Be level by FOYLE !!!

[Kiltie]

I wonder if anyone in ScATCC can help us with this one. We run a 146-300 out of Inverness (British 641/5/7) and are persistently asked these days by the 124.5 controller half way down W3D to make FL250 25nm before the GOW (ie the Inverness side of Foyle). This is nigh on impossible in this aircraft. It is not a Boeing and simply runs out of steam, despite our efforts to increase pitch angle, poke the fires etc. What is most frustrating is that we are invariably not given this instruction until it is too far in to the sector, and we are having to put more strain on the engines to satisfy it.

Can you give us a reason for this request, and why it can't be incorporated in to the clearance prior to departure? As the winter approaches and we have all the anti-ice selected, you'll be lucky if we make FL250 at all let alone by Foyle.

Thanks for shedding some light on this one.

[AyrTC]

Its an internal coordination thing. If you are at fl250 by Foyle the Tay sector controller (124.5) does not need to make a phonecall to the TMA sector. I personally never try to get you to be level by Foyle because I am usually able to coordinate and it always brings a smile to the TMA controllers face when when you say " sorry mate that heap of s off Inverness can only make 230 by the boundary"

So Iwould say it is down to laziness??? on the controllers part,however what would be useful if you could tell us what level you could make by Foyle and we could pass that on.( that of course would ruin the TMA game when quiet of betting on what level that heap of s from Inverness will make by the GOW).I won twenty pence once

AyrTC

ps having re read your post when you depart from EGPE during the week you depart on a standing agreemment with Lossie so you will always be given FL100 for departure,It is only at weekends when Lossie are closed when you will get "traditional "clerances e.g climb to maintain FL210 climb when instructed by Scottish Radar FL250

[The Fat Controller]

Personally, I have never asked a 146 to be level by Foyle.
Most experienced controllers know it is always going to be a case of co-ordinated climb with the next sector, and as that 124.5 controller already has to make the phonecall as per the inter-sector procedures, even if you mange to be level, there is no excuse for such laziness.
Guess you have been unlucky to get that more than once, and will pass your comments around the Ops room.
The team I work with are of the betting variety, what are you going to make by GOW ? , and all of us accept that you regularly struggle.
Regards

[055166k]

Service?

Personally I thought we were here to provide a service to our customers. Down at LACC Swanwick we are able to accommodate a wide variety of aircraft performance, it is bloody hard work most of the time but I think I speak for most of my colleagues when I dissociate myself from any derogatory comment. The 146 performs how the 146 performs, don't try to get the pilot to break his aeroplane and consider revising the ATC procedures if this is a recurring problem[for you].

[BALIX]

I would find it most odd if you were instructed to be FL250 by Foyle on a regular basis. In my experience 'slow' climbers are coordinated in the climb every time. There is no standing agreement/agreed level procedure on that route so it is unreasonable to expect anyone to bust a gut to make such a level other than the odd occasion where traffic might dictate it (such as trying to jump traffic routing PTH-GOW at FL230). Even then it should be a request, not an instruction.

Anyway, if you are instructed to make an unreasonable level again, just say you can't do it and the controller concerned will have to adapt his plans accordingly.

Incidentally, a similar situation exists round about the IOM with traffic out of Belfast City. In this instance there is an agreed level between the South West (ScACC) and sector 7 (LACC) secotrs and traffic should be FL290 by KELLY. Alas BMA A321's find this nigh on impossible, especially if there is a tail wind and we invariably have to coordinate the aircraft out of FL260 climbing to 290 with the London boys.

[Kiltie]

All good stuff guys, the betting scenario is hilarious! We are just as tired of our machine's lack of capability as you are. Seriously, this request is being asked of us very regularly now so a word round the ops room as you say would be much appreciated.

Thanks again for your comments.

[mad_jock]

is it true that Alan Mossman managed to out perform the 146 in his glider this week?

MJ

[Kiltie]

To answer AyrATC's question on what we can make by Foyle, use the following equations:

Monday morning+111 pax+IMC=FL190

Tuesday afternoon+56 pax+VMC=FL270

[055166k]

Service Provision

The service I refer to is as follows:...Jet traffic out of EIDW via VATRY and STU climbs to FL230, anything planned lower is ACTed at the lower level. 146's out of EIDW are not expected to make FL230 and so a special 146-friendly procedure of FL190 is used. It is the service provision to the customer that is important and it is a reflection on our professionalism that we recognise that one size does not fit all. I apologise for any ambiguity in the earlier post.