descended through FL170, Paris handed us off to Lille. Instead of the usual IFR handover, the subsequent exchange included the phrase
"...you try to remain VMC sir because I am not offering a service to VFR traffic..."
His English was worse than the usual low standards at Lille, so that this may have played a part, but we were left with the distinct impression that we were not being offered any kind of service or separation at all, despite still being IFR and in only intermittent VMC. Finally, as we got closer to Le Touquet we cancelled IFR and joined the circuit in the usual way.
Lille is Radar equipped, and the airspace above FL115 is prohibited for VFR flights without a clearance, so that some sort of service should have been possible.
Has Lille just given up? Is this a case of local politics or is there a genuine problem?
Within the last few weeks, Lille's BRIA (Local FIS office), has become sporadic in filing flight plans from local fields such as Le Touquet, Calais, Amiens and others within its sphere of influence. As the smaller fields have lost their direct connection to the network, Flightplan filing has been taken over by regional BRIAs like Lille... except that frequently they do not have adequate staff to cover the role, and significant delays occur in processing flightplans.
Now, arriving into Le Touquet from Lyon on an IFR on Sunday, I experienced another service curtailment. Lille deals with lower level airways traffic in the North-East of France, and as we descended through FL170, Paris handed us off to Lille. Instead of the usual IFR handover, the subsequent exchange included the phrase
"...you try to remain VMC sir because I am not offering a service to VFR traffic..."
His English was worse than the usual low standards at Lille, so that this may have played a part, but we were left with the distinct impression that we were not being offered any kind of service or separation at all, despite still being IFR and in only intermittent VMC. Finally, as we got closer to Le Touquet we cancelled IFR and joined the circuit in the usual way.
Lille is Radar equipped, and the airspace above FL115 is prohibited for VFR flights without a clearance, so that some sort of service should have been possible.
Has Lille just given up? Is this a case of local politics or is there a genuine problem?
Last edited by 2Donkeys; 14th Oct 2003 at 20:48.
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When Lille first NOTAMed this reduction in service we (London Info) understood that it referred only to cross channel traffic inbound LFAT and LFAC. Controller workload and staff shortages were blamed. This reduced service was to continue until a second frequency was introduced this autumn. At that time they said that they still had to provide seperation between IFR / VFR traffic within the Lille TMA.
I believe the NOTAM covering the service reduction has now been extended. Speaking to Lille they are quite openly admiting that they are also unsure of who they should be providing a service to.
Some days they will work inbounds to the Lille TMA other days they will not work TMA transits.
They are happy for you to log on with them for an alerting service and for traffic awareness but further than that I think service provision is dependant on the colour of you socks and state of the Euro.
Not helpful but that is the situation as I see it.
When Lille first NOTAMed this reduction in service we (London Info) understood that it referred only to cross channel traffic inbound LFAT and LFAC. Controller workload and staff shortages were blamed. This reduced service was to continue until a second frequency was introduced this autumn. At that time they said that they still had to provide seperation between IFR / VFR traffic within the Lille TMA.
I believe the NOTAM covering the service reduction has now been extended. Speaking to Lille they are quite openly admiting that they are also unsure of who they should be providing a service to.
Some days they will work inbounds to the Lille TMA other days they will not work TMA transits.
They are happy for you to log on with them for an alerting service and for traffic awareness but further than that I think service provision is dependant on the colour of you socks and state of the Euro.
Not helpful but that is the situation as I see it.
Last edited by SwanFIS; 14th Oct 2003 at 16:55.
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service provision is dependant on the colour of you socks and state of the Euro
They certainly qualify for some prize, but which one escapes me at the moment.
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Yes, as we have no computer link with Lille low level southbound estimates (level- time - squawk) via B3 TRACA are passed by phone to that unit. They usually have the flight details so we assume that all is hunky dory that side of the water. But, obviously not.
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Thanks SWANFIS. I assumed that was how it was done. There is obviously a problem of some sort there. It would be nice to know that somebody was on the case, but I fear not.
2D
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Have had similar experiences with Lille when appearing over the FIR boundary IFR but outside controlled airspace.
Lille assumes that all G-reg aircraft appearing over the boundary IFR are IMC holders on 'Z' flight plans who are going VFR once in French Airspace. They seem to get confused when IR holders turn up on 'I' flight plans wanting to go IFR all the way.
'Maintain VMC report the field in sight'
'I'm IFR'
'You're in French Airspace now, VFR only, maintain VMC report the field in sight, sir'
'Roger and I'm in IMC under IFR, and equipped and rated to do so, sir'
They've done this to me a couple of times.
Lille assumes that all G-reg aircraft appearing over the boundary IFR are IMC holders on 'Z' flight plans who are going VFR once in French Airspace. They seem to get confused when IR holders turn up on 'I' flight plans wanting to go IFR all the way.
'Maintain VMC report the field in sight'
'I'm IFR'
'You're in French Airspace now, VFR only, maintain VMC report the field in sight, sir'
'Roger and I'm in IMC under IFR, and equipped and rated to do so, sir'
They've done this to me a couple of times.
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Lille assumes that all G-reg aircraft appearing over the boundary IFR are IMC holders on 'Z' flight plans who are going VFR once in French Airspace. They seem to get confused when IR holders turn up on 'I' flight plans wanting to go IFR all the way.
If you just "appear" in the French FIR claiming to be IFR and having not been under the care of London Control, then you will cause confusion. The recommended approach if you intend to do this is to call London Information and to ask them to co-ordinate an IFR clearance for you from the FIR boundary. They will liaise with France, obtain your IFR clearance and give you a squawk and a frequency for the appropriate agency. At the appropriate time you will call them and your transition will be complete.
Being slightly pedantic, you are committing an offence if you operate IFR in French airspace without a specific clearance, and by simply arriving in LFFF from EGTT without co-ordinating, you don't have a clearance. Simply putting "I" in the FPL and filing a leg to LT does not give you that clearance either.
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Thanks 2D,
Ignore my loose turn of phrase in using the word 'appeared', on both occasions what actually happened was that I was handed over to Lille by London Inf, (can't remember whether it was with a squawk or not). I didn't think this out of the ordinary since it's more than you usually get crossing the boundary VFR these days.
On both occasions after much head scratching by Lille and some negotiation they worked out what was happening and I obtained the proper clearance to the LT. So if there was any illegality it was only from the FIR boundary to Lille issuing the magic words 'you are cleared to the LT' words, if indeed I wasn't cleared by Lonodn Inf's handover.
Taking your recommendation I guess I need to be a bit clearer with London Information in future to save confusion. Belt and Braces.
cheers!
foggy.
Ignore my loose turn of phrase in using the word 'appeared', on both occasions what actually happened was that I was handed over to Lille by London Inf, (can't remember whether it was with a squawk or not). I didn't think this out of the ordinary since it's more than you usually get crossing the boundary VFR these days.
On both occasions after much head scratching by Lille and some negotiation they worked out what was happening and I obtained the proper clearance to the LT. So if there was any illegality it was only from the FIR boundary to Lille issuing the magic words 'you are cleared to the LT' words, if indeed I wasn't cleared by Lonodn Inf's handover.
Taking your recommendation I guess I need to be a bit clearer with London Information in future to save confusion. Belt and Braces.
cheers!
foggy.
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I would guess that you were perhaps not handed over as such. Rather London Info did its usual thing of suggesting that you Freecall Lille Information when you report mid-channel. They did this for VFR flights before the NOTAM too. This was not the same as negotiating for an IFR clearance.
I don't really know how much understanding London Information has of the fundamental differences between IFR flight in UK airspace, and IFR in France (or elsewhere in Europe). SWANFIS?
2D
I don't really know how much understanding London Information has of the fundamental differences between IFR flight in UK airspace, and IFR in France (or elsewhere in Europe). SWANFIS?
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The "unit procedures" for contacting / freecalling / joining other FIRs is tailored to each countries requirements and needs with regard to their particular airspace classification.
If we stick with Lille you are correct to say that London Info do not coordinate your flight in to Lille airspace. It is a frecall to 120.27 on crossing the UK coast. This was requested by Lille some time ago because they were getting planes too late to sort out against their TMA traffic.
As far as IFR clearances are concerned I have not tried to obtain one as there has, until now, seemed to be no need as an early freecall to them was all that was required and "seemed to do the job". Perhaps we have to change the book..
Staffing and traffic levels permiting I will have a go at an IFR clearance into Lille and feed back the result.
IFR / VFR rules in French airspace, never to old to learn always ready to listen. I am sitting at the bottom of the learning curve ready for clearance. Go for it.
The "unit procedures" for contacting / freecalling / joining other FIRs is tailored to each countries requirements and needs with regard to their particular airspace classification.
If we stick with Lille you are correct to say that London Info do not coordinate your flight in to Lille airspace. It is a frecall to 120.27 on crossing the UK coast. This was requested by Lille some time ago because they were getting planes too late to sort out against their TMA traffic.
As far as IFR clearances are concerned I have not tried to obtain one as there has, until now, seemed to be no need as an early freecall to them was all that was required and "seemed to do the job". Perhaps we have to change the book..
Staffing and traffic levels permiting I will have a go at an IFR clearance into Lille and feed back the result.
IFR / VFR rules in French airspace, never to old to learn always ready to listen. I am sitting at the bottom of the learning curve ready for clearance. Go for it.
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I think it's pretty much all been said.
Flights can only fly IFR in France under a specific clearance. They do not have the concept of flying IFR without a flight plan outside controlled airspace that we have in the UK.
For this reason, I am imagining that the boys in Lille would expect all IFR flights to be co-ordinated through London Control, leaving London Information to pass VFR flights to them in the way you describe.
If the IFR flight concerned was outside controlled airspace in the UK and was therefore not receiving a service from London Control, a specific clearance would normally be required if they are to be treated as an IFR flight in French airspace without confusion.
Either that, or the French need to be educated to the possibilty of an IFR flight appearing in their airspace other than through the London Control handover - and need to respond accordingly. Certainly they don't "get" that concept at the moment, and the reaction in Lille is a function of the experience of the controller on duty. Simple things like ensuring that the inbound flight adjusts to a semicircular flight level (mandatory for IFR flights in France) need to be taken care of, and seem to me to fall down through the cracks at the moment.
A mechanism similar to the one used with VFR->IFR flights into the Dutch FIR would seem to be desirable. The VFR (or off-piste IFR flight) nominates an entry point, a level and an estimate to London, and London obtains a frequency squawk and clearance.
I'd be very happy to correspond directly about this. It has been broken for a long time (leaving aside Lille's current problems), not just because of Lille's misunderstanding of UK IFR, but also our misunderstanding of French IFR procedures.
Drop me a PM if you think it is something that appeals. It would be great to get it fixed, and to spread the word on both sides of the channel.
2D
Flights can only fly IFR in France under a specific clearance. They do not have the concept of flying IFR without a flight plan outside controlled airspace that we have in the UK.
For this reason, I am imagining that the boys in Lille would expect all IFR flights to be co-ordinated through London Control, leaving London Information to pass VFR flights to them in the way you describe.
If the IFR flight concerned was outside controlled airspace in the UK and was therefore not receiving a service from London Control, a specific clearance would normally be required if they are to be treated as an IFR flight in French airspace without confusion.
Either that, or the French need to be educated to the possibilty of an IFR flight appearing in their airspace other than through the London Control handover - and need to respond accordingly. Certainly they don't "get" that concept at the moment, and the reaction in Lille is a function of the experience of the controller on duty. Simple things like ensuring that the inbound flight adjusts to a semicircular flight level (mandatory for IFR flights in France) need to be taken care of, and seem to me to fall down through the cracks at the moment.
A mechanism similar to the one used with VFR->IFR flights into the Dutch FIR would seem to be desirable. The VFR (or off-piste IFR flight) nominates an entry point, a level and an estimate to London, and London obtains a frequency squawk and clearance.
I'd be very happy to correspond directly about this. It has been broken for a long time (leaving aside Lille's current problems), not just because of Lille's misunderstanding of UK IFR, but also our misunderstanding of French IFR procedures.
Drop me a PM if you think it is something that appeals. It would be great to get it fixed, and to spread the word on both sides of the channel.
2D
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I will see what contact we have with Lille through our Ops support section.
Have just spoken to the Lille controller on duty this morning but will do some homework before I reply to your last post.
I will see what contact we have with Lille through our Ops support section.
Have just spoken to the Lille controller on duty this morning but will do some homework before I reply to your last post.
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SWANFIS:
It's not just 2D who is interested in this thread. There's a lot of UK IFR pilots who have had similar questions in their minds. Look forward to further input.
AA.
It's not just 2D who is interested in this thread. There's a lot of UK IFR pilots who have had similar questions in their minds. Look forward to further input.
AA.
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I spoke to the Lille controller yesterday and the idea of IFR traffic coming from class G airspace and looking for an IFR clearance into / across the TMA was met with total incomprehension. He did however understand the concept of Z flight plans.
2D you look as if you were correct when you said that our two units do not totally understand each others IFR / VFR rules. I certainly am not happy with my understanding of them.
I am going to write to the Lille ops section and try to get a dialogue going in the hope that at the very least there will be better understanding amongst us all of the procedures and problems that have been mentioned here.
alphaalpha I agree and will post results (or lack of them) on this forum.
2D I hope to get a pm to you tomorrow.
2D you look as if you were correct when you said that our two units do not totally understand each others IFR / VFR rules. I certainly am not happy with my understanding of them.
I am going to write to the Lille ops section and try to get a dialogue going in the hope that at the very least there will be better understanding amongst us all of the procedures and problems that have been mentioned here.
alphaalpha I agree and will post results (or lack of them) on this forum.
2D I hope to get a pm to you tomorrow.
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This may be apocryphal...
The first time I saw the NOTAM about "no service by Lille App to VFR flights", I asked what was happening when I got to LFAC.
The tower controller at Calais said he understood Lille had been "given" some sectors of what had been Paris Control, but without added controllers or equipment. They therefore didn't have the capacity to handle VFR any more...
Maybe those Paris Controllers are seconded to other duties - like watching traffic contravening the rash of new TRAs round the nuclear power stations?
I just don't bother calling Lille any more when VFR to LFAx. I suppose the next event may be the return of Le Touquet Approach!
'Tis baffling, though. I look forward to hearing the "real" story.
On the rare occasions I've flown IFR in France, I've had clearances direct to places far distant, off airways. I assumed that was "usual", but maybe they treat puddlejumpers differently from real aircraft. But it does seem inconsistent with the confusion at IFR stuff "just turning up".
The first time I saw the NOTAM about "no service by Lille App to VFR flights", I asked what was happening when I got to LFAC.
The tower controller at Calais said he understood Lille had been "given" some sectors of what had been Paris Control, but without added controllers or equipment. They therefore didn't have the capacity to handle VFR any more...
Maybe those Paris Controllers are seconded to other duties - like watching traffic contravening the rash of new TRAs round the nuclear power stations?
I just don't bother calling Lille any more when VFR to LFAx. I suppose the next event may be the return of Le Touquet Approach!
'Tis baffling, though. I look forward to hearing the "real" story.
On the rare occasions I've flown IFR in France, I've had clearances direct to places far distant, off airways. I assumed that was "usual", but maybe they treat puddlejumpers differently from real aircraft. But it does seem inconsistent with the confusion at IFR stuff "just turning up".
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foghorn - alphaalpa - keef
I have got a reply back from Lille ATC explaining their problems and specific IFR / VFR rules. At the moment the document format has got the better of me and am not able to edit and post it in reasonable format. If you would like a copy send me your e-mail address and I will send to you. That also goes for any other pilots that are interested.
It is an interesting letter and shows the frustration that Lille feels with those of us in the flying and ATC communities that are not fully aware of procedures in the Lille TMA. They have proved to be very helpful and I will try to follow up any particular concerns people might have.
The two main points are -
IFR - Class E airspace - clearance to enter mandatory.
Seperation IFR and IFR traffic (IFR and VFR if practical). This requirement is for IFR inbounds to LFAC and LFAT as well as TMA transits below FL115.
VFR - FIS if practical (it is not practical and is not provided)
VFR traffic to call LFAC, LFAT, or Paris information for flight information service. Keep a look out and avoid others.
The second frequency will not be available until the end of 2004 at the earliest due staff shortages.
I will do my best to format the letter for posting. In the meantime I will now try and get procedures written / changed to ease at least some of the problems mentioned.
2D has given me some useful feedback - always ready for more.
SWANFIS
I have got a reply back from Lille ATC explaining their problems and specific IFR / VFR rules. At the moment the document format has got the better of me and am not able to edit and post it in reasonable format. If you would like a copy send me your e-mail address and I will send to you. That also goes for any other pilots that are interested.
It is an interesting letter and shows the frustration that Lille feels with those of us in the flying and ATC communities that are not fully aware of procedures in the Lille TMA. They have proved to be very helpful and I will try to follow up any particular concerns people might have.
The two main points are -
IFR - Class E airspace - clearance to enter mandatory.
Seperation IFR and IFR traffic (IFR and VFR if practical). This requirement is for IFR inbounds to LFAC and LFAT as well as TMA transits below FL115.
VFR - FIS if practical (it is not practical and is not provided)
VFR traffic to call LFAC, LFAT, or Paris information for flight information service. Keep a look out and avoid others.
The second frequency will not be available until the end of 2004 at the earliest due staff shortages.
I will do my best to format the letter for posting. In the meantime I will now try and get procedures written / changed to ease at least some of the problems mentioned.
2D has given me some useful feedback - always ready for more.
SWANFIS
Last edited by SwanFIS; 7th Nov 2003 at 17:02.