reality of ditching

[purple haze]

im sure this topic has been covered before, so i apologise in advance.

what are the chances of ditching an a/c into the sea safely and passengers surviving on board?

i remember the ethopian a/c ditching and the result was not pretty.

is there any differnce in ditching at sea or on land. i know that at sea u would have to land between the waves, and with the tides rather then against it, and on land gear would be down and sea it would be up.

please correct me if im wrong, and is there any differnce in ditching with differnt a/c types.

cheers.

[airforcenone]

I would imagine that underslung engines would cause horrendous problems in all cases, such as the Ethiopian 767 that you mentioned. Personally, the only succesful ditching I have come across was a Nimrod somewhere near Kinloss a year or two ago. Apparently a textbook ditching, which shows how good the guys are, however the tail still broke off! I have always thought that the safety cards showing Boeings, Airbus et al bobbing merrily in the sea with smiling passengers on the wings were a bit optimistic. Anyone know anything else ....?

[Elevation]

If it ever comes to that, I would rather take my chances with the ground than the sea.
I have heard about 1 successful ditching of a C130 sometime ago. Not too sure about the detail though.
As for today's jet (especially the big ones), the stalling speed is pretty high, so if you have to do it, dump all your fuel.

[Gentleman Aviator]

C-130 guys who ditched had ran out of fuel.

Sensible plan if you HAVE to ditch, just for a little buoyancy!

[Icarus]

http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm

http://airsafe.com/events/ditch.htm


[This message has been edited by Icarus (edited 25 February 2001).]

[Check-in]

Much will depend on whether it's day or dark, and the sea state. A controlled, ie powered, smooth water ditching probably survivable in almost any civil type. Get something with a high wing loading, combine with rough sea, and maybe no power to extend flaps and run landing lights in the dark, and I reckon it would be all over for most occupants due to the airframe breaking up before it came to rest.
Even a docile BN2 Islander can hurt when it hits water at a mere 35 knots, as I know one ferry pilot who had the nose cave in enough to crush his legs when he ditched. And this guy was a past master of ditching, having done it three times before.

[HugMonster]

A guy I used to work with ditched a BN2 off Barbados at night in a reasonably calm sea, with 9 pax on board, not much baggage, and about 2 hours fuel burnt off.

After an engine failure, in a BN2, the remaining engine carries you safely to the scene of the crash.

All got out okay, but the aircraft went down in less than 2 minutes.

All survived until reaching land, when one pap died of hypothermia on the way to hospital.

Another guy I know ditched a Commander off Antigua - ditto seas. He also got out okay. He'd had a total electrics failure, had plenty of fuel. The trouble was, it was in the outer tanks, the transfer valves are electric, so he couldn't get at the fuel...

[This message has been edited by HugMonster (edited 26 February 2001).]

[Matt Black]

I recall the Nimrod ditching a few years back - it stayed intact and floated for some time. Anyone else remember what happened?

[This message has been edited by Matt Black (edited 26 February 2001).]

[Scando]

Actually, I was reading the January issue of FI a few weeks ago, last years accident stats. They had a story of a 707 on approach into some african country (Tanzania?). The CDR handflying the approach and accidently flying into the sea (or lake) short of the field. The aircraft stayed afloat for such a long time, they just towed it in and beached it! I couldn't believe what I was reading.
Surely, some of you have this issue and can verify the story and fill in some details?

[Tor]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Avweb:
In northwestern Tanzania at the lower end of Lake Victoria is Mwanza, a small port city, with a long but narrow runway. A few years back a DC-8 crashed trying to land there and the remains are scattered in various places around the airport. But that's another story.

Last week, at about 2000 local time (i.e., at night), an Arabian registered B707 cargo aircraft was landing to pick up a load of fish. On the first approach the airport lost power and all its lights (a routine experience here),
so the pilot had to go-around until the back-up generators got the lights on.

