Has Lille given up completely?
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This is the main thrust of the letter. Hope the edit is ok -----
The different points you make are very important indeed, and causing a lot
of problems to the controllers on each side of the channel.
first point: IFR traffic can fly in class G airspace in France. They do
not need IFR clearance but must file a flight plan and comply with it (
mainly for SAR purpose ) Radio contact with Flight Information Service is
not mandatory ( though recommended ).
Prior to crossing any controlled area (AWY or TMA ) they must contact an
ATC service to receive a clearance. I think that is similar for France
and UK.
second point: in case of I or Y flight plan we are happy with giving an
IFR clearance within controlled airspace, and FIS in class G airspace. If
London FIR pass an estimate on IFR traffic, we will ask them to advise the
aircraft to join french controlled airspace ( in fact Lille TMA 6 and 7)
at a compatible altitude in regard with other IFR traffic flying in these
TMAs ( this altitude or FL beeing given by the french controller as an
answer to London FIR ) and to call Lille-W 120.27 as early as possible. In
this case the compliance with the semi circular rule is not necessary as
an altitude has been agreed upon before entering controlled airspace. If
the IFR traffic is not entering controlled airspace a correct semi
circular level should be maintained and the FIS will be provided to this
aircraft. Any way, we definitely need a phone call from London FIR for any
IFR traffic bound to LFAT or LFAC and/or traffic transitting in the
associated TMAs ( Lille 6 and 7 ).
A few words about TMA6 (associated with LFAC ) and TMA7 (associated with
LFAT) : both are controlled airspace class E. IFR traffic must receive a
clearance to join these TMAs but VFR traffic can fly through them without
any notice or radio call. They just have to maintain controlled airspace
visual conditions and are responsible for their own separation with VFR
and IFR traffic.
About the AWYs in Lille W sector : the floor is FL65 and the AWY airspace is
class E up to FL 115 included ( above FL115 the airspace is class D and
belongs to Paris ACC ). Any IFR traffic flying below the awy floor is
right to do so if the pilot wishes and will be given FIS by contract with
the flight plan if the pilot decides to remain on FIS frequency. But
before entering controlled airspace he will have to request a clearance on
FIS frequency and the controller will coordinate his flight with the relevant ATC with , if necessary , a change to the control frequency .
About the absolute necessity of coordination of IFR traffic from London
FIR to Lille-W 120.27 :
It happened many times that an IFR aircraft coming from UK ( without any
notice at all ) called Lille-W at 2000'at the very moment it entered the
TMA6 (above LFAC) heading to MK with an other IFR aircraft departing LFAC
or starting the ILS procedure for the approach, leaving pretty short time
for the controller to overcome his surprise and to order an avoiding
action to one or the other aircraft . It is a nearmiss situation that can
be avoided by a beforehand coordination between London FIR or the
departing airport ( EGMD,EGMH, EGMC...) and Lille-W sector. Same nasty
situations have been encountered with IFR and VFR traffic coming from DVR
straight on to LFAT,established on the LLZ at 2000' or 3000', calling Lille when
reaching the limit of TMA7 which is located at mid distance between Lydd
and Le Touquet while an IFR traffic was performing the procedure turn...
third point : the NOTAM about the disruption of FIS in Lille.
The shortage of staff and the pressure of trade unions obliged us to stop providing the FIS for VFR traffic during last summer. VFR traffic from the UK bound to LFAT or LFAC or transitting through their CTRs (ground /1500')should be invited to contact these airports on their TWR frequencies. VFR aircraft flying through Lille TMAs 6 and 7 (class E airspace) and in class G airspace will not receive FIS even in presence of IFR traffic (the crews beeing responsible for their visual separation with any other traffic).
Regarding the remark made by one of my colleagues : he is right to request VFR traffic on his frequency , provided he is working in class D airspace (which is the case of TMAs 1,2,3,5,8 associated with LFQQ airport). In the exemple of TMAs 6 and 7, he is wrong because the airspace is class E and VFR traffic is not compelled to a radio contact with ATC ( according to rules in class E airspace).
New frequency in Lille ATC :
Lille APP is now equipped with a new frequency 134.825 dedicated for Lille Information.120.27 becomes a strictly IFR frequency to work for ATC in the different TMAs in Lille W sector(TMAs 4,5,6 and 7).
This new frequency is officially declared " operational "starting from 27 NOV 2003 ( ref. AIP France 27/11/03). But as soon as it is operational , it will not be used due to shortage of staff and a NOTAM will be issued on time ( french logic, let's leave it at that !)
As a result 120.27 will be the only frequency monitored by Lille W that you will continue to send your IFR traffic on. Nobody will be expected to answer on frequency 134.82 until ,at least , the end of 2004, the time for young controllers to be qualified in sufficient number.
I thank you very much to sympathise with us regarding all the difficulties we are currently encountering. I think the main point on which your help will be much apreciated is the coordination of low altitude IFR traffic to Lille W.
All the other problems are internal to french CAA, Lille ATC and, of course, the trade unions ( nothing simple!).
The different points you make are very important indeed, and causing a lot
of problems to the controllers on each side of the channel.
first point: IFR traffic can fly in class G airspace in France. They do
not need IFR clearance but must file a flight plan and comply with it (
mainly for SAR purpose ) Radio contact with Flight Information Service is
not mandatory ( though recommended ).
Prior to crossing any controlled area (AWY or TMA ) they must contact an
ATC service to receive a clearance. I think that is similar for France
and UK.
second point: in case of I or Y flight plan we are happy with giving an
IFR clearance within controlled airspace, and FIS in class G airspace. If
London FIR pass an estimate on IFR traffic, we will ask them to advise the
aircraft to join french controlled airspace ( in fact Lille TMA 6 and 7)
at a compatible altitude in regard with other IFR traffic flying in these
TMAs ( this altitude or FL beeing given by the french controller as an
answer to London FIR ) and to call Lille-W 120.27 as early as possible. In
this case the compliance with the semi circular rule is not necessary as
an altitude has been agreed upon before entering controlled airspace. If
the IFR traffic is not entering controlled airspace a correct semi
circular level should be maintained and the FIS will be provided to this
aircraft. Any way, we definitely need a phone call from London FIR for any
IFR traffic bound to LFAT or LFAC and/or traffic transitting in the
associated TMAs ( Lille 6 and 7 ).
A few words about TMA6 (associated with LFAC ) and TMA7 (associated with
LFAT) : both are controlled airspace class E. IFR traffic must receive a
clearance to join these TMAs but VFR traffic can fly through them without
any notice or radio call. They just have to maintain controlled airspace
visual conditions and are responsible for their own separation with VFR
and IFR traffic.
About the AWYs in Lille W sector : the floor is FL65 and the AWY airspace is
class E up to FL 115 included ( above FL115 the airspace is class D and
belongs to Paris ACC ). Any IFR traffic flying below the awy floor is
right to do so if the pilot wishes and will be given FIS by contract with
the flight plan if the pilot decides to remain on FIS frequency. But
before entering controlled airspace he will have to request a clearance on
FIS frequency and the controller will coordinate his flight with the relevant ATC with , if necessary , a change to the control frequency .
About the absolute necessity of coordination of IFR traffic from London
FIR to Lille-W 120.27 :
It happened many times that an IFR aircraft coming from UK ( without any
notice at all ) called Lille-W at 2000'at the very moment it entered the
TMA6 (above LFAC) heading to MK with an other IFR aircraft departing LFAC
or starting the ILS procedure for the approach, leaving pretty short time
for the controller to overcome his surprise and to order an avoiding
action to one or the other aircraft . It is a nearmiss situation that can
be avoided by a beforehand coordination between London FIR or the
departing airport ( EGMD,EGMH, EGMC...) and Lille-W sector. Same nasty
situations have been encountered with IFR and VFR traffic coming from DVR
straight on to LFAT,established on the LLZ at 2000' or 3000', calling Lille when
reaching the limit of TMA7 which is located at mid distance between Lydd
and Le Touquet while an IFR traffic was performing the procedure turn...
third point : the NOTAM about the disruption of FIS in Lille.
The shortage of staff and the pressure of trade unions obliged us to stop providing the FIS for VFR traffic during last summer. VFR traffic from the UK bound to LFAT or LFAC or transitting through their CTRs (ground /1500')should be invited to contact these airports on their TWR frequencies. VFR aircraft flying through Lille TMAs 6 and 7 (class E airspace) and in class G airspace will not receive FIS even in presence of IFR traffic (the crews beeing responsible for their visual separation with any other traffic).
Regarding the remark made by one of my colleagues : he is right to request VFR traffic on his frequency , provided he is working in class D airspace (which is the case of TMAs 1,2,3,5,8 associated with LFQQ airport). In the exemple of TMAs 6 and 7, he is wrong because the airspace is class E and VFR traffic is not compelled to a radio contact with ATC ( according to rules in class E airspace).
New frequency in Lille ATC :
Lille APP is now equipped with a new frequency 134.825 dedicated for Lille Information.120.27 becomes a strictly IFR frequency to work for ATC in the different TMAs in Lille W sector(TMAs 4,5,6 and 7).
This new frequency is officially declared " operational "starting from 27 NOV 2003 ( ref. AIP France 27/11/03). But as soon as it is operational , it will not be used due to shortage of staff and a NOTAM will be issued on time ( french logic, let's leave it at that !)
As a result 120.27 will be the only frequency monitored by Lille W that you will continue to send your IFR traffic on. Nobody will be expected to answer on frequency 134.82 until ,at least , the end of 2004, the time for young controllers to be qualified in sufficient number.
I thank you very much to sympathise with us regarding all the difficulties we are currently encountering. I think the main point on which your help will be much apreciated is the coordination of low altitude IFR traffic to Lille W.
All the other problems are internal to french CAA, Lille ATC and, of course, the trade unions ( nothing simple!).
PPruNaholic!
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SWANFIS: given the above, what frequency will you from now on be suggesting VFR traffic switch to mid-channel if enroute to some destination in France (not LFAC / LFAT), such as say Reims for example, which entails flying into the Lille Class E. It sounds from the above that you will just say "freecall enroute", or maybe Paris Information?
Given that there is no-one that wants to hear from us, we can of course just continue on our way. But I was under the impression - perhaps mistaken? - that on entering an adjacent FIR (and in this case also crossing an adjacent international State boundary) it was necessary to let them know that you were doing so. Having said that, I can't think of any relevant regulation that says so...
Cheers, and thanks again for your work in harmonising international relations!
Andy
Given that there is no-one that wants to hear from us, we can of course just continue on our way. But I was under the impression - perhaps mistaken? - that on entering an adjacent FIR (and in this case also crossing an adjacent international State boundary) it was necessary to let them know that you were doing so. Having said that, I can't think of any relevant regulation that says so...
Cheers, and thanks again for your work in harmonising international relations!
Andy
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Aussie Andy
The official line is that 120.27 (Lille) is no longer available to provide FIS to VFR traffic. This is NOTAMed. In that event, once you are sufficiently close, you contact Le Touquet or Calais Tower.
In the case of Le Touquet, the Le Touquet TMA protrudes into the UK FIR in any case.
The bigger issue relates to IFR traffic arriving in France other than on an airways clearance, of which more anon.
2D
The official line is that 120.27 (Lille) is no longer available to provide FIS to VFR traffic. This is NOTAMed. In that event, once you are sufficiently close, you contact Le Touquet or Calais Tower.
In the case of Le Touquet, the Le Touquet TMA protrudes into the UK FIR in any case.
The bigger issue relates to IFR traffic arriving in France other than on an airways clearance, of which more anon.
2D
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Ausie Andy
The guide lines from Lille suggest that a FIS in that part of French airspace can be provided by LFAT, LFAC and Paris Information.
You obviously will not get comprehensive traffic information but I dont know if they provide that before. In any case FIS traffic info is a very innacurate art whoever provides it. As they say it is class E airspace keep a look out and assume in that busy airspace that you are not alone. With that in mind, although it was not in Andres letter I know that they are happy for you to log on for an alerting service / listening watch on 120.7 so that you can at least be aware of the English speaking a/c intentions. The billingual 2D will have the edge here!
As 2D says the IFR procedures have to be sorted out and progress is being made there but officialdom can move slowly. Are there any ATC peeps from Manston or LYD reading this. It would be interesting to hear your views as your units will have to agree with any new procedures that Swanwick proposes?
Waiting for another letter from Lille on proposed procedures - will post on receiving.
Could I stress that at this stage the views I express are my own and not in any way an official statement from NATS. Concerned employee not spokesman. End of health warning
SWANFIS
The guide lines from Lille suggest that a FIS in that part of French airspace can be provided by LFAT, LFAC and Paris Information.
You obviously will not get comprehensive traffic information but I dont know if they provide that before. In any case FIS traffic info is a very innacurate art whoever provides it. As they say it is class E airspace keep a look out and assume in that busy airspace that you are not alone. With that in mind, although it was not in Andres letter I know that they are happy for you to log on for an alerting service / listening watch on 120.7 so that you can at least be aware of the English speaking a/c intentions. The billingual 2D will have the edge here!
As 2D says the IFR procedures have to be sorted out and progress is being made there but officialdom can move slowly. Are there any ATC peeps from Manston or LYD reading this. It would be interesting to hear your views as your units will have to agree with any new procedures that Swanwick proposes?
Waiting for another letter from Lille on proposed procedures - will post on receiving.
Could I stress that at this stage the views I express are my own and not in any way an official statement from NATS. Concerned employee not spokesman. End of health warning
SWANFIS
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Thanks SwanFIS: I wasn't worried about getting traffic information, and no we didn't get much of that before anyway..! So I still need to find out if I am required to make contact with FIS when crossing the State boundary. Presuming not, then I think my choice (if not passing close by LFAC / LFAT) will be to maintain listening watch on 120.27.
Thanks - you really are a star: I think this degree of dialogue between pilots / UK ATC / FR ATC is fabulous.
I shall end with a prayer of thanks: "Our Danny, who art in PPRuNe, thank you for this system...!"
etc.
P.S. Just saw your PM, thanks...
Andy
Thanks - you really are a star: I think this degree of dialogue between pilots / UK ATC / FR ATC is fabulous.
I shall end with a prayer of thanks: "Our Danny, who art in PPRuNe, thank you for this system...!"
etc.
P.S. Just saw your PM, thanks...
Andy
Last edited by Aussie Andy; 11th Nov 2003 at 16:51.
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There is a typo there in SWANFIS' message. That frequency is 120.27 (Lille Info). Not 120.7.
On your other point, as far as the French are concerned, there is no legal requirement for you to make contact with a French station as you cross the FIR boundary - providing you will be remaining clear of controlled airspace. However, should you elect not to talk to anybody, you are required to monitor 121.5. This regulation came in post 9/11 and is to protect you from the obvious side-effects of an interception.
2D
On your other point, as far as the French are concerned, there is no legal requirement for you to make contact with a French station as you cross the FIR boundary - providing you will be remaining clear of controlled airspace. However, should you elect not to talk to anybody, you are required to monitor 121.5. This regulation came in post 9/11 and is to protect you from the obvious side-effects of an interception.
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Aussi Andy, 2Donkeys,
Read your posts with interest. I hope this is not a trend in general in France, as I must add that my experience of talking to ATC with class E airspace in the south-west is that they would prefer it if you gave them a call, and are more than helpful every time you do. I think this is because a lot of French pilots don’t call them as they don’t technically have to if they are VFR passing through - my experience of flying with the locals at my club is that they avoid ATC & any controlled airspace whenever possible!!
As regards international boundary requirements in France, my copy of VFR Flight rules France says the following under section 1.2.Radio Contact:
‘When pilots enter or leave French Airspace, they must contact a French ATC unit. If it is impossible to establish first contact with the Flight Information Center or Flight Information Sector concerned, they may preferably contact the border aerodromes concerned;
LFKJ, LFSB, LFKB, LFBZ, LFAC, LFLB, LFQQ, LFMN, LFMP, LFST. (aerodrome names mentioned too)
The mandatory report message shall include information;
-Aircraft registration,
-Aerodrome of departure and destination,
-“Border Crossed” indication,
-Position, altitude, time.
If the pilot cannot make this contact he must contact the police and customs services to have a link with ACC.’
Now for the disclaimer: this is not, I admit, from the latest edition, but one I bought when coming here in 2001, but I would have thought that after 9/11 the rules got stricter….
Regards, SD..
PS I will check the latest edition when I go to the club this weekend.
Read your posts with interest. I hope this is not a trend in general in France, as I must add that my experience of talking to ATC with class E airspace in the south-west is that they would prefer it if you gave them a call, and are more than helpful every time you do. I think this is because a lot of French pilots don’t call them as they don’t technically have to if they are VFR passing through - my experience of flying with the locals at my club is that they avoid ATC & any controlled airspace whenever possible!!
As regards international boundary requirements in France, my copy of VFR Flight rules France says the following under section 1.2.Radio Contact:
‘When pilots enter or leave French Airspace, they must contact a French ATC unit. If it is impossible to establish first contact with the Flight Information Center or Flight Information Sector concerned, they may preferably contact the border aerodromes concerned;
LFKJ, LFSB, LFKB, LFBZ, LFAC, LFLB, LFQQ, LFMN, LFMP, LFST. (aerodrome names mentioned too)
The mandatory report message shall include information;
-Aircraft registration,
-Aerodrome of departure and destination,
-“Border Crossed” indication,
-Position, altitude, time.
If the pilot cannot make this contact he must contact the police and customs services to have a link with ACC.’
Now for the disclaimer: this is not, I admit, from the latest edition, but one I bought when coming here in 2001, but I would have thought that after 9/11 the rules got stricter….
Regards, SD..
PS I will check the latest edition when I go to the club this weekend.
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skydriler thanks, that is helpful... I have also heard since that another consideration is to make contact once across the water so that any SAR later knows that at least you made it across safely!
Of course, we must deal with the art of the possible though: I have had the experience of flying across the channel direct to Dieppe, arriving around lunchtime, unable to establish reliable comms with Paris Info, and no answer from LFAB Dieppe (lunchtime)... in the end I made contact with Rouen APP (I think). So its can be tough to "do the right thing" on occasion!
But it is clear, in the context of a VFR crossing via the LFAC area from what has been said it seems it would make sense to contact them even if not flying over head, or Cherbourg etc. if unable to contact anyone else.
Thanks!
Andy
Of course, we must deal with the art of the possible though: I have had the experience of flying across the channel direct to Dieppe, arriving around lunchtime, unable to establish reliable comms with Paris Info, and no answer from LFAB Dieppe (lunchtime)... in the end I made contact with Rouen APP (I think). So its can be tough to "do the right thing" on occasion!
But it is clear, in the context of a VFR crossing via the LFAC area from what has been said it seems it would make sense to contact them even if not flying over head, or Cherbourg etc. if unable to contact anyone else.
Thanks!
Andy