On the second approach he was much too far to the right & almost took out the small terminal and control tower. Missed approach number two. On the third approach (from over the lake with no visual reference) the
control tower called him to say, "you are too low, pull up," to which the Captain replied, "don't worry, I know what I am doing."

About five kilometers short of the runway, he hit the water, tore off all four engines and the landing gear, but didn't puncture the fuselage. With battery power & the taxi light on, they were picked up by a fishing boat (no injuries).

The following day, it was still afloat, so a tug towed it to shallow water near the airport, where it will probably be a beacon for many years. Maybe the pilot misunderstood where he was supposed to pick up a load of fish?

More pictures at: 707Swim (http://www.avweb.com/articles/707swim/index.html)
</font>

http://www.avweb.com/articles/707swim/images/taat.jpg

[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 26 February 2001).]

[Scando]

Thanks Tor!

Don't worry, I know what I'm doing. LOL. Famous last words.

[Tor]

Yeah - won't certify that it is true, but since no one was hurt it's kind of amuzing.

Amazing that it didn't break up. The recipe must be just to make a completely normal approach when ditching an airliner :) (or do they just don't build aircrafts like they used to do?)

According to Airdisaster (http://www.airdisaster.com) Trans Arabian Air Transport had a fatal crash in 1990 where another 707 decended below the GS and hitted some power lines.



[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 26 February 2001).]

[HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD]

I've still to see details of a modern commercial jet succesfully ditching in the open sea and merrily boarding pax onto rafts a la safety cards.The Nimrod is a military airframe(Dont tell me it's still a comet)and ditched into calm Moray Firth.The others are over/undershoots into calm lakes.Having spent many years at sea I can assure you that the North Atlantic in winter is nothing like the Municipal Pool in Horley!

[Tor]

Wasn't one of the reasons it went so bad with the Ethiopian 767 that they touched with the left wing first? Also I think that the slats/flaps wasn't down.

[Jim lovell]

Anyone remember the story of that DC-9 that ditched in 1970? i think. The DC-9 ditched due to fuel starvation caused by diverting around bad weather and holding/going around for an excessive period of time. The ditching was conducted at night and i think all on board survived although many pax drowned soon after as the a/c sank within minutes. Most pax were rescued . Not sure which airline this was but i think it was someone near St Croix??

[Icarus]

2 May 1970; ALM DC9-33CF; near St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands: The aircraft had departed JFK airport in New York for St. Maarten in the Netherlands Antilles. After three missed approaches, the crew diverted to St. Croix. While en route, the aircraft ran out of fuel and the crew ditched the aircraft. While the flight crew made specific preparations for ditching, the imminent ditching was not communicated to the cabin crew. As a result, several occupants were not belted in at the time of the ditching. The aircraft remained afloat for five to six minutes before sinking in waters about one mile (1600 meters) deep. One of the six crew members and 22 of the 57 passengers were killed. The accident was investigated by the NTSB and the details are available in NTSB report NTSB-AAR-71-8 dated 31 March 1971.

[airforcenone]

If I remember rightly, the other reason the Ethiopian 767 dropped a wing was that the Captain was being attacked by a hijacker at the time .............

[SFly]

AF0 is right you know -- a pilot might find it hard to ditch an aircraft when he is struggling for the controls with a hijacker -- I don't think it was planned -- there's videos of it and I think I would have been a slightly neater affair had the pilot made concious effort to ditch!!!

Anyway, thanks Tor, that's cheered me up no end (I'm flying transatlantic a week from today as a passenger). Nice to know I have a chance if ditching were necessary.

:)
SFly

[TyroPicard]

Seem to recall that the Nimrod was on fire, was deliberately ditched as the crew reckoned the airframe would not hold together long enough to reach ?Kinloss.
TP

[Tor]

I agree, SFly, that circumstances are proably not the best when coping with hijackers additionally.

Anyway, don't get too cheerfull, you'll probably drown anyway should the ditching be succesfull.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/icons/icon2.gif

[This message has been edited by Tor (edited 01 March 2001).]

[Old King Coal]

Gotta say that the ditching scene in the Tom Hanks film 'Castaway' is truly superb (even the cockpit drill during the emergency decent, following the explosive decompression, was a fairly good, e.g. O2 on, straight on down to below 10,000' - but if only somebody had remembered to cancel that blasted bell - theatrical license I suppose ?! ). Now having never done a ditching myself, I can't say if this would be truly what it would be like, but I'd hazard a guess that whom ever put this movie clip together had had a good look at the video of the Ethiopian 767 ditching off the Comoros Islands.

My #1 nightmare is having an airborne fire, but after that it's a ditching on a dark and stormy night - and to say that it would not be nice would to understate it ! Eg. You've ditched (crashed) into the sea, maybe at night in, say, only/just a force 4 wind, outside the air temperature is 3C the sea is 10C - even if you manage to survive long enough to get out of the aircraft, do you really think that you'd be able to stay on the wing ? Also you're soaking wet, and likely to be suffering from shock and maybe injured, just how long do you think you'd survive ?! Yeah those nice little safety-card diagrams showing that post-ditching everybody is sitting on the wing…….. Come on, whose kidding who here ?!

[snooky]

I remember BNOC making a safety film in the early 80s which involved landing an S61 on a lake to demonstrate an evacuation. The aircraft was full of aircrew. The first (32 man) raft went upside down, and punctured on an aerial before it could be used. The second, smaller raft was then successfully used to evacuate, but this punctured on arrival at the shore. The boat engine of the craft which was holding the 61 steady then failed, with a risk of grounding the aircraft on the shore, but it eventually took off safely.
This was all on a nice day on a calm lake, a bit different to a winter's night at sea!

[RVR800]

I recall an incident where an engine
failure on a C-172 resulted in a ditching
on the approach to Edinburgh

The crew swam ashore and the human liver for
transplantion was also rescued and transplanted a few hours after

Looks good on the cv? (if its not fuel)

[This message has been edited by RVR800 (edited 02 March 2001).]

[RATBOY]

This topic was addressed about 6 months ago, I think in this forum.

Bottom line is there are rather few ditchings of jet airliners and the reality will likely be rather different than the cartoons in the seatback cards.

The more usual situation for airliners going in the water seems to be overrun. Believe this has happened a few times at LGA, I recall one at Pensacola Fl in the late 70s/early 80s. And then there was Air Florida's spectacular takeoff and aircraft refusal to fly due to ice at DCA.

[SFly]

Thanks chaps, knew I could rely on you.

Seriously, I think I'm going to be sick.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[Speedbird48]

There was a 707 deliberatly ditched in the Nile South of Khartoum by a Sudan Airways crew.
The airplane was on lease from Air Lingus for the Hadj and was returning from its first trip when the power went off in Khartoum. The Irish crew were still in the Hilton after ferrying it down!!
All got out, only crew on board. The story at the time was that the crew got very low on fuel and with no chance of the lights coming back they found the Nile on the radar and landed in it about 15mls South of town.
I flew over it, it was there for a long time and they recovered the engines as I saw them behind the hanger.
It was said that every mud hut for miles had a triple airline seat with seat belts for a couch!!

[Grandad Flyer]

After seeing the pics of the B707 I have thought about ditching procedures. As mentioned, it was a normal approach with gear DOWN and yet it made a landing OK and floated and the fuselage didn't break up. Yet still the manufacturers say gear up for ditching. I reckon that maybe the gear hitting first absorbs some of the initial impact but also keeps the aircraft in a straight line and a little more stable than if one wing touches down first. Gear breaks off, engines break off, fuselage by now probably very little forward movement.
What do others think?

[Code Blue]

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I reckon that maybe the gear hitting first absorbs some of the initial impact but also keeps the aircraft in a straight line and a little more stable than if one wing touches down first. Gear breaks off, engines break off, fuselage by now probably very little forward movement</font>

There is no doubt at all that the slower the cabin & fuselage hit, the less damage will occur to the occupants. You want to slow down as slowly as possible.

I suppose the issue is how controllable the machine is after the gear digs in. If there is a large nose down moment at that time, would the impact of the nose cause the fuselage to break up and how easy is it to hold the nose off. With regard to lateral stability, how easy is it to keep wings level while the pods get pulled off.

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[email protected]

[purple haze]

good point grandad, as SOP say that gear should be up on emergency decent on water, but surely with gear down the fuselage would take less impact, perhaps anyone could comment further?

[EI - E I - O]

The bottom line is their built to fly not crash!

[Propellerhead]

I heard that the Ethiopian Air ran out of fuel due to draining one of the tanks with fuel still left in the other (forgot about the cross-feed being open maybe?) That's why it dropped the wing. Can't blame him though, as his FO had a fire axe through his head. Not much cross-monitoring going on.

Also heard one about a US C-130 successfully ditching in the sea. The Air Force / Navy decided to run a trial by deliberately ditching another C-130 to study the effects. Unfortunately everyoe died. Don't know if it's true or not.

[FasterFaster]

I spent a lot of time watching TV at BAe Prestwick, waiting for the crosswind to drop below about 600kt so I could do an IR test.

On an episode of Quincy, the great investigative coroner was called upon as an expert witness in an aviation-related case, and testified to the effect that no-one has ever been saved by the liferafts in an airliner.

Quincy said it, that settles it.

[Smurfjet]

Re. Ditching with the gears down, if I remeber correctly the 707 Undercarriage, especially the nose gear, don't extend that much from the fuselage, so not sure that they helped in damping the initial impact? Comments?

[yowie]

The Ethiopian Capt was fighting off the hijacker just about the time he was trying to flare I beleive,which would have it extremely difficult to get down evenly-not sure of a/c config or if he had hydraulics.Heard most of the pax survived the impact but drowned because they inflated their lifejackets inside the a/c and couldn't get to the exits as it sank.
Also heard of bizjet(falcon/sabre type?)successfully ditching near a major shipping channel(dont know which bit of water)and the local navy having to come and sink it after a few days(weeks?).

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the force,it really sucks

[Trash Hauler]

I have been in many a discussion re ditching. (Fly C130)

The only ditchings that have occurred were either

1. Out of fuel; or
2. In a world of hurt before the ditching.

The bottom line is this. If you are over land you will do anything to put down on a strip. Same for over water keep it going as long as possible. Only when the situation is dire would you consider ditching (or crash landing)

I hope none of you out there or myself for that matter end up in that situation because if things are that bad we probably will not survive.

Cheers

[RATBOY]

Re bizjet successsful ditching.

FAA lost a flight check Sabreliner a number of years ago from Acension to Brazil when he ran out of gas. Ditched into the Atlantic near the coast (apparantly found the country but not the airport). Crew of three got out, one died of injuries in the raft, a/c sank like a stone.

Trashhauler has it right, ditching is a last resort and a crapshoot with the odds very in the house's favor.

[airforcenone]

RVR800,

The C172 which went into the Firth of Forth was G-GRAY which I had the joy of flying a few days before. Can't remember the exact circumstances but somehow the engine came to bits. The guy who was flying it was an instructor of mine at the time and I think he received an award from GAPAN for his efforts.

[Tor]

If you have a double engine failure on an ETOPS flight over ocean, ditching, to me, seems to be the only resort!

Taking the fact into consideration that every day many ETOPS flights are made over the Atlantic, it's just a question of time before something happens (if not already?).

So it's an interesting subject, "how to ditch perfectly".

[dusk2dawn]

"how to ditch perfectly" is described in the AOM/Emergency/Abnormal checklists.